How much doping really helps?

[Dr. Maserati]

Lets look at the power argument the other way.
If you dont have it, you will be losing minutes every day.
You might be sleeping soundly and waking fresh as a daisy, but you just can't compete. If you don't undestand the term threshold power, look it up.


"Because Hampstens 7th in 93 showed he would win the Giro 5 years earlier??"
No but it did show POTENTIAL, that is what this whole discussion is about.


!....which shows, as I said earlier, people who can do well in a GT can do well in a 7 day race"
Or it shows that the attributes necessary to compete in events like Paris Nice are the same as those necessary to compete in GTs.
See? we can go around all day like this.

Pascal Richard didn't go on to win any GTs, but he was reaching the peak of his career rather than just starting it.

As much as you try and turn the discussion, I am not arguing that LA is a nailed on GT winner because he competed well in short stage races.
His rides just show POTENTIAL.

Right - so Hampsten in 88 after winning the Giro said "This win shows I have the potential to crack the top 10 in Paris Nice in a few years time - as long as I can keep my threshold firepower within threshold firepower limits'.....

Pascal Richard peak was Tour de Suisse?? Not the Tour? But if he could peak for a 10 day race its just the same as a 21 day race surely?

No - you can go around this all day - doing well in a 21 day race shows POTENTIAL to win a 21 day race.
Doing well in a 7 day race shows POTENTIAL to win a 7 day race.

 

[Benotti69]

I am not sugesting anything "automatically" indicates 3 week racing success

As far as LA's early results meaning we would have to list 50\60 guys as having the same potential...
I agree he would be one of several riders with potential, but nothing like those numbers.

There may be a handful of first and second year pros with the same sort of results, but a World RR champs, alongside the stage race results, set him apart.

How does that set him apart to win 7TdFs let alone 1?

So Thor is gonna win this years or should be up there.

Riis, Indurain and Gunderson all have something in common big use EPO winners.

 

[Merckx index]

There is evidence that he was actually doing MORE EPO pre cancer than during or after cancer. Ferarri toned it down after. Lance switched to blood transfusions after the EPO test was introduced.

Fixed that. But you're right that he was doing plenty of EPO pre-cancer, and there is no evidence I know that he was doing more after cancer. Or that he got a larger HT boost from anything he was doing after cancer.

Before cancer, he did not do any of these (except the PEDS).
After cancer he did.
There is a very important lesson to be learned = its not about the PEDs
see below...the list of post cancer winning attributes:

1) Post Cancer Mind-Body Transformation - Body transformation, maybe; mind transformation, definitely, but then no. 2 and some others on this list are redundant.
2) Lazer-Like Focus on the TdF - Agree but redundant with 1)
3) His Team Mates - Agree, but should amend to his juiced teammates
4) Training Training Training Training - Agree. Not clear he trained more than his rivals, but more than he did before, yes.
5) Training at Altitude - see 4)
6) EPO/Blood Doping - of course
7)Tactical Genius for a DS - Highly debatable. Will agree that JB was the right DS for LA, they had great chemistry
8) Focus on Diet, Weighing his Food, Targeted Weight Loss - see 4)
9) Higher Cadence -If it really made that much difference he would have discovered that sooner.
10) Sleeping in a Tent - Studies show it doesn't help that much. A little, but nowhere near as much as blood doping.
11) Race Course Recons - see 4)
12) Assos Chamois Creme - Well, I knew this list was going to start devolving into silliness after 10 or so reasonable points.
13) Inspiration & Motivation from the Fan's - see 10)
14) High Pain Threshold - higher than before? If so, then redundant with 1)
15) Mental Tenacity - redundant with 1)
16) Savvy Businessman ie bribes and "politics" - Remains to be proven. If he had such a good doping program, he wouldn't need to do this.
17) Wind tunnel testing - see 4)
18) Best Wheelsets - See 12)
19) Aero Dimples on his shorts - See 12)
20) Support from his families - Had it before
21) Completely selfish, self absorbed, dedicated, complete determination to win,24-7 - Some of this he had before, rest redundant with 1)
22) Sleeps like a baby without anxiety - Had it before
23) ETC

One of your better posts, Polish.

 

[andy1234]

Right - so Hampsten in 88 after winning the Giro said "This win shows I have the potential to crack the top 10 in Paris Nice in a few years time - as long as I can keep my threshold firepower within threshold firepower limits'.....

Pascal Richard peak was Tour de Suisse?? Not the Tour? But if he could peak for a 10 day race its just the same as a 21 day race surely?

No - you can go around this all day - doing well in a 21 day race shows POTENTIAL to win a 21 day race.
Doing well in a 7 day race shows POTENTIAL to win a 7 day race.

Keep using the word firepower, you obviously like it.

Richard was at the peak of his career, not peaking for the race. Understood?

If a 7 day stage race is no predictor of talent in 21 day stage races, then the whole premise of the Tour de l’Avenir is seriously flawed.
All of those team directors who signed riders off the back of their results in it were just barking up the wrong tree.

 

[Polish]

Speaking of the 1994 TdS.

Armstrong lost about 1.40 to Boardman in a 30k TT and lost 2.30 to the best on the only MTF.

While these results are ok, they are hardly suggest that this guy would win 7 Tours in a row.

GunderBoy did not care about the 94 TdS.
Like Andy Schleck at an Amgen Tour of California.
Just there for the titties and cheese.

Kidding, kidding.
Of course Lance tried to win.
He always tries to win. Anything else is FAIL.
Top25 in a TdF @38yrs old, ahead of Cadel and Brad is FAIL to Lance.
I thought it was epic though!

But you can NOT win everything.
Maybe Lance was not feeling well? The Squirts maybe?

You can't win them all.
Even King Eddy came in 7th place now and then.
King Eddy knows that Lance is awesome.
King Eddy knows.

 

[pmcg76]

I am not sugesting anything "automatically" indicates 3 week racing success

As far as LA's early results meaning we would have to list 50\60 guys as having the same potential...
I agree he would be one of several riders with potential, but nothing like those numbers.

There may be a handful of first and second year pros with the same sort of results, but a World RR champs, alongside the stage race results, set him apart.

Foregt the World title, that has no bearing on stage race potential. Nada. Do people even know the circumstances of his 93 worlds victory. The race was held on a skating ring with riders crashing, right left and centre. A lot of guys had abandoned long before the finish. Armstrong was in the lead group with the other big names, Lance gambled and attacked, rather than chase, the big favourites looked at each other to chase letting Lance escape to the title.

It is a one day race, anything can happen. Its not like Lance simply rode everyone of his wheel a la Hinault at Sallanches or Gibert recently. He gambled and he won, fair play it was a big deal for a guy so young to win. He also benefited from not being a super favourite, this situation happens all the time in one day races. Just look at Flanders, Roubaix this year, is somebody honestly going to tell me Nuyens, Van Summeren were the strongest guys in those races.

Circumstance as much as strength are a big part of winning the worlds each year. Worlds are won like that all the time, Roche in 87, Fondriest in 88, LeMond in 89, Dhaenans in 90. How did Lance not win the Olympic title in 92 when he was 'The favourite' and then win a Pro title a year later. Too many people rate the Worlds as some automatic sign of greatness even though there have been plenty of lucky winners.

If you are putting forward his early stage race results as proof of potential, then the group would be 50/60 guys. Saronni, Maertens x 2, Criquelion, Argentin, Fondriest, Dhaenans, Museeuw, Brochard, Camenzind, Freire, Vainsteins, Astarloa all won World titles but done very little at the Tour.

 

[pmcg76]

Ok, if we allow for the fact that Lance's early stage race results showed some potential along with 50 other guys, what then happens is that they all go the major Tour's to see if this is real GT potential or just regular potential as a racer. Sepereating the contenders from the pretenders so to speak.

The likes of LeMond, Fignon, Roche, Schleck showed they had real GT potential whilst most of the others failed marking them out as pretenders i.e they didnt have GT potential but could develop in other areas. Simple really.

 

[andy1234]

Ok, if we allow for the fact that Lance's early stage race results showed some potential along with 50 other guys, what then happens is that they all go the major Tour's to see if this is real GT potential or just regular potential as a racer. Sepereating the contenders from the pretenders so to speak.

The likes of LeMond, Fignon, Roche, Schleck showed they had real GT potential whilst most of the others failed marking them out as pretenders i.e they didnt have GT potential but could develop in other areas. Simple really.

**polish\flicker mode on** Except none of those real GT riders went on to win 7 TDFs.**polish\flicker mode off**

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Keep using the word firepower, you obviously like it.

Richard was at the peak of his career, not peaking for the race. Understood?

If a 7 day stage race is no predictor of talent in 21 day stage races, then the whole premise of the Tour de l’Avenir is seriously flawed.
All of those team directors who signed riders off the back of their results in it were just barking up the wrong tree.

And Richards peak was......? Suisse? Why not the Tour, its only 11 days longer.

The Tour de l’Avenir - (the Tour of the Future), was a 14 day race over a difficult parcours and for many years it was restricted to riders under 23. Which is why it became an excellent way to judge future potential.

 

[andy1234]

And Richards peak was......? Suisse? Why not the Tour, its only 11 days longer.

The Tour de l’Avenir - (the Tour of the Future), was a 14 day race over a difficult parcours and for many years it was restricted to riders under 23. Which is why it became an excellent way to judge future potential.

Surely it would only predict success in a two week tour then?
How can a two week race possibly translate to potential in a three week tour?

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Surely it would only predict success in a two week tour then?
How can a two week race possibly translate to potential in a three week tour?

A 2 week* race is twice as long as a 1 week* race.
(Remember - 1 week = 7 days)

 

[andy1234]

A 2 week* race is twice as long as a 1 week* race.
(Remember - 1 week = 7 days)

And a 2 week tour is only 2 thirds of a 3 week tour.

Thats less, you know.

Again how could that possibly translate???

 

[Dr. Maserati]

And a 2 week tour is only 2 thirds of a 3 week tour.

Thats less, you know.

Again how could that possibly translate???

Because as a longer race (14 > 7) one can see how a rider recovers from the accumulation of racing days.
Also as l'Avenir often went over many hard climbs in the Alps its parcours closely resembled that of GT's.

 

[andy1234]

Because as a longer race (14 > 7) one can see how a rider recovers from the accumulation of racing days.
Also as l'Avenir often went over many hard climbs in the Alps its parcours closely resembled that of GT's.

I obviously should have finished my last post with a sarcastic smiley.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

I obviously should have finished my last post with a sarcastic smiley.

Obviously

 

[Polish]

Whatever happened to your speil* of "most tested athlete" and "never tested positive"...
Keep polishing it.
.

What does "most tested" have to do with this thread?

That was the topic of this thread:
http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showthread.php?t=12437
which was "locked" after it became increasingly obvious that Lance WAS the most tested ever.

I bet this thread will get locked too after it becomes increasingly obvious that Lance was not transformed into a grand Tour Winner by PEDS lol.

 

[Franklin]

Indurain another rider who EPO'd the TdF and his wins.

Oh FFS, stop it with falsifying history to make a point... Miguel Indurain was seen as a future GT winner from the get-go and was specifically brought slowly. Every pundit was already waiting for Big Mig to take over.

The idea that he became a GT winner out of the blue just because of Epo is just false. Using these kind of arguments just invalidates the whole argument.

He is incomparable with Lance (who wasn't seen as a GT winner).

 

[ultimobici]

Oh FFS, stop it with falsifying history to make a point... Miguel Indurain was seen as a future GT winner from the get-go and was specifically brought slowly. Every pundit was already waiting for Big Mig to take over.

The idea that he became a GT winner out of the blue just because of Epo is just false. Using these kind of arguments just invalidates the whole argument.

He is incomparable with Lance (who wasn't seen as a GT winner).

No one outside of Spain even considered Indurain at all, let alone as a potential winner, until his 1990 stage win at Luz Ardiden.

The only rider considered as a Tour contender was Perico and Indurain was merely his Lieutenant. He may have had the potential to win but his nature ensured he was overlooked. But to believe that he was not assisted by EPO is naive.

 

[andy1234]

No one outside of Spain even considered Indurain at all, let alone as a potential winner, [/B]until his 1990 stage win at Luz Ardiden.

The only rider considered as a Tour contender was Perico and Indurain was merely his Lieutenant. He may have had the potential to win but his nature ensured he was overlooked. But to believe that he was not assisted by EPO is naive.

Winning the 86 Tour de l'Avenir singled him out as a potential tour winner.
I remember an article on him that year, calling him the next big thing.

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

Yeah sure. Indurain was the next big thing.... He came from nowhere to beat the field in ITT by 3 mins and producing 500 Watts in Mountain stages. OMG. He IS the first true Epo Champ. No more, no less.

 

[Franklin]

Yeah sure. Indurain was the next big thing.... He came from nowhere to beat the field in ITT by 3 mins and producing 500 Watts in Mountain stages. OMG. He IS the first true Epo Champ. No more, no less.

He was an Epo champ, but he was also being heralded as the next big thing for years.

No one outside of Spain even considered Indurain at all, let alone as a potential winner, until his 1990 stage win at Luz Ardiden.

The only rider considered as a Tour contender was Perico and Indurain was merely his Lieutenant. He may have had the potential to win but his nature ensured he was overlooked. But to believe that he was not assisted by EPO is naive.

Those who say he was unknown outside of Spain flat out don't know what they are talking about. I am Dutch and I remember the articles and the whispering about him. I personally didn't see it at all... but many, many others did see it coming a mile away. Denying this is quite frankly ridiculous.

I'm sorry, but Indurain was seen from the get go as potential GT winner. Lance wasn't.

 

[patricknd]

Yeah sure. Indurain was the next big thing.... He came from nowhere to beat the field in ITT by 3 mins and producing 500 Watts in Mountain stages. OMG. He IS the first true Epo Champ. No more, no less.

no way. everyone knows epo wasn't invented until after gl retired, proving once and for all he didn't use it. or wait, was that blood transfusions?

 

[Mambo95]

He was an Epo champ, but he was also being heralded as the next big thing for years.


Those who say he was unknown outside of Spain flat out don't know what they are talking about. I am Dutch and I remember the articles and the whispering about him. I personally didn't see it at all... but many, many others did see it coming a mile away. Denying this is quite frankly ridiculous.

I'm sorry, but Indurain was seen from the get go as potential GT winner.

Indeed. By the time he won that stage in 1990, he had already won Paris-Nice (twice), Tour of Catalunya, Tour of Murica, Criterium International and the Tour de l'Avenir). He was hardly a nobody.

He may well have used EPO, but the talent was there for all to see.

 

[andy1234]

Yeah sure. Indurain was the next big thing.... He came from nowhere to beat the field in ITT by 3 mins and producing 500 Watts in Mountain stages. OMG. He IS the first true Epo Champ. No more, no less.

Im not sure many people would argue that Mig was EPO'd up for his tour wins, but he WAS the next big thing....

His first pro win (in his first pro race) came in a time trial in the 84 L'avenir against noted TT riders Jean-François Bernard and Charly Mottet.
No EPO around then either....

 

[Benotti69]

Cancellara 1.86 m (6 ft 1 in)82 kg (180 lb; 12.9 st) is the best TTer in the world currently but he aint gonna win the TdF 5 times. Maybe with a 60% HCT he could, considering his muscle mass, similar to Indurain 1.88 m (6 ft 2 in) 80 kg (176 lbs).