How much doping really helps?

Page 2 - Get up to date with the latest news, scores & standings from the Cycling News Community.
Jun 15, 2009
8,529
1
0
andy1234 said:
Its interesting that you miss off Indurain in your list of GT greats, who were seen as contenders from their first TDF.
Indurain wasn't an automatic GT choice, but he did OK in the end.:)

If you describe Armstrong as an average rider, as you did in your previous post, maybe you should state "average GT rider" if that is what you mean.

Andy we had this discussion 1.000 times. You can´t twist reality. Armstrong profited like no one else from chemicals. Indeed he is the only one of two riders to transform from a also ran in the hills (finishing with the same time as the Zabels) to a CG-Contender*.

Poupou didn´t mention Indurain because of obvious reasons. He´s the first true Epo-Champion. Even tough his improvements were not as stark as those of Armstrong. BTW, Indurain was not a contender in his first GT´s as the other mentioned riders.

(* the other is Rijs)
 
Apr 19, 2010
1,845
0
10,480
FoxxyBrown1111 said:
Andy we had this discussion 1.000 times. You can´t twist reality. Armstrong profited like no one else from chemicals. Indeed he is the only one of two riders to transform from a also ran in the hills (finishing with the same time as the Zabels) to a CG-Contender*.

Poupou didn´t mention Indurain because of obvious reasons. He´s the first true Epo-Champion. Even tough his improvements were not as stark as those of Armstrong. BTW, Indurain was not a contender in his first GT´s as the other mentioned riders.

(* the other is Rijs)

I don't want to spark of another LA debate, and I agree with most of what you are saying.
The benefit that one rider gets from doping as opposed to another is difficult to calculate without the collaboration of the riders in question. We know that isn't going to happen, so it's all guesswork.

My only point is that LA was a leading rider from the start.
There are no average world RR and TDF stage winners, especially in their first full year as a pro. Top 3 in the Tour du pont and Tour of Sweden in that same season shows he wasn't Just a one day rider.

A GT contender against other doped riders,later in his career? it's a stretch, but who knows.
 
Jul 20, 2009
102
0
0
FoxxyBrown1111 said:
As i said earlier: A rider doesn´t make a Mathmatican. I used Järmann as example for being clever not to take all BS, but the necessariy stuff. No more, no less.

I tought my example of Herrara made it clear, that history has shown that times didn´t got faster by 10% in the Epo-Era. If that´s too small sample sizes for you, just look at the Avg.-Speeds of the decades. No big jumps there as the riders made you to think.

I believe that Epo gives a 10-15% gain. By that I mean that it can take a rider from 6.0watt/kg to 6.6-6.9w/kg, which is pretty consistent with the power numbers(calculations) I have seen from the 90's. The point here: 6.0->6.6 is 10% performance gain, however it will not translate to 10% faster times. Even on climbs the riders have to overcome wind resistance.
 
Jul 19, 2009
949
0
0
One more point about blood doping, it seems that the biggest riders have more benefits from blood doping than the lighters.
 
Jun 15, 2009
8,529
1
0
sadfitty said:
I believe that Epo gives a 10-15% gain. By that I mean that it can take a rider from 6.0watt/kg to 6.6-6.9w/kg, which is pretty consistent with the power numbers(calculations) I have seen from the 90's. The point here: 6.0->6.6 is 10% performance gain, however it will not translate to 10% faster times. Even on climbs the riders have to overcome wind resistance.

You have a link for that? With some hard numbers, no guesses by riders... Thanks
 
May 18, 2009
3,757
0
0
FoxxyBrown1111 said:
Which shows that riders are not necessarily mathematicans.
Just for example, in 1986 Herrara had an Avg.-Speed of 19,8 km/h on his way up Alpe d Huez, without Epo, Extra-Blood, HGH and whatever (only pure Amphetamins and some else little pills, but surely no steroids), but he certainly had a heavy bike.

Now what would 15% mean? A Avg.-Speed of 22,8 km/h. In Minutes: Instead of Herraras 41.50 ride, the ride would be 36.15. Hillarious.

On a lighter bike Pantani, full pumped to 50+% hct still needed 37.35 for his record 11 years later.

Doping helps, but it´s wayyy overrated by those addicted riders who are just sad junkies.

While we're on the subject of providing links to back up our assertions, can you point me in the right direction to confirm what you say above? Thanks.
 
May 18, 2009
3,757
0
0
FoxxyBrown1111 said:
Oh yeah Chris. But please change your avatar before. Thanks too.

OK done.

Now will you provide the link or whatever proof you have to back up what you are saying? Thanks.
 
Jul 22, 2009
754
1
0
Doping helps A LOT. Riders minimize its benefits, but in profesional cycling you're talking about making the difference between a middle-of-the-pack/retire-after-7-stages rider into a GT contender.
 
Mar 6, 2009
4,602
504
17,080
To me, the problem with blood doping, EPO etc is that it is so distorted, it is difficult to make clear assumptions. I think different cyclists have got different benefits from blood doping. I think utilizing blood doping correctly is a big help.

I always take the example of two Danish riders, Riis & Skibby whose careers run cuncurrently and who both admitted to doping with EPO. They both started their pro careers in 86 with small Belgian teams and up until the 90s, Skibby was clearly the better rider finishing 3rd in a Tour TT in 87 and making the Top 30 on GC as a young rider. According to Skibby, he didnt start doping until 1990.

Riis was scrambling around on various teams not showing anything and was lucky to be picked up by Systeme U at the last minute in 89 and he then won a stage at the Giro but finished one place ahead of Paul Kimmage in the GC IN 88th place or something.

Move to the 90s, Riis moves to Ariostea and starts to improve rapidly finishing 5th in the 93 Tour. Meanwhile Skibby who admitted to using EPO from 93 on only manages to pick up stage wins in GTs and doesnt improve significantly. So what is the difference in these two riders? Why was Skibby clearly the better pre-EPO and why did Riis improve so much with EPO? Was it because Riis was using Cecchini whilst Skibby was doing it by himself?

To me, EPO changed the sport and distorted it so much that it has become impossible to predict with any accuracy, how doping benefits different riders.
 
Mar 6, 2009
4,602
504
17,080
I have decided to draw up a list of Tour winners before and during the EPO era. These are the based on the riders first Tour performance and their age at that time for the pre-EPO era. I have then made a comparison with how EPO era winners compared at the same age. Draw your own conclusions.

Pre EPO Tour winners and a few others in the 80s:
Bernard HinaultTour de France 1st Age 23years 8months

Laurent FignonTour de France 1st Age 22yrs 11months

Greg LeMondTour de France 3rd Age 23yrs 1Month

Stephen RocheTour de France 13th Age 23yrs 8months

Pedro DelgadoTour de France 15th Age 23yrs 3months

Andy HampstenTour de France 4th Age 24yrs 4months

Robert MillarTour de France 14th Age 24yrs 10months

Peter WinnenTour de France 5th Age 23yrs 10months

EPO era Tour winners with age and performance progression

Miguel Indurain
Tour 85-DNF Age 21
Tour 86-DNF Age 22
Tour 87-97th Age 23
Tour 88-47th Age 24

Bjarne Riis
Tour 89-95th Age 25yrs 3months
Tour 91-107th Age 27yrs 3months

Lance Armstrong
Tour 93-DNF Age 21yrs 10months
Tour 94-DNF Age 22yrs 10months
Tour 95-36th Age 23yrs 10months

Of course Jan Ullrich finished 2nd in his first Tour aged 22yrs 7months and Marco Pantani was 3rd in his first Tour aged 24yrs 6months having already finished on the podium in the Giro the same year.
 
Mar 6, 2009
4,602
504
17,080
andy1234 said:
I don't want to spark of another LA debate, and I agree with most of what you are saying.
The benefit that one rider gets from doping as opposed to another is difficult to calculate without the collaboration of the riders in question. We know that isn't going to happen, so it's all guesswork.

My only point is that LA was a leading rider from the start.
There are no average world RR and TDF stage winners, especially in their first full year as a pro. Top 3 in the Tour du pont and Tour of Sweden in that same season shows he wasn't Just a one day rider.

A GT contender against other doped riders,later in his career? it's a stretch, but who knows.

Sorry but using Du Pont and Tour of Sweden as proof of stage race potential is just laughable. If you had said Settimana Bergamasque in 91, I might have give it some credit but not the two races you mentioned. I think Motorola were the only pro team to turn up in Sweden at a pro-am race. Du Pont was stronger but when you have guys like Atle Kvalsvoll finishing on the podium, then the quality aint too high.
 
Aug 13, 2009
12,854
2
0
Like all drugs each person responds differently. Some see huge gains others see none.

A couple of good studies that showed widely different responses to EPO

http://www.springerlink.com/content/bny7bu1p3b4y8nc7/

http://www.springerlink.com/content/a7767vrr736073k3/

The Science of sport has done a few good posts on this
http://www.sportsscientists.com/2007/06/drugs-work-but-by-how-much-look-at.html

http://www.sportsscientists.com/2007/11/effect-of-epo-on-performance-who.html

Aldo Sassi Says EPO gives a 5-15% improvement
http://www.pezcyclingnews.com/?pg=fullstory&id=6718

If you read Dutch this book has some good studies that show an 8-13% improvement
http://www.bol.com/nl/p/nederlandse-boeken/bloedvorm/1001004006915550/index.html#product_images

JV wrote this recently


From a o2 uptake standpoint the percentage gain is about half of the increase in total hemoglobin mass. So, in modern day where the bio-passport would prevent any huge jumps in Hb, say you increased from 14g/dl to 15g/dl (this all assumes that plasma volume is totally stable, which is a very big assumption and almost impossible...but anyway..)..This would bring about a total Hb increase of 6.7%, so the o2 carrying capacity increase and corresponding power increase would be about half of that, so 3.35%. Of course, in 1996, you could go from 14g/dl to 19g/dl quite easily, yielding a power increase of more like 13%! There is some diminishing return after about 16g/dl however because the red cells become so crowded they can no longer deliver oxygen as efficiently, so maybe "only" 10%.

Ok, so there's the clinical math. One thing not taken into consideration into this is that Hb is a protein that would, in theory, serve as a lactate buffer. So, there is also some undetermined anearobic advantage in addition to just the o2 carrying increase. In a race where repeated anearobic efforts are required and recovery from those efforts are required, over and over, there will be some culmulative advantage as well.

Also, an old Finnish study (if you can find it) found that athletes with higher Vo2 maxes benefitted less from EPO use than those who started with lower Vo2 maxes. The more talented athlete were (generally) benefitting less. Another observation of that study was that ectomorphic body types showed less increase than mesomorphic types. So, the variables on the exact advantage are endless and vary person to person (A BIG counterpoint to the argument that just letting everyone dope is fair). I read this study in about 1995 and haven't seen it anywhere since, so i cant find a link, sorry...

in any case, my guess is, in a 40km time trial scenario, I think the current day anti-doping efforts blunt any advantage of blood doping to very minimal and would be easily displaced by better aerodynamics, training, etc... The risk vs reward would no longer make any logical sense in modern day, if the effort was strictly o2 based. However, in a race requiring multiple anearobic efforts, this advantage would, theoretically, increase. How much? I don't know.

Response to dope is a key ingredient to success....but so is advanced notice of testing, erasing of positive tests, and access to the best doping programs.
Basically many of the champions of the last 20 years have been chemically manufactured.
 
May 27, 2010
6,333
3
17,485
pmcg76 said:
I have decided to draw up a list of Tour winners before and during the EPO era. These are the based on the riders first Tour performance and their age at that time for the pre-EPO era. I have then made a comparison with how EPO era winners compared at the same age. Draw your own conclusions.

Pre EPO Tour winners and a few others in the 80s:
Bernard HinaultTour de France 1st Age 23years 8months

Laurent FignonTour de France 1st Age 22yrs 11months

Greg LeMondTour de France 3rd Age 23yrs 1Month

Stephen RocheTour de France 13th Age 23yrs 8months

Pedro DelgadoTour de France 15th Age 23yrs 3months

Andy HampstenTour de France 4th Age 24yrs 4months

Robert MillarTour de France 14th Age 24yrs 10months

Peter WinnenTour de France 5th Age 23yrs 10months

EPO era Tour winners with age and performance progression

Miguel Indurain
Tour 85-DNF Age 21
Tour 86-DNF Age 22
Tour 87-97th Age 23
Tour 88-47th Age 24

Bjarne Riis
Tour 89-95th Age 25yrs 3months
Tour 91-107th Age 27yrs 3months

Lance Armstrong
Tour 93-DNF Age 21yrs 10months
Tour 94-DNF Age 22yrs 10months
Tour 95-36th Age 23yrs 10months

Of course Jan Ullrich finished 2nd in his first Tour aged 22yrs 7months and Marco Pantani was 3rd in his first Tour aged 24yrs 6months having already finished on the podium in the Giro the same year.

I think I get and agree with your underlying theme. Honestly, though, all I get out of this is that at age 21 you will DNF.

Dave.
 
Jun 15, 2009
8,529
1
0
pmcg76 said:
I have decided to draw up a list of Tour winners before and during the EPO era. These are the based on the riders first Tour performance and their age at that time for the pre-EPO era. I have then made a comparison with how EPO era winners compared at the same age. Draw your own conclusions.

Pre EPO Tour winners and a few others in the 80s:
Bernard HinaultTour de France 1st Age 23years 8months

Laurent FignonTour de France 1st Age 22yrs 11months

Greg LeMondTour de France 3rd Age 23yrs 1Month

Stephen RocheTour de France 13th Age 23yrs 8months

Pedro DelgadoTour de France 15th Age 23yrs 3months

Andy HampstenTour de France 4th Age 24yrs 4months

Robert MillarTour de France 14th Age 24yrs 10months

Peter WinnenTour de France 5th Age 23yrs 10months

EPO era Tour winners with age and performance progression

Miguel Indurain
Tour 85-DNF Age 21
Tour 86-DNF Age 22
Tour 87-97th Age 23
Tour 88-47th Age 24

Bjarne Riis
Tour 89-95th Age 25yrs 3months
Tour 91-107th Age 27yrs 3months

Lance Armstrong
Tour 93-DNF Age 21yrs 10months
Tour 94-DNF Age 22yrs 10months
Tour 95-36th Age 23yrs 10months

Of course Jan Ullrich finished 2nd in his first Tour aged 22yrs 7months and Marco Pantani was 3rd in his first Tour aged 24yrs 6months having already finished on the podium in the Giro the same year.

Great work. :)

It shows how grumpy old man got a 2nd Chance (if good responders), while before Epo "talent showed early" (quote Lemond; it´s so true in every sport).

Ullrich was great from the start, winning vs. 3 year older guys on sport shoes with a street bike. As said, in Paradise Ullrich wins 10 in a row and we wouldn´t talk about that guy from Texas so much.
 
Apr 19, 2010
1,845
0
10,480
pmcg76 said:
I have decided to draw up a list of Tour winners before and during the EPO era. These are the based on the riders first Tour performance and their age at that time for the pre-EPO era. I have then made a comparison with how EPO era winners compared at the same age. Draw your own conclusions.

Pre EPO Tour winners and a few others in the 80s:
Bernard HinaultTour de France 1st Age 23years 8months

Laurent FignonTour de France 1st Age 22yrs 11months

Greg LeMondTour de France 3rd Age 23yrs 1Month

Stephen RocheTour de France 13th Age 23yrs 8months

Pedro DelgadoTour de France 15th Age 23yrs 3months

Andy HampstenTour de France 4th Age 24yrs 4months

Robert MillarTour de France 14th Age 24yrs 10months

Peter WinnenTour de France 5th Age 23yrs 10months

EPO era Tour winners with age and performance progression

Miguel Indurain
Tour 85-DNF Age 21
Tour 86-DNF Age 22
Tour 87-97th Age 23
Tour 88-47th Age 24

Bjarne Riis
Tour 89-95th Age 25yrs 3months
Tour 91-107th Age 27yrs 3months

Lance Armstrong
Tour 93-DNF Age 21yrs 10months
Tour 94-DNF Age 22yrs 10months
Tour 95-36th Age 23yrs 10months

Of course Jan Ullrich finished 2nd in his first Tour aged 22yrs 7months and Marco Pantani was 3rd in his first Tour aged 24yrs 6months having already finished on the podium in the Giro the same year.

Contador fits the profile of the pre EPO tour winners nicely, so I'm not sure what to make of that.
 

Polish

BANNED
Mar 11, 2009
3,853
1
0
pmcg76 said:
I have decided to draw up a list of Tour winners before and during the EPO era. These are the based on the riders first Tour performance and their age at that time for the pre-EPO era. I have then made a comparison with how EPO era winners compared at the same age. Draw your own conclusions.

Pre EPO Tour winners and a few others in the 80s:
Bernard HinaultTour de France 1st Age 23years 8months

Laurent FignonTour de France 1st Age 22yrs 11months

Greg LeMondTour de France 3rd Age 23yrs 1Month

Stephen RocheTour de France 13th Age 23yrs 8months

Pedro DelgadoTour de France 15th Age 23yrs 3months

Andy HampstenTour de France 4th Age 24yrs 4months

Robert MillarTour de France 14th Age 24yrs 10months

Peter WinnenTour de France 5th Age 23yrs 10months

EPO era Tour winners with age and performance progression

Miguel Indurain
Tour 85-DNF Age 21
Tour 86-DNF Age 22
Tour 87-97th Age 23
Tour 88-47th Age 24

Bjarne Riis
Tour 89-95th Age 25yrs 3months
Tour 91-107th Age 27yrs 3months

Lance Armstrong
Tour 93-DNF Age 21yrs 10months
Tour 94-DNF Age 22yrs 10months
Tour 95-36th Age 23yrs 10months

Of course Jan Ullrich finished 2nd in his first Tour aged 22yrs 7months and Marco Pantani was 3rd in his first Tour aged 24yrs 6months having already finished on the podium in the Giro the same year.

Wow, plenty of quality riders on that list.

Of course, Lance started kicking *** younger than any of them....

Lance started a Tdf younger than any of them...
Lance won a TdF stage younger than any of them...
Lance won a Road World Championship younger than any of them...
Lance won the Fleche Wallone younger than any of them...
Lance won the coveted Ardennes Trophy younger than any of them...
Lance won a Road National Championship younger than them all...

Lance had incredible palmares in those three odd short years before his cancer.
 
Mar 6, 2009
4,602
504
17,080
danjo007 said:
look at contador..

Contador
Tour 05-31st Age 22yrs 6months
Tour 07-1st Age 24yrs 6months

Dont know what this suggests really, 2005 was his first year after he had undergone surgery for his cerebral problems. He had missed most of the 2004 season but still had some promising results in 2005. He won Catalan week, finished 3rd in Basque Country and 4th in Romandy taking stages in all three races. All races GC riders usually do well in.

If you are suggesting he didnt do well in his first Tour, then that is a valid point but I think Heras was designated team leader of Liberty Seguros in 05, so I would imagine he was riding for Heras. I know he didnt come into that Tour with big expectations anyway. Of course he missed 06 race becasue of Puerto.
 
Jul 15, 2010
464
0
0
Polish said:
Wow, plenty of quality riders on that list.

Of course, Lance started kicking *** younger than any of them....

Lance started a Tdf younger than any of them...
Lance won a TdF stage younger than any of them...
Lance won a Road World Championship younger than any of them...
Lance won the Fleche Wallone younger than any of them...
Lance won the coveted Ardennes Trophy younger than any of them...
Lance won a Road National Championship younger than them all...

Lance had incredible palmares in those three odd short years before his cancer.

He was doping hard almost from the start. Also, stage racing is completely different than one day racing.

Also, can you name the last 5 U.S national champions? Can you name the last 5 Fleche Wallone Champions? Can you name the last 5 Ardennes trophy winners? All B or worse class races. The world championship isn't even anyone's number one goal. Anyone would trade it for PR or Milan.

Also, Lance isn't the youngest Fleche Wallone, Arennes Trophy, or a TDF stage winner.
 

Polish

BANNED
Mar 11, 2009
3,853
1
0
Zweistein said:
He was doping hard almost from the start. Also, stage racing is completely different than one day racing.

Also, can you name the last 5 U.S national champions? Can you name the last 5 Fleche Wallone Champions? Can you name the last 5 Ardennes trophy winners? All B or worse class races. The world championship isn't even anyone's number one goal. Anyone would trade it for PR or Milan.

Also, Lance isn't the youngest Fleche Wallone, Arennes Trophy, or a TDF stage winner.

Others were guzzling EPO before Lance hit the euro scene.
Others were guzzling EPO when Lance was out for medical reasons.
Other numbnuts continued to guzzle EPO even after many GT riders stopped because of the EPO test. Lance is not even close to the top of the Most EPO Consumed list...

BTW, the Ardennes Trophy was a combo of best Fleche & Liege-Bastogne-Leige. It has never been won by a "B Class Rider".

Lance was the youngest Fleche winner ever in 1996, and his 2nd place in a hard man sprint at LBL a few days later earned him the trophy.

And in those 3 odd short years before his cancer, Lance did very well in stage racing as a 21 and 22 year old. Do some research...

With great riders it is hard to tell the difference between when they were doped and when they were clean. Like Lance and Alberto.

Donkeys stick out like a sore thumb. Like Kohl and Berzin and Columbo and Ricco and so many others.
 
May 18, 2009
3,757
0
0
FoxxyBrown1111 said:
Oh yeah Chris. But please change your avatar before. Thanks too.

I've changed my avatar, and you have been posting all day with no links or backup to my question as per your quid pro quo.

Could it be because you are talking out of your backside inre to Herrera's doping methods in the 80's? That appears to be so; by coincidence your "opinion" about what Herrera did not take meshes nicely with the common clinic bible verse about one of the untouchables of cycling lore. Yes, what a coincidence.

Can I change my avatar back now, or are you still researching? Thanks.