How much doping really helps?

[Zweistein]

Others were guzzling EPO before Lance hit the euro scene.
Others were guzzling EPO when Lance was out for medical reasons.
Other numbnuts continued to guzzle EPO even after many GT riders stopped because of the EPO test. Lance is not even close to the top of the Most EPO Consumed list...

BTW, the Ardennes Trophy was a combo of best Fleche & Liege-Bastogne-Leige. It has never been won by a "B Class Rider".

Lance was the youngest Fleche winner ever in 1996, and his 2nd place in a hard man sprint at LBL a few days later earned him the trophy.

And in those 3 odd short years before his cancer, Lance did very well in stage racing as a 21 and 22 year old. Do some research...

With great riders it is hard to tell the difference between when they were doped and when they were clean. Like Lance and Alberto.

Donkeys stick out like a sore thumb. Like Kohl and Berzin and Columbo and Ricco and so many others.

Yeah is the youngest Fleche winner. Show me were his stage racing results were because all I see is squat.

http://www.the-sports.org/cycling-armstrong-lance-results-identity-s2-c2-b4-o15-w1928.html

 

[Polish]

Yeah is the youngest Fleche winner. Show me were his stage racing results were because all I see is squat.

http://www.the-sports.org/cycling-armstrong-lance-results-identity-s2-c2-b4-o15-w1928.html

Lance was a 21 year old neo-pro in 1993...

Top 10 Paris-Nice 1993 (Winner Zulle)
Podium Tour du Pont 1993 (winner Raul Alcala)
Podium Tour of Sweden 1993 (winner Phil Anderson)
TdF:
TdF Stage2 - 20th
TdF Stage3 - 7th
TdF Stage8 -1st
Then Team Director pulled the young Lance out of the Race.

And Eddie B predicted Lance would win the TdF someday

 

[spalco]

JV wrote this recently

Just to play devil's advocate tough - couldn't you say it's unfair that some people have the advantage of a genetically higher vo2 max and that the people should win who train hardest, are most determined and smartest?

 

[D-Queued]

Just to play devil's advocate tough - couldn't you say it's unfair that some people have the advantage of a genetically higher vo2 max and that the people should win who train hardest, are most determined and smartest?

Nobody should win who isn't a miracle. Or, who doesn't eat contaminated beef.

Dave.

 

[sadfitty]

You have a link for that? With some hard numbers, no guesses by riders... Thanks

Don't have the time to find them now, but look at http://www.cyclismag.com. They have plenty of those calculation.


Not exactely what I was looking for, but you get the idea. First graph:

http://www.sportsscientists.com/2009/07/tour-de-france-2009-power-estimates.html

 

[ultimobici]

Lance was a 21 year old neo-pro in 1993...

Top 10 Paris-Nice 1993 (Winner Zulle)1
Podium Tour du Pont 1993 (winner Raul Alcala)2
Podium Tour of Sweden 1993 (winner Phil Anderson)3
TdF:
TdF Stage2 - 20th 4
TdF Stage3 - 7th 5
TdF Stage8 -1st 6
Then Team Director pulled the young Lance out of the Race. 7

And Eddie B predicted Lance would win the TdF someday

1 - If he was capable of climbing he might have actually fared better in the TT rather than losing over 1'08" in the 12km up the Col d'Eze
2 - Whoopy Do! Tour du Pont is hardly worthy of a mention.
3 - Even less notable
4 - Last in a sprint
5 - Last in a sprint
6 - What one would expect from a classics rider in waiting in a small break
7 - Had become normal practice with young riders who would have waited a year or two longer in the past and ridden the Dauphine to win as an apprenticeship.

To quote Borysewicz is a little unwise, IMO. This is the architect of the 84 LA Games Blood Doping Scheme. If any DS can be shown to have a direct link to the Eastern Bloc methodology it's Eddy B.

Point is Tour winners have always shown their stage racing credentials in big races early on in their careers. Lemond took 10 minutes out of the field in the Tour de L'Avenir in 82, Hinault won LBL, Ghent-Wevelgem, GP des Nations AND the Dauphine in his first season, Fignon wore the Maglia Rosa in his first season as well as winning a stage when Renault took the TTT. Armstrong displayed none of these type of performances at all. He took several years to transform magically into a GT winner. Abra-Ferrari-dabra!

 

[andy1234]

He was doping hard almost from the start. Also, stage racing is completely different than one day racing.

Also, can you name the last 5 U.S national champions? Can you name the last 5 Fleche Wallone Champions? Can you name the last 5 Ardennes trophy winners? All B or worse class races. The world championship isn't even anyone's number one goal. Anyone would trade it for PR or Milan.

Also, Lance isn't the youngest Fleche Wallone, Arennes Trophy, or a TDF stage winner.

Describing a classic as a B class race and the World Pro RR as no ones number one goal just discredits your post.

The pro RR, at the time that LA won it, was probably the second most important race on the calendar after the TDF. Nobody would have swapped it for any classic.

 

[Polish]

Armstrong displayed none of these type of performances at all. He took several years to transform magically into a GT winner. Abra-Ferrari-dabra!

Its fine that you believe in magic.
You are entranced by the Clinic's strongest spell.
"Lance was magically transformed boo"

But lets face facts.

There has not been a single rider since 1993 that as a 21 year old neo-pro had the stage race OR one day results that Lance had as a 21 year old neo-pro in 1993. And Lance had both. Lance was the last of the great neo-pros. Entering the ranks when doping was entrenched like no other time. But he still kicked ****.

Heck, there were very few riders before Lance that had those type of results as a 21 year old neo-pro. How did Hinault fare as a 21 year old?

But maybe Gino was more awesome - I should check that lol.

 

[spalco]

lol,

a) who says Armstrong was clean as a 21-year-old? He may not have been on EPO yet, but there's other stuff.
b) Yes, he had formidable palmares even as a youngster - for a classics rider. Maybe he could have been a rival to Museeuw, but that has little to do with stage races.

 

[andy1234]

lol,

a) who says Armstrong was clean as a 21-year-old? He may not have been on EPO yet, but there's other stuff.
b) Yes, he had formidable palmares even as a youngster - for a classics rider. Maybe he could have been a rival to Museeuw, but that has little to do with stage races.

a) no one in this thread.
b) One day riders have made great tour riders. It's not like comparing canoeing to boxing FFS.

Besides, another poster here kindly pointed us towards an LA win in the 91 Settimana Bergamasca at 19. TBH I didn't even know he had won that race, but if you want some stage race pedigree, look no further.

7th in the 94 tour de suisse, isnt too shabby for a second year pro either....

 

[spalco]

a) no one in this thread.

Well, if he was already juicing before getting cancer, then it's kind of pointless to use his victories in that time as evidence that he was on a comparable naturally genetic performance level with the other historic champions at the same age.

 

[andy1234]

Well, if he was already juicing before getting cancer, then it's kind of pointless to use his victories in that time as evidence that he was on a comparable naturally genetic performance level with the other historic champions at the same age.

Why, because other historic champions weren't juicing?

 

[spalco]

I don't know, do you think Andy Hampsten was doping in his first Tour? Lemond?

 

[andy1234]

I don't know, do you think Andy Hampsten was doping in his first Tour? Lemond?

.....Hinault, Merckx, Anquetil, Coppi, Roche?
What do you think?

 

[Polish]

Yes, he had formidable palmares even as a youngster - for a classics rider. Maybe he could have been a rival to Museeuw, but that has little to do with stage races.

No, he had formidable palmares as BOTH a classics AND stage race rider.

Sure, his one day palmares for a 21 year old neo pro are spectacular, but that should not minimize his stage racing accomplishments at that age.

C'mon spalco, snap out of it. Put down the kool aid.

Then name me any rider who at 21 had equal or better stage racing palmares as Lance did.

Top 10 Paris-Nice
2nd Tour du Pont behind Raul.
3rd Tour of Sweden behind Phil
3 top20 finishes in the Tour de France, including a Stage Win.

If any rider did the equivalent as a 21 year old, people would be gushing all over him as a future STAGE RACING Star.

Again, show me a rider.

And if the same rider as a 21 year old won the World Road Championship and the National Jersey and came in the top 25 at MSR and won the Trophée Laigueglia - that would overshadow but would not minimize those STAGE RACING results.

Snap out of it spalco.
Snap out of it at the count of seven.
one two three four five six seven

 

[spalco]

You are not really arguing about the same thing I'm talking about. Certainly most riders would kill to have those accomplishments even at the end of their career, but none of that really is indicative of a multi-TdF winner like some of the people in pmcg76's list earlier are.

The question here isn't "was Armstrong a talent as a young rider or a donkey?", it is "how much better did Armstrong become thanks to EPO and whatever else he took?".

 

[Mambo95]

You are not really arguing about the same thing I'm talking about. Certainly most riders would kill to have those accomplishments even at the end of their career, but none of that really is indicative of a multi-TdF winner like some of the people in pmcg76's list earlier are.

If the riders on that list had made their Tour debut alongside a peloton with HCTs of 55+%, they probably wouldn't have looked that great either.

The truth is, by the time Armstrong was 23 and ready to give the Tour a proper go, the sport was so drenched with EPO that it's impossible to say what his true natural potential as a GC rider was.

 

[spalco]

True, that's a good point.

 

[Benotti69]

all the fanboys are forgetting Gunderson himself admitted he wasn't a GT winner before cancer, but then claimed that his body changed with cancer and that his high cadence made him a GT contender, so anyone who claims diff is as full of it as Gunderson, Hemassist and half a pharmacy administered by Ferarri made all the difference, who knows what level he pushed it too? 60%, 65% take a pick.

a true GT contender, pull the other one, the one with the ball on it.

 

[andy1234]

all the fanboys are forgetting Gunderson himself admitted he wasn't a GT winner before cancer, but then claimed that his body changed with cancer and that his high cadence made him a GT contender, so anyone who claims diff is as full of it as Gunderson, Hemassist and half a pharmacy administered by Ferarri made all the difference, who knows what level he pushed it too? 60%, 65% take a pick.

a true GT contender, pull the other one, the one with the ball on it.

In my opinion, Armstrong didn't know what sort of rider he was early in his career. He started moving towards the single day events and obviously went the route of adding muscle, rather than slimming down, to meet this goal.

The truth is, LA certainly had some promising Tour results for a young pro, against fully prepped riders, so who knows what would be possible if he targeted Tours early on.

As far as claiming cadence and weight loss as being his secret weapon, what did you think he was going to say? "i'm charged up to the eyeballs and targetting the Tour now, hence the improvement"?

 

[Benotti69]

In my opinion, Armstrong didn't know what sort of rider he was early in his career. He started moving towards the single day events and obviously went the route of adding muscle, rather than slimming down, to meet this goal.

Yep, of course how old was he when he rode his 1st TdF? and then it took him how many years to cop on this is the biggest race in the world. Most know it is the biggest race in the world before they are a pro. Nah, he was never a natural 3 week GT winner.

The truth is, LA certainly had some promising Tour results for a young pro, against fully prepped riders, so who knows what would be possible if he targeted Tours early on.

The truth i reckon is Gunderson was always taking something for his performances since he was 16.

Lots have promising results and people rant and rave about the next TdF winner, but history before EPO shows a far clearer picture of those that showed TRUE GT promise and Gunderson was not one.

As far as claiming cadence and weight loss as being his secret weapon, what did you think he was going to say? "i'm charged up to the eyeballs and targetting the Tour now, hence the improvement"?

Whatever he was going to say was always what he has been saying all his pro life, lies nothing but lies. Hence we have LIEstrong.

 

[pmcg76]

No, he had formidable palmares as BOTH a classics AND stage race rider.

Sure, his one day palmares for a 21 year old neo pro are spectacular, but that should not minimize his stage racing accomplishments at that age.

C'mon spalco, snap out of it. Put down the kool aid.

Then name me any rider who at 21 had equal or better stage racing palmares as Lance did.

Top 10 Paris-Nice
2nd Tour du Pont behind Raul.
3rd Tour of Sweden behind Phil
3 top20 finishes in the Tour de France, including a Stage Win.

If any rider did the equivalent as a 21 year old, people would be gushing all over him as a future STAGE RACING Star.

Again, show me a rider.

And if the same rider as a 21 year old won the World Road Championship and the National Jersey and came in the top 25 at MSR and won the Trophée Laigueglia - that would overshadow but would not minimize those STAGE RACING results.

Snap out of it spalco.
Snap out of it at the count of seven.
one two three four five six seven

Guess this has turned into another Lance thread.

People, please stop quoting Tour of Sweden as proof of stage racing capacity, Sweden was a pro-am event in which Motorola where pretty much the only Pro team present in 93. Just for reference the Tour of Sweden ran concurrently with Tour of Switzerland, Route du Sud, Fr, Tout of Puglia, It and Bicicleta Vasca, Sp, right before the Tour. After those more important race, guess how much talent was in Sweden.

Du Pont, decent race but low standard, ran concurrently with Vuelta A Espana, 4 Days of Dunkirk, Tour of Romandy, Tour of Trentino. In 93 only top level team other than Motorola were Wordperfect who sent their flatlanders with Alcala. CLAS B team were also there and GAN C team I think. Where was Motorola main GC men, A.Hampsten, A.Mejia. Oh right, over at Romandy with all the other GC riders.

Ok, riders with better stage race credentials than Lance at 21, most of these races were bigger/more quality than Du Pont.

Stephen Roche, Winner Paris-Nice, Winner Tour of Corsica Age 21
Laurent Fignon Winner Ctriterium International Age 21
Geard Ciolek National RR Champion Age 18
Heinrich Trumheller National RR Champion Age 19
Greg LeMond Winner Tour de l'Avenir, Winner Dauphine Libere Age 21, Winner Coors Classic Age 20, 2nd World Champs Age 21yrs 2months, younger than Lance
Beat Zberg 1st Etoile de Bessges, 4th Dauphine Libere, 5th Tour of Switzerland Age 20
Rolf Sorensen 1st Tirreno-Adriatico Age 21
Bobby Julich 5th Tour du Pont Age 19Freddy Maertens 1st 4 days of Dunkirk, 2nd Tour of Flanders, 5th Paris-Roubaix Age 21
Dietrich Thurau 1st National RR, 1st Tour of Picardy, 1st Points Classification Vuelta A Espana Age 21
Antonio Martin 2nd Tour of Murcia, 3rd Tour of Catalonia Age 21
Mikel Zarrabeitia 1st Tour of Rioja, 3rd Tour of Basque Country Age 21

Thats just a few I can find easily, a few went to to become GC riders, a few went on to become big stars and a few went nowhere.

 

[Benotti69]

being a GT rider is all about recovery. Its about your bodies recovery and being able to compete at a high level every day for 3 weeks. If Gunderson was a GT rider he would've had it an early age, 21,22 or 23 etc...he never had it naturally.

 

[pmcg76]

In my opinion, Armstrong didn't know what sort of rider he was early in his career. He started moving towards the single day events and obviously went the route of adding muscle, rather than slimming down, to meet this goal.

The truth is, LA certainly had some promising Tour results for a young pro, against fully prepped riders, so who knows what would be possible if he targeted Tours early on.

As far as claiming cadence and weight loss as being his secret weapon, what did you think he was going to say? "i'm charged up to the eyeballs and targetting the Tour now, hence the improvement"?

Lance was heading for 25yrs of age when he himself admitted he didnt have what it takes to be a Tour contender. He wasnt even considering becoming a GC rider. This was Springtime 1996. Most riders know by 24/25 if they can be Tour riders, especially if they have already ridden 3 Tours.

As we dont know what Lance was taking in those years, it is plausible that he might not have had the same programme as other guys so was underpowered against the top guys. I would happily admit that he might have become a Top 10 Tour rider at some stage but a 7 time totally dominant Tour winner. Nobody and I mean nobody saw that.

 

[poupou]

As it was pointed in other threads about EPO, it was not widely for 1993-94.