How soon until Vaughters quits cycling?

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Sep 29, 2012
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techknowgn said:
Have you read Tyler's book? From the very beginning JV questioned the doping at USPS. He quit riding very early because of how he felt about the doping.
He quit USPS for more money at CA. He kept doping at CA. Voigt at CA makes Vaughters, doping, naturally high Hct, look like a B grader. I want to know how much JV makes now vs what he made as a rider. The difference could be very telling.

techknowgn said:
There was a long standing team rule they could only use team approved doctors,
Who says? JV? How convenient. Part of the anti-doping policy not written down anywhere? Not publicly known?


techknowgn said:
and White knew that De Moral had been part of the USPS doping and referred the rider there anyways; so JV fired him.
White was also moving to OGE. De Moral (how ironic a name giggity) was JV's ex-USPS team doctor too.

techknowgn said:
White made a mistake and paid for it with his job. JV could have tried to be more forgiving but then it makes the team look like it's ok to break their rules, which is the slippery slope that leads you to what sky had with the doctor they hired after having a "no doping in your past" rule. JV didnt want to take that hit, even if he knew it was only one test. It was a lot better to have the rider drive 400k to see an approved doc than blemish the teams anti doping stance.
What about internal testing at a team camp picking up that one of your riders is doping, and warning the whole team about it? Is that a slippery slope?
 
babastooey said:
A prediction thread on what date JV resigns from his position in disgrace.

I think it is a question of whether or not he goes sooner like Matt White, or later after the pressure has built up on him.

I don't think it will be immediate but it will probably be before the start of next season.

Your thoughts?
My thoughts are that why would he resign? There have been no new developments for him, or his team really. Everyone who paid attention to cycling before last week knew that he and members of his team doped on USPS, and they said they wanted to make things different now. They've been saying that for over 5 years. If he was going to resign he would have done it before he even started the team.

My other thoughts echo those of 131313.
 
Where's the pressure on Garmin? Vaughters has told us his story, the riders from Garmin with doping pasts are ones we could reasonably have guessed, they had Kimmage go on Tour with them, their riders talked to the enquiry, Vaughters can't exactly say Danielson or Vande Velde or Zabriskie lied to him about their doping past. Their highest-scoring rider on the UCI's leaked suspicion index was David Millar (a 4).

Contrast that to Sky. Pressure is building up on Sky because, unlike Garmin, they have made claims of transparency but not followed up on ANY of it. They claimed Michael Barry lied to them about doping in the past when anybody of any reasonable ability to join the dots would have been able to see. They hired Sean Yates who is still claiming there was nothing going on at USPS to this day. They hired Mick Rogers, who was a known Ferrari client, was named by Sinkewitz in Freiburg and who is now named by Leipheimer today. They hired a doctor, kept it secret for months, ostensibly to keep riders from dying, but surely there are doctors other than known doping docs who can keep riders from dying? Thomas was a 6 on the UCI suspicion index, Wiggins a 5. They vetoed Paul Kimmage travelling with them, and when pressured into showing some of Froome's numbers from the Vuelta they didn't include any data from the Angliru or Peña Cabarga stages.

The pressure isn't building up on Vaughters because he prepared the ground for it, he knew what was going on, and he has acknowledged there is a problem. The pressure is building up on Sky because their main approach has been to shout loudest without anything to back it up, and plead ignorant.
 
Aug 18, 2009
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Libertine Seguros said:
The pressure isn't building up on Vaughters because he prepared the ground for it, he knew what was going on, and he has acknowledged there is a problem.
LS on the money as usual.

He is a public relations 'genius' IMO, and as such he's one of the ones capable of riding this out if anyone can. Only thing is that Joe Bloggs/corporate sponsors may not be able to get past the fact that all the ex-USPS on his team doped, but then they'll need americans to cheer for now more than ever, so they could be receptive to apologies. I actually suspect that Garmin's image among hardcore fans i.e. the cleaner team will be adopted by the mainstream. I remain cycical myself though simply because of the level the team operate at in the WT and Wiggins transfomation which began on Vaughters' squad.
 
May 26, 2009
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So now those who acknowledged the problem and testified should also be punished? ;)

Let go of the anger... your idol has fallen and has been exposed as a cheat beyond all others.
 
Apr 29, 2009
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Zweistein said:
Dumb thread. Matt White stepped down because he couldn't take the heat or he felt he was part of the problem. If Vaughters is truly about clean cycling, more power to him. Not everyone who doped is in love with doping.
Good call, A good read in Millars Book Racing through the dark sums up this horrible practice and the demons it can raise.
 
taiwan said:
LS on the money as usual.

He is a public relations 'genius' IMO, and as such he's one of the ones capable of riding this out if anyone can. Only thing is that Joe Bloggs/corporate sponsors may not be able to get past the fact that all the ex-USPS on his team doped, but then they'll need americans to cheer for now more than ever, so they could be receptive to apologies. I actually suspect that Garmin's image among hardcore fans i.e. the cleaner team will be adopted by the mainstream. I remain cycical myself though simply because of the level the team operate at in the WT and Wiggins transfomation which began on Vaughters' squad.
Let's not forget that when Talansky came out with some seemingly pro-Lance spiel, Vaughters was quick to put a stop to that.
 
Libertine Seguros said:
Where's the pressure on Garmin? Vaughters has told us his story, the riders from Garmin with doping pasts are ones we could reasonably have guessed, they had Kimmage go on Tour with them, their riders talked to the enquiry, Vaughters can't exactly say Danielson or Vande Velde or Zabriskie lied to him about their doping past. Their highest-scoring rider on the UCI's leaked suspicion index was David Millar (a 4).

Contrast that to Sky. Pressure is building up on Sky because, unlike Garmin, they have made claims of transparency but not followed up on ANY of it. They claimed Michael Barry lied to them about doping in the past when anybody of any reasonable ability to join the dots would have been able to see. They hired Sean Yates who is still claiming there was nothing going on at USPS to this day. They hired Mick Rogers, who was a known Ferrari client, was named by Sinkewitz in Freiburg and who is now named by Leipheimer today. They hired a doctor, kept it secret for months, ostensibly to keep riders from dying, but surely there are doctors other than known doping docs who can keep riders from dying? Thomas was a 6 on the UCI suspicion index, Wiggins a 5. They vetoed Paul Kimmage travelling with them, and when pressured into showing some of Froome's numbers from the Vuelta they didn't include any data from the Angliru or Peña Cabarga stages.

The pressure isn't building up on Vaughters because he prepared the ground for it, he knew what was going on, and he has acknowledged there is a problem. The pressure is building up on Sky because their main approach has been to shout loudest without anything to back it up, and plead ignorant.
For the starters, this is a well written post, nice job indeed
 
Jul 10, 2012
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rata de sentina said:
I just don't get people going all holier than thou over JV. How could it be a surprise to anyone in the clinic that he doped. Thought it was common knowledge myself. The op is just ignorant or some mate of MW muddying the waters.
It took me two minutes to figure out who you meant my MW. Seriously. Is it really that hard to type "Matt White?" It is only nine letters. Sometimes I don't get the tendency of people on the Internet to abbreviate everything. "Okay" became OK even though the original word was only two more letters. There are abbreviations longer than 4 letters. Then it became "K" which was like, the worst thing ever except for the USPS (a proper abbreviation) doping scandal.

No, I am not some friend of Matt White. In fact, I became less of a fan of his when I watched the Road to Paris DVD and he slagged all over Paris-Roubaix, saying it wasn't a real cycling race. Maybe that is the perspective of someone who rode it and crashed 1,000 times, but I consider it to be THE cycling race.

Anyhow, White was told to quit his positions because his superiors found it embarassing to employ someone caught up in the biggest scandal in cycling.

If Vaughters was at ground zero of this scandal and he didn't like it, he had another way out. He could have gone to someone in the press (especially the French press who was having a field day with Festina) and said that there is an American team also with a culture of doping. Lance's TDF aspirations would have been killed in the crib and Vaughters may have still caught on with a team over in France as he did later.

Instead, he mostly kept his mouth shut just like all the other cheaters, until the culture of places like this board made it acceptable to open his mouth, a little. He wasn't even as principled as someone like Frankie Andreu, who still for a time went along with the culture of corruption.

My point is that White went down in disgrace because there is a feeling that people like that shouldn't be in cycling. How long before the others connected to USPS go? I picked JV (his name has 17 letters) as the topic of discussion because there is a cult of JV on this board just as there is a cult of Lance off this board (not nearly as big, but there is one).
 
Jul 10, 2012
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sartain said:
If we rid the sport of all dopers, then 80% of the pro-P would be gone, thus leaving all the non-dopers, and without dope, 80% of them would have to drop out of any GT, thus leaving the remaining 20% truly suspect, thereby keeping Pareto Principle (also known as the 80–20 rule) solidly intact . . . so I am ok with this. Feel free to rip apart my logic.
This is an interesting point. Which is more important, exciting cycling races or clean cycling races? Should we let them all cheat, as long as the playing field is level, and then watch an exciting race like the 2003 Tour when pretty much all the contenders were on the sauce?

Perhaps there will be a future thread on this subject.
 
Sep 29, 2012
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babastooey said:
This is an interesting point. Which is more important, exciting cycling races or clean cycling races? Should we let them all cheat, as long as the playing field is level, and then watch an exciting race like the 2003 Tour when pretty much all the contenders were on the sauce?

Perhaps there will be a future thread on this subject.
GAH!

Exciting and clean are not mutually exclusive. Doping does not make a level playing field.
 
May 26, 2009
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babastooey said:
Should we let them all cheat, as long as the playing field is level, and then watch an exciting race like the 2003 Tour when pretty much all the contenders were on the sauce?
No, your hero did not fight with equal weapons. Really, it's not possible to spin it and nobody here will agree... it's over and out for your hero.

Let go of the pain, we understand that you feel like an idiot for all those years. Now don't do this in public. It's rather obvious and embarrassing.
 
Sep 29, 2012
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Franklin said:
No, your hero did not fight with equal weapons. Really, it's not possible to spin it and nobody here will agree... it's over and out for your hero.

Let go of the pain, we understand that you feel like an idiot for all those years. Now don't do this in public. It's rather obvious and embarrassing.
Apologies. Did not realise I had been replying to a True Believer in babastooey.
 
Oct 2, 2012
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There's an undercurrent by some of the posters here that once a doper, always a doper. I disagree.

I also think that JV position with Slipstream regarding doping: (If you doped, you need to tell me and never do it again.) is more tenable than Sky's (Tell me you never doped.)

As long as there is no known doping going on in Garmin, I don't see why JV should step down.
 
Jul 28, 2009
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babastooey said:
It took me two minutes to figure out who you meant my MW. Seriously. ........blah blah ook! .
Not everyone posts with a keyboard OK nor are they likely to pander to your pathological hatred of abbreviations. I am sure that MJM and sniper will be delighted to know that there is a JV cult going on here. The premise of your thread remains as ever, silly.
 
May 26, 2009
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rata de sentina said:
Not everyone posts with a keyboard OK nor are they likely to pander to your pathological hatred of abbreviations. I am sure that MJM and sniper will be delighted to know that there is a JV cult going on here. The premise of your thread remains as ever, silly.
I was a bit surprised at that to considering how much sniping on JV and Garmin is going on here ;)

It's a really stealthy cult it seems as I haven't noticed any of them :D
 
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