How to beat Team SKY at TdF?

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I think everyone's already doing precisely the right thing: just give up and relinquish the tdf. If you're a GC rider for another team - race for podium/top 10. If you're a genuine fan, just take a break in July. We all knew what was coming didn't we? All the riders knew.

Sky have it nailed, full stop.

Oleg Tinkoff approach - just wait out the era.

Just let 'em have what they exist for.
 
Sep 2, 2015
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I think that Sky is a great team for defend the Yellow jersey, that train with the skyborgs are made to respond to attacks and set a high tempo that means that some one must have a very hard and consistent acceleration to disrupt the train. For me it is attacking they from the beginning, put pressure on every stage, have a team with 1 - 2 leaders, 2 more climbers plus roleurs and TTears and attack and every single chance from the start of the Tour, this year they were pretty amazing, but also they were just to comfortable, from the leader position is easier to control the race so just don't let Froome to take the Yellow so early. And the end if he is the strongest he will win anyway like this year but at least with more fight in the middle of it.
 
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Poursuivant said:
Why is everyone all of a sudden propositioning rule changes? Because Sky were strong this year? In 2013 day the day after Ax 3 Froome was literally on his own with OVER 100 km to go, yet no one laid a glove on him. Asking for rule changes is pathetic, Sky have a big budget but it isn't Man City to Burnley level, Sky all year are pretty much all about the Tour and don't hide it, that's why they are so strong here, they have done nothin At the Giro; and not much at the Vuelta simply because they are secondary targets.
Just watched the 2013 stage in question for some nostalgia. Froome's group included Andy Schleck, Cadel Evans, Euskaltel-Euskadi's Mikel Nieve, some descending skill from a young man in a hurry, Omega Pharma-Quick Step's Michał Kwiatkowski - I wonder if descending will ever come in handy for him in the future - and an attack from Vacansoleil-DCM Pro Cycling Team's Wout Poels.
 
If there were enough strong riders in other teams to attack Sky on a daily basis the Skytrain would be like snowflakes in hell. This year there weren't the people who could do it.
 
Jun 3, 2013
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This tour just wasn't a very decisive edition.
How much more decisive can it get? Froome never once looked in jeopardy.

Whilst I appreciate Froome is probably the strongest GC man of his generation, it's hard to say he's unbeatable as a man when the team makes up such a huge percentage of his dominance.
 
Aug 4, 2010
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sienna said:
If there were enough strong riders in other teams to attack Sky on a daily basis the Skytrain would be like snowflakes in hell. This year there weren't the people who could do it.
I agree with your point but the problem is that there NEVER will be enough riders.Only one who can put Skytrain into trouble(and its not even sure) is Contador and Nibali in top shape, plus Quintana with a long range attack (which is nonsense).Or do you think there is someone else who can drop skytrain?
Those other 'strong' riders you suggests dont aim for a TdF victory, so in most cases its a nonsense too to attack a Skytrain, isnt it?

Then I can see only 2 people who will attack no matter what and lets call it 'Contador School' :D and thats Aru amd Bardet who are both very good in acceleration and they do not hide admiration of Contador riding style.And God bless them because the 3rd was a bit interesting because of them.
 
Journey Man said:
This tour just wasn't a very decisive edition.
How much more decisive can it get? Froome never once looked in jeopardy.

Whilst I appreciate Froome is probably the strongest GC man of his generation, it's hard to say he's unbeatable as a man when the team makes up such a huge percentage of his dominance.
60%, 70%, 80%?
 
Jul 25, 2016
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Easy: wait until Vroom disappears. (Oleg Tinkoff)

Though he probably forgot that then a mythical "french Tour winner" will come. (you know, the one Brailsford dreamed about coaching to victory... just few years ago)
 
For those who say powerful trains don't mean so much in the mountains, I disagree. They can control the tempo in the leadup and lower slopes, forcing other riders to adapt. Up high they can serve as a security blanket. What we saw with LA we are again seeing with Froome: hire top climbers, protect them in the flat stages and unleash hell in the mountains.

To beat the current iteration of Sky you'll need a team at least as well funded. Wout Poels isn't riding for Sky because he enjoys wearing a black jersey in the summer...
 
1) have a single rider who has the ability to push watts higher then sky train and do it multiple times. Aka Contador in Dauphine. 2) have hopefully one other rider who can go with said rider, there you have destroyed the train. Beating Froome on the other hand.
 
Sep 17, 2015
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May I ask - if it's all just about Money - Lat time I heard, BMC still had a bigger budget that Sky. Is that no longer the case, and if so what is the margin?

While I do think think they have essentially copied the approach of a particular Italian Doctor and simply replaced one factor with another - in this case with money - you can spend all the money you like but if you spend it unwisely still get a poor result, and that's down to the management not the riders.

So I would suggest hiring Dave Brailsford would be the solution.
 
Aug 11, 2012
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You don't see Sky for the whole season. They have the money and an incredible rider in Poels. On top of that some other good climbers who for some reason exceed expectations.

Dave Brailsford is just as good as any football coach with good players.
 
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PatrickLeeds said:
May I ask - if it's all just about Money - Lat time I heard, BMC still had a bigger budget that Sky. Is that no longer the case, and if so what is the margin?
Apparently it's Sky followed by a small margin by Katusha (external), then BMC. But in comparison with BMC (I trust those numbers more than the Katusha numbers), besides the significant financial difference, BMC just aren't as focused on the MJ. They have a mix of classics riders (GVA, Gilbert, Oss), TT-ers (Dennis, Phinney, Kung), attackers (De Marchi, Hermans, Atapuma), burgeoning sprinters (Rick Zabel) as well as their GT domestiques and GC men. It's a difference in focus, not necessarily performance.

What's more, according to those numbers, the second two strongest teams in the mountains this Tour (Astana and Movistar) average about half of Sky's outlay. They're also the other two teams with no significant classics pretensions.
 
Feb 6, 2016
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An interesting thing about watching this year's sprints is that they were basically never won by the train. In the beginning Kittel's train dominated, which helped him a lot on the stage he won, but not at all the rest of the time. With just 1/2 other riders, Cav was able to navigate his way up the bunch incredibly well, and Sagan won all his stages with nothing approaching a train at all. The moment this thought occurred to me was on the Champs; Lotto-Soudal went long and didn't really do a proper leadout, but from the moment Greipel got onto Kristoff's wheel it was pretty clear he would take it. It's far too early to declare the death of the train (neither Etixx nor Lotto did very good trains, after all) but it does seem like the HTC days are over. The same thing might happen with the mountain train. I think someone will come up with a tactic to work around it; I have no idea what, but then I'm not a DS. Don't give up hope just yet. While there's obviously no direct parallels between a sprint train and a mountain train, we can see in sprints a few experienced riders overcoming the power of a team and its leader through tactical knowledge and wiliness. The same thing could well happen - in different ways - on climbing stages.
 
ILovecycling said:
Big Doopie said:
Smaller teams.

Aim for five.

Settle for 7.

Only way.

Fewer riders in the TDF would also mean fewer first week crashes that always eliminates a contender or two.

It's only since they MASSIVELY increased the size of the starting peloton that we consistently lose top riders in the first week.
I thought there always have been 9riders teams :eek:
There was a time when the tour started with only 140 riders or less. When they ballooned to 190+ we suddenly got hit with contender crashes in the messy first week.
 
Aug 11, 2012
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carton said:
PatrickLeeds said:
May I ask - if it's all just about Money - Lat time I heard, BMC still had a bigger budget that Sky. Is that no longer the case, and if so what is the margin?
Apparently it's Sky followed by a small margin by Katusha (external), then BMC. But in comparison with BMC (I trust those numbers more than the Katusha numbers), besides the significant financial difference, BMC just aren't as focused on the MJ. They have a mix of classics riders (GVA, Gilbert, Oss), TT-ers (Dennis, Phinney, Kung), attackers (De Marchi, Hermans, Atapuma), burgeoning sprinters (Rick Zabel) as well as their GT domestiques and GC men. It's a difference in focus, not necessarily performance.

What's more, according to those numbers, the second two strongest teams in the mountains this Tour (Astana and Movistar) average about half of Sky's outlay. They're also the other two teams with no significant classics pretensions.
I would believe those numbers. Katusha probably waste more money on mechanics, material, cooks whatever....than salary.

I have a feeling you consider Tour of Flanders or Paris Roubaix as classiques only ? Both Moviestar and Astana have riders to win M-S-R, San Sebastian, Amstel, Lombardy etc etc. Besides with Lars Boom and Imanol Erviti they have riders who can do some damage on cobblestones as well.
 
I get those of u who want to get rid of tech.

However that is a dead end. You cannot tell people not to use their smart phones. Its here to say. We have to adapt.

Drop team size. Race will be harder to control. And great riders will fear missing the tour team with teams like sky and choose other teams.
 
Gigs_98 said:
This thread reminds me that we have still never seen the big 4 fighting against each other in top shape :(
.
Bad news: that group has been reduced to the Big One.

How to beat Sky?
1. Make a clone of Jan Ullrich
2. Put him on a diet, far away from Knackwurst and Schnapps.
3. Teach him how to handle a bike and avoid crashes.
4. Buy some good helpers.
5. Let him wheelsuck in the mountains and win the time trials.
6. Write a nice victory speech about how it all comes down to really wanting something and believing in yourself.
7. Cash the money and buy some more good helpers.
 
Aug 4, 2010
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Re: Re:

carton said:
PatrickLeeds said:
May I ask - if it's all just about Money - Lat time I heard, BMC still had a bigger budget that Sky. Is that no longer the case, and if so what is the margin?
Apparently it's Sky followed by a small margin by Katusha (external), then BMC. But in comparison with BMC (I trust those numbers more than the Katusha numbers), besides the significant financial difference, BMC just aren't as focused on the MJ. They have a mix of classics riders (GVA, Gilbert, Oss), TT-ers (Dennis, Phinney, Kung), attackers (De Marchi, Hermans, Atapuma), burgeoning sprinters (Rick Zabel) as well as their GT domestiques and GC men. It's a difference in focus, not necessarily performance.

What's more, according to those numbers, the second two strongest teams in the mountains this Tour (Astana and Movistar) average about half of Sky's outlay. They're also the other two teams with no significant classics pretensions.
TBH I dont trust any of those numbers.One of the basic business rule should be - never trust a budget number or earnings number.

I think the its about that focus to TdF as many said here. Movistar and Astana should not send that strong teams to Giro.
 
Feb 6, 2016
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Re: Re:

ILovecycling said:
carton said:
PatrickLeeds said:
May I ask - if it's all just about Money - Lat time I heard, BMC still had a bigger budget that Sky. Is that no longer the case, and if so what is the margin?
Apparently it's Sky followed by a small margin by Katusha (external), then BMC. But in comparison with BMC (I trust those numbers more than the Katusha numbers), besides the significant financial difference, BMC just aren't as focused on the MJ. They have a mix of classics riders (GVA, Gilbert, Oss), TT-ers (Dennis, Phinney, Kung), attackers (De Marchi, Hermans, Atapuma), burgeoning sprinters (Rick Zabel) as well as their GT domestiques and GC men. It's a difference in focus, not necessarily performance.

What's more, according to those numbers, the second two strongest teams in the mountains this Tour (Astana and Movistar) average about half of Sky's outlay. They're also the other two teams with no significant classics pretensions.
TBH I dont trust any of those numbers.One of the basic business rule should be - never trust a budget number or earnings number.

I think the its about that focus to TdF as many said here. Movistar and Astana should not send that strong teams to Giro.
Sky legally have to release fully audited and correct accounts. You can find them at companieshouse.co.uk.
 
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[quote=""Jeff"":21orj4ej]I would believe those numbers. Katusha probably waste more money on mechanics, material, cooks whatever....than salary.

I have a feeling you consider Tour of Flanders or Paris Roubaix as classiques only ? Both Moviestar and Astana have riders to win M-S-R, San Sebastian, Amstel, Lombardy etc etc. Besides with Lars Boom and Imanol Erviti they have riders who can do some damage on cobblestones as well.[/quote]Seems hard to spend that much on chefs. Maybe they have Jamie Oliver cooking for them? Anyway, poor word choice, I meant to say any dedicated classics riders. No, Boom and certainly Erviti don't count. Also, weren't you the one suggesting that MSR and Amstel were piss-poor excuses for classics these days (I disagree on that, BTW)?
 

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