How to beat Team SKY at TdF?

[diego721]

I think that Sky is a great team for defend the Yellow jersey, that train with the skyborgs are made to respond to attacks and set a high tempo that means that some one must have a very hard and consistent acceleration to disrupt the train. For me it is attacking they from the beginning, put pressure on every stage, have a team with 1 - 2 leaders, 2 more climbers plus roleurs and TTears and attack and every single chance from the start of the Tour, this year they were pretty amazing, but also they were just to comfortable, from the leader position is easier to control the race so just don't let Froome to take the Yellow so early. And the end if he is the strongest he will win anyway like this year but at least with more fight in the middle of it.

 

[TMP402]

Re:

Why is everyone all of a sudden propositioning rule changes? Because Sky were strong this year? In 2013 day the day after Ax 3 Froome was literally on his own with OVER 100 km to go, yet no one laid a glove on him. Asking for rule changes is pathetic, Sky have a big budget but it isn't Man City to Burnley level, Sky all year are pretty much all about the Tour and don't hide it, that's why they are so strong here, they have done nothin At the Giro; and not much at the Vuelta simply because they are secondary targets.

Just watched the 2013 stage in question for some nostalgia. Froome's group included Andy Schleck, Cadel Evans, Euskaltel-Euskadi's Mikel Nieve, some descending skill from a young man in a hurry, Omega Pharma-Quick Step's Michał Kwiatkowski - I wonder if descending will ever come in handy for him in the future - and an attack from Vacansoleil-DCM Pro Cycling Team's Wout Poels.

 

[pastronef]

Re:

Can't wait for Sky to exit the sponsorship, but I fear we will just have another dominant team.

for the moment you'll have to wait until 2020

 

[sienna]

If there were enough strong riders in other teams to attack Sky on a daily basis the Skytrain would be like snowflakes in hell. This year there weren't the people who could do it.

 

[Asero831]

Offer Froome a bigger contract to move out of Sky

 

[Robert5091]

Re:

Offer Froome a bigger contract to move out of Sky

Can we not have a whip around to send Froome & family on a free 2 week holiday in Bexhill or Whitby in July next year?

 

[Journey Man]

This tour just wasn't a very decisive edition.

How much more decisive can it get? Froome never once looked in jeopardy.

Whilst I appreciate Froome is probably the strongest GC man of his generation, it's hard to say he's unbeatable as a man when the team makes up such a huge percentage of his dominance.

 

[ILovecycling]

If there were enough strong riders in other teams to attack Sky on a daily basis the Skytrain would be like snowflakes in hell. This year there weren't the people who could do it.

I agree with your point but the problem is that there NEVER will be enough riders.Only one who can put Skytrain into trouble(and its not even sure) is Contador and Nibali in top shape, plus Quintana with a long range attack (which is nonsense).Or do you think there is someone else who can drop skytrain?
Those other 'strong' riders you suggests dont aim for a TdF victory, so in most cases its a nonsense too to attack a Skytrain, isnt it?

Then I can see only 2 people who will attack no matter what and lets call it 'Contador School' and thats Aru amd Bardet who are both very good in acceleration and they do not hide admiration of Contador riding style.And God bless them because the 3rd was a bit interesting because of them.

 

[sienna]

This tour just wasn't a very decisive edition.

How much more decisive can it get? Froome never once looked in jeopardy.

Whilst I appreciate Froome is probably the strongest GC man of his generation, it's hard to say he's unbeatable as a man when the team makes up such a huge percentage of his dominance.

60%, 70%, 80%?

 

[tukabel]

Easy: wait until Vroom disappears. (Oleg Tinkoff)

Though he probably forgot that then a mythical "french Tour winner" will come. (you know, the one Brailsford dreamed about coaching to victory... just few years ago)

 

[Bolder]

For those who say powerful trains don't mean so much in the mountains, I disagree. They can control the tempo in the leadup and lower slopes, forcing other riders to adapt. Up high they can serve as a security blanket. What we saw with LA we are again seeing with Froome: hire top climbers, protect them in the flat stages and unleash hell in the mountains.

To beat the current iteration of Sky you'll need a team at least as well funded. Wout Poels isn't riding for Sky because he enjoys wearing a black jersey in the summer...

 

[Scarponi]

1) have a single rider who has the ability to push watts higher then sky train and do it multiple times. Aka Contador in Dauphine. 2) have hopefully one other rider who can go with said rider, there you have destroyed the train. Beating Froome on the other hand.

 

[PatrickLeeds]

May I ask - if it's all just about Money - Lat time I heard, BMC still had a bigger budget that Sky. Is that no longer the case, and if so what is the margin?

While I do think think they have essentially copied the approach of a particular Italian Doctor and simply replaced one factor with another - in this case with money - you can spend all the money you like but if you spend it unwisely still get a poor result, and that's down to the management not the riders.

So I would suggest hiring Dave Brailsford would be the solution.

 

["Jeff"]

You don't see Sky for the whole season. They have the money and an incredible rider in Poels. On top of that some other good climbers who for some reason exceed expectations.

Dave Brailsford is just as good as any football coach with good players.

 

[carton]

Re:

May I ask - if it's all just about Money - Lat time I heard, BMC still had a bigger budget that Sky. Is that no longer the case, and if so what is the margin?

Apparently it's Sky followed by a small margin by Katusha (external), then BMC. But in comparison with BMC (I trust those numbers more than the Katusha numbers), besides the significant financial difference, BMC just aren't as focused on the MJ. They have a mix of classics riders (GVA, Gilbert, Oss), TT-ers (Dennis, Phinney, Kung), attackers (De Marchi, Hermans, Atapuma), burgeoning sprinters (Rick Zabel) as well as their GT domestiques and GC men. It's a difference in focus, not necessarily performance.

What's more, according to those numbers, the second two strongest teams in the mountains this Tour (Astana and Movistar) average about half of Sky's outlay. They're also the other two teams with no significant classics pretensions.

 

[Cannibal72]

An interesting thing about watching this year's sprints is that they were basically never won by the train. In the beginning Kittel's train dominated, which helped him a lot on the stage he won, but not at all the rest of the time. With just 1/2 other riders, Cav was able to navigate his way up the bunch incredibly well, and Sagan won all his stages with nothing approaching a train at all. The moment this thought occurred to me was on the Champs; Lotto-Soudal went long and didn't really do a proper leadout, but from the moment Greipel got onto Kristoff's wheel it was pretty clear he would take it. It's far too early to declare the death of the train (neither Etixx nor Lotto did very good trains, after all) but it does seem like the HTC days are over. The same thing might happen with the mountain train. I think someone will come up with a tactic to work around it; I have no idea what, but then I'm not a DS. Don't give up hope just yet. While there's obviously no direct parallels between a sprint train and a mountain train, we can see in sprints a few experienced riders overcoming the power of a team and its leader through tactical knowledge and wiliness. The same thing could well happen - in different ways - on climbing stages.

 

[Big Doopie]

Smaller teams.

Aim for five.

Settle for 7.

Only way.

Fewer riders in the TDF would also mean fewer first week crashes that always eliminates a contender or two.

It's only since they MASSIVELY increased the size of the starting peloton that we consistently lose top riders in the first week.

I thought there always have been 9riders teams

There was a time when the tour started with only 140 riders or less. When they ballooned to 190+ we suddenly got hit with contender crashes in the messy first week.

 

["Jeff"]

Re: Re:

May I ask - if it's all just about Money - Lat time I heard, BMC still had a bigger budget that Sky. Is that no longer the case, and if so what is the margin?

Apparently it's Sky followed by a small margin by Katusha (external), then BMC. But in comparison with BMC (I trust those numbers more than the Katusha numbers), besides the significant financial difference, BMC just aren't as focused on the MJ. They have a mix of classics riders (GVA, Gilbert, Oss), TT-ers (Dennis, Phinney, Kung), attackers (De Marchi, Hermans, Atapuma), burgeoning sprinters (Rick Zabel) as well as their GT domestiques and GC men. It's a difference in focus, not necessarily performance.

What's more, according to those numbers, the second two strongest teams in the mountains this Tour (Astana and Movistar) average about half of Sky's outlay. They're also the other two teams with no significant classics pretensions.

I would believe those numbers. Katusha probably waste more money on mechanics, material, cooks whatever....than salary.

I have a feeling you consider Tour of Flanders or Paris Roubaix as classiques only ? Both Moviestar and Astana have riders to win M-S-R, San Sebastian, Amstel, Lombardy etc etc. Besides with Lars Boom and Imanol Erviti they have riders who can do some damage on cobblestones as well.

 

[lenric37]

Quintana last year could maybe win but not Contador anymore.

 

[Big Doopie]

I get those of u who want to get rid of tech.

However that is a dead end. You cannot tell people not to use their smart phones. Its here to say. We have to adapt.

Drop team size. Race will be harder to control. And great riders will fear missing the tour team with teams like sky and choose other teams.

 

[Pantani_lives]

This thread reminds me that we have still never seen the big 4 fighting against each other in top shape
.

Bad news: that group has been reduced to the Big One.

How to beat Sky?
1. Make a clone of Jan Ullrich
2. Put him on a diet, far away from Knackwurst and Schnapps.
3. Teach him how to handle a bike and avoid crashes.
4. Buy some good helpers.
5. Let him wheelsuck in the mountains and win the time trials.
6. Write a nice victory speech about how it all comes down to really wanting something and believing in yourself.
7. Cash the money and buy some more good helpers.

 

[ILovecycling]

Re: Re:

May I ask - if it's all just about Money - Lat time I heard, BMC still had a bigger budget that Sky. Is that no longer the case, and if so what is the margin?

Apparently it's Sky followed by a small margin by Katusha (external), then BMC. But in comparison with BMC (I trust those numbers more than the Katusha numbers), besides the significant financial difference, BMC just aren't as focused on the MJ. They have a mix of classics riders (GVA, Gilbert, Oss), TT-ers (Dennis, Phinney, Kung), attackers (De Marchi, Hermans, Atapuma), burgeoning sprinters (Rick Zabel) as well as their GT domestiques and GC men. It's a difference in focus, not necessarily performance.

What's more, according to those numbers, the second two strongest teams in the mountains this Tour (Astana and Movistar) average about half of Sky's outlay. They're also the other two teams with no significant classics pretensions.

TBH I dont trust any of those numbers.One of the basic business rule should be - never trust a budget number or earnings number.

I think the its about that focus to TdF as many said here. Movistar and Astana should not send that strong teams to Giro.

 

[Cannibal72]

Re: Re:

May I ask - if it's all just about Money - Lat time I heard, BMC still had a bigger budget that Sky. Is that no longer the case, and if so what is the margin?

Apparently it's Sky followed by a small margin by Katusha (external), then BMC. But in comparison with BMC (I trust those numbers more than the Katusha numbers), besides the significant financial difference, BMC just aren't as focused on the MJ. They have a mix of classics riders (GVA, Gilbert, Oss), TT-ers (Dennis, Phinney, Kung), attackers (De Marchi, Hermans, Atapuma), burgeoning sprinters (Rick Zabel) as well as their GT domestiques and GC men. It's a difference in focus, not necessarily performance.

What's more, according to those numbers, the second two strongest teams in the mountains this Tour (Astana and Movistar) average about half of Sky's outlay. They're also the other two teams with no significant classics pretensions.

TBH I dont trust any of those numbers.One of the basic business rule should be - never trust a budget number or earnings number.

I think the its about that focus to TdF as many said here. Movistar and Astana should not send that strong teams to Giro.

Sky legally have to release fully audited and correct accounts. You can find them at companieshouse.co.uk.

 

[carton]

Re: Re:

[quote=""Jeff"":21orj4ej]I would believe those numbers. Katusha probably waste more money on mechanics, material, cooks whatever....than salary.

I have a feeling you consider Tour of Flanders or Paris Roubaix as classiques only ? Both Moviestar and Astana have riders to win M-S-R, San Sebastian, Amstel, Lombardy etc etc. Besides with Lars Boom and Imanol Erviti they have riders who can do some damage on cobblestones as well.[/quote]Seems hard to spend that much on chefs. Maybe they have Jamie Oliver cooking for them? Anyway, poor word choice, I meant to say any dedicated classics riders. No, Boom and certainly Erviti don't count. Also, weren't you the one suggesting that MSR and Amstel were piss-poor excuses for classics these days (I disagree on that, BTW)?

 

[gregrowlerson]

Some interesting opinions here. The suggestion for a team to load up on strong riders for the flatlands and attack Sky on windy/cobbled/lumpy stages (because you cannot compete with them in the high mountains) is not without merit, though would also depend on the parcours offered up.

As for that parcours, I don't believe that it should be chosen in an attempt to defeat Froome. Besides, didn't they just do this? No MTF straight away in the high mountains, less MTF's in general with more emphasis on descending, not a lot of ITT kms, and barely any of it flat.

Next years course should have plenty of ITT kms in it, with at least 50kms of that pancake flat. Not to help or hurt Froome, but just because the Tour is meant to be about deciding who the best all around rider is, and that means an emphasis on the race of truth.

A true Queen stage (220 + kms with 5 difficult climbs) would be nice too, even if that hurts Dumoulin's chances.

And bring the teams down to 7 riders tops. Limiting Sky's strength will help. The good point was made that Froome dominated the time trials. No help from his team there. Not obviously. He'd be tireder for the TT's though if he didn't have as strong a team. It does matter that his domestiques are as strong as other team leaders, because sure, Chris could claw back Fabio and Alejandro on his own on stage 15 for example, but that would mean expanding extra energy, physically and mentally, which would count later. And so maybe he let's them go, and they get thirty seconds up the road, and things get a little interesting. Anyway, if you have 6 riders, then you can't really be super strong in both the flat road and the mountains, which Sky as a 9 man unit obviously are. 6 riders might mean that Sky have 6 strong climbers, but then a team like BMC for example might pick 4 strong roulers, and make things interesting on some other stages.

Congratulations to Froome regardless. Was clearly the strongest rider at this year Tour.