how to stop cheating

[BigBoat]

It's amazing what has been published and how early some of these things were published. Which raises two questions: Are athletes ahead of scientists or vice versa? And is it any wonder that I am cynical about the UCI and their antidoping efforts when this information has been around for years and they have done nothing about it?

The UCI hasnt done jack bro... Except keep the poorer riders from blood doping and allowing the rich to use the best dope doctors and blood dope with their crypto-preserved packed red cells (600cc refills)... And heavy 02 carriers like acto... and it was even legal for some time! what a joke lol...

I agree with Snake! But... If you wanted a clean TDF it would have to be run with like 25 riders and you'd have to have people following those 25 riders year round with total body hemoglobins and power file tracking...An extremely small and monitored pack...You could not have the free market sport (free transfer market). The money system in Pro Cycling would have to be scrapped and you'd have to give everybody a living wage or not even that... Whomever you didnt test with total body hemoglobin or power files would be assumed to have doped. Guilt before innocence in pro sports...

As long as BIG MONEY is to be made they will want to do some "pay offs" and of course dope. Because the uci wants a piece of the pie too. Sh$t Verbruggen was in the Canaries.

 

[Rupert]

Teams

I think the teams' (management, DS, ?) need to be held responsible and penalized, not just the riders. That way they can't have a paper anti-doping program but look the other way as long as riders get the right result. Peer pressure from the other riders would then help, if tolerating a doper in their midst means they may lose their job (team banned?). Now if the rider gets caught the team washes their hands of them and says good riddance. The teams (the ones which don't already have a real, strong anti-doping program) need to have a vested interest in the riders being clean and the riders need to know they (the team) means it when they say no doping tolerated. I think (hope) some teams are there already. I certainly do not feel qualified to figure out the best technical means to detect / prevent doping - that's going to remain a moving target as technology moves along.

 

[Anonymous]

....wiring each and every tour rider, DS and soigneur (plus any fringe members of the team entourage if required!) to a lie detector and asking them pertinent questions about their previous/current exposure to doping, knowledge/suspicions of guilty parties in the peloton etc. If the needle flickers wildly then be prepared to start handing out lifetime bans with alacrity.

Yes, I know it's probably a blatant infringement of human rights, but what the heck, it's just hypothetical!

(apologies in advance if this offends anyone, but it's been a long day and this is a moment of pure light relief)

it's ok man.. we're here for you.

 

[Anonymous]

The UCI hasnt done jack bro... Except keep the poorer riders from blood doping and allowing the rich to use the best dope doctors and blood dope .

so there are poor clean riders in the tour?

 

[BikeCentric]

Legalize and regulate it. It makes the racing better anyway.

This is not going to work. Most fans do not like the idea of doping and this would hurt the flow of sponsorship Dollars big time. Why do you think everybody freaks out about high profile doping cases and sponsors leave the sport when they go down? Do you recall that both Phonak and Barclays iShares immediately quit the sport and folded their whole team when Landis got busted? Are you at all aware of how corporate marketing and PR works? Corporations sponsor cycling for advertising because they want to associate themselves with "clean, honest, and fair competition" and therefore create an image that they will do business in a likewise fair and honest way.

 

[Escarabajo]

so there are poor clean riders in the tour?

The South Americans have always been poor riders. Actually very poor. If they don't have a Team Doping program, they will never stand a chance. Just like the one that Kelme had. That was one of the reasons why the Colombians disappeared from cycling in the nineties until the end of the last decade when the Kelme systematic doping was implemented.

 

[BikeCentric]

Most of you guys that are so anti-doping: do you think there will EVER be a CLEAN peleton? That's as naive and lacking in critical thinking as anything else I've seen on these forums.

This is of course a stupid question but I'll entertain it anyway. The answer is obviously there will always be someone who attempts to cheat in cycling or any sport so of course no sport will ever be 100% clean. The whole point is to create an environment where cheaters are in the distinct minority and the incentive to cheat is outweighed by the punishment for getting caught. Right now the incentive of the rewards that can be gained by cheating and the low risk of getting caught outweigh the decision to race clean. This means that the regulatory system of the sport needs to be reformed, which is what many of us have said on here 100 times - the UCI is not doing its job.

Now, simply because the ideal of 100% purity can never be obtained does not mean that we do not attempt to shoot for that goal. That is like saying we should scrap the whole criminal justice system because there will always be criminals.

 

[BikeCentric]

The South Americans have always been poor riders. Actually very poor. If they don't have a Team Doping program, they will never stand a chance. Just like the one that Kelme had. That was one of the reasons why the Colombians disappeared from cycling in the nineties until the end of the last decade when the Kelme systematic doping was implemented.

Yep and then as soon as their team doctor got busted with the Manzano episode they all started getting dropped. I think that was Dr. Fuentes was it not?

 

[Escarabajo]

Yep and then as soon as their team doctor got busted with the Manzano episode they all started getting dropped. I think that was Dr. Fuentes was it not?

By the time Fuentes was busted most of them had already come back to South America except for Botero who was riding for Phonak at the moment. He was never allowed to ride back in Europe.

 

[shawnrohrbach]

Complete the following sentence.


I would stop cheating and catch the blood doping by........


btw... seeing how this forum is big on blanket condemnation and doomsaying i don't imagine this thread with get much traction.

This is actually funny. Nothing will stop cheating. I see cheating in little league baseball. It's not removing money, it's not some blood monitoring system nor is it public shame that will "fix" cheating. Cheating is inherent to human nature. It's the same BS going on between the guy who started this thread and the people he threatens in his postings; "I am better than you and I will do anything to prove it". If you can get rid of that inherent hubris, you begin to touch on the very root cause of cheating, and guess what, you never will. Go ahead and punish EVERYONE by shutting down pro cycling for even ONE doping violation, and they will still find a way to cheat. By the way, I have not seen a clear, irrefutable definition of cheating in this thread, and until you define it and everyone agrees with your definition, don't expect "cheating" to go away any time soon. It is a reality that needs to be either accepted or punished at some level to keep it contained in a manner the viewing public will accept. I find it humorous that people were scandalized when the Illinois governor was run out of office for "cheating". Ha. That's politics. Even more hilarious was the former President Bill Clinton who cheated on his wife, lied to the public, survived an impeachment trial and now is one of the most revered Presidents of modern time. So much for personal integrity. Maybe some people (maybe many people) understand pro cycling is entertainment and we expect the same from pro cyclists the same as we expect from movie stars and rock stars.

 

[Black Dog]

We are all naive to think that cycling or any professional sport transcends business and entertainment. All involved are working primarily on self interest and as such will make decisions along these lines. To end the cheating (read doping) it must be in the interest of all parties to not cheat. If there is more money to be made through honesty then honesty you will have. Send all solutions to the UCI along with a cheque made payable to Pat....

 

[Escarabajo]

It is a reality that needs to be either accepted or punished at some level to keep it contained in a manner the viewing public will accept

You got that right.

 

[BikeCentric]

You got that right.

LOL nice; I agree.

 

[krebs303]

It is a reality that needs to be either accepted or punished at some level to keep it contained in a manner the viewing public will accept.

There lies the rub just read an interesting article on the viewing public.

http://www.goerie.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20090607/BASEBALL04/306079876

 

[Anonymous]

There lies the rub just read an interesting article on the viewing public.

http://www.goerie.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20090607/BASEBALL04/306079876

interesting article... thanks...

for a person to mature, they must learn the supreem importance of perspective and context in how they view and shape their world.

perspective and context, perspective and context, perspective and context

i can't say it enough.

 

[Anonymous]

To end the cheating (read doping) it must be in the interest of all parties to not cheat.

I actually thing the sport is getting close to getting that.

sponsors are upset. one doped rider can kill a team if the sponsor decides they no longer want dopers wearing their name.

almost happened to barloworld.

what teams would lose their sponsor if one of their riders gets busted.

if it happens again at barloworld they have guarenteed they will disband the team

 

[BigBoat]

so there are poor clean riders in the tour?

Not totally clean, but some might have low crits.

 

[VeloFidelis]

Why would we ever assume that cheating in cycling can be stopped, when it can't be in any other aspects of human experience?

 

[BigBoat]

Diff topic diff thread...

 

[BikeCentric]

Why would we ever assume that cheating in cycling can be stopped, when it can't be in any other aspects of human experience?

So what's your point? It should be made legal and also all laws should be abolished so we can all go back to living in a Hobbesian "State of Nature" pseudo-anarchical Mad Max society?

 

[BikeCentric]

You have to look at power outputs at the top which are occationally leaked. Hunter Allen F-d up when he released Gustov Larsson's TT power in California (486 watts for 31 minutes). He had about 6.3 watts per kilo for that effort. Talented past freaks like Lemond and Fingon who WON the TDF only could do about 5.8 maybe 5.9 for that length of time.

Any of you who train and race with a powermeter know just how insane those power numbers that BigBoat speaks of are.

For comparison, Marco Pinotti released some power numbers in the most recent issue of CycleSport (I cannot give you a link as they only provide this in print to subscribers of which I am one obviously). He was talking about his power output when climbing the Mur de Huy which many of you know is the very steep climb in Fleche-Wallone that has a 25% max gradient, averages 10%, and is 1.3 KM long. This is what Pinotti said:
"My power output averages out at nearly 440 watts for the whole climb, which takes just over four minutes when we are racing up it. I use a 39x25 lowest gear."

This is obviously Pinotti's VO2 max power with a portion of the power being supplied by his anaerobic system. This is a four minute MAXIMAL effort. If you think it is any less than maximal you are kidding yourself. Even if it was a Cat 3 race going up the Mur de Huy, any bike race is going to be going all out up that climb. Why? We're talking 1.3 KM up a steep as hell hill. If you don't go all out then I will and I will drop you. They are all going all out. 440 watts for 4 minutes. And yet Larsson averages 486 for 31 minutes? That's insane.

 

[VeloFidelis]

So what's your point? It should be made legal and also all laws should be abolished so we can all go back to living in a Hobbesian "State of Nature" pseudo-anarchical Mad Max society?

Gee... That seems like a stretch. I guess I'd settle for you telling me of any aspect of human behavior where cheating is non existent.

Because that part where you try to tell me what I am actually thinking... that isn't working at all.

 

[BikeCentric]

Gee... That seems like a stretch. I guess I'd settle for you telling me of any aspect of human behavior where cheating is non existent.

Because that part where you try to tell me what I am actually thinking... that isn't working at all.

Well I don't know about you but when I do my job I don't cheat my clients, so there's one example for you. I prefer to a.) not go to jail b.) not steal money from my clients portfolios c.) be able to look at myself with respect in the mirror d.) not get sanctioned by the SEC and be barred from my profession for life.

So I really don't know why you keep spewing your ethically challenged BS, but for some of us it really isn't all that hard to live life like a non-scumbag. Clearly it's tough for you but I could care less.

 

[VeloFidelis]

Well I don't know about you but when I do my job I don't cheat my clients, so there's one example for you. I prefer to a.) not go to jail b.) not steal money from my clients portfolios c.) be able to look at myself with respect in the mirror d.) not get sanctioned by the SEC and be barred from my profession for life.

So I really don't know why you keep spewing your ethically challenged BS, but for some of us it really isn't all that hard to live life like a non-scumbag. Clearly it's tough for you but I could care less.

Damn you're touchy! Are you sure you don't cheat your clients? "Me thinks thou doth protest too much."

In any case, your amazing resolve hardly qualifies as an entire aspect of human behavior. Example: Some people in your profession do cheat... No???

 

[BikeCentric]

Damn you're touchy! Are you sure you don't cheat your clients? "Me thinks thou doth protest protest too much."

In any case, your amazing resolve hardly qualifies as an entire aspect of human behavior. Example: Some people in your profession do cheat... No???

Of course they do - see Madoff for the recent visible example, Enron for a very interesting historical case study. And they are vigorously prosecuted and sent to jail. I still don't get your point - because cheating and lawbreaking happens we should just let it happen? Yes there will always be cheaters and they should always be caught and held up as the contra example of how we should act. I don't see what is objectionable about that. Ever hear of the "golden rule"?!