I cannot watch the Tour anymore

[Jeremiah]

Well... bye.

What? You're still here? Why? Just need something to complain about? Is that why you watch cycling?

You're right!

Not that it will do any good but I'm out. I'm resigning in protest.

 

[The Cobra]

No juiced up Bertie or Schleck?

I just question the timing of it Libertine. A Sky domination was always on the cards, Vuelta last year, Algarve, Paris - Nice, Romandy, Dauphine, it's not exactly a surprise that Sky are so much better is it? Wiggins TTing has been the best this year, Cancellara has been injured, his prologue victory was on a course suited to him. The other contenders have been substandard for a variety of reasons, Sky are a better team. Marginal gains and all that. A bit better in every dept.

I believe that Sky are doing things in the correct way and doing all they can to win legally and fairly, within the rules. Howabout giving them some credit instead of acting like drama queens?

+1

Sky has been hated and loved with almost Lance like levels of passion from the beginning. Cyclist wins race with exceptional performance is not really anything new. Doesn't winning the biggest race in the world and exceptional performance go hand in hand, why does it HAVE to mean doping? Nobody cried this much last year when Evans won. How exactly did he manage to finish only 7 seconds down on Tony Martin and 1:30 ahead of Fabian in the final TT with quite possibly the worst TT position I've ever seen?

The Sky mocking has been incessant. Wiggo has no chance etc. well turns out he does and because a lot of people don't like him they decide to ruin every race thread with accusation of doping. In terms of doping in cycling the only thing that has changed this year is Sky is winning, I can understand why some of you can't bring yourselves to watch that .

Postal train? Yeah sure. It's no secret Wiggo likes a very fast pace in the mountains so no can attack and he can ride it like a TT. Is it boring yeah, can you blame Sky for doing it, no. Is this guaranteed proof of doping? No. Sky have trained specifically for this. They have put it in practice every stage race this year. Sky spent big bucks on riders than can pull it off. Very good riders + well executed plan + an entire year meticulously preparing for one single goal = this years Tour.

I've watched cycling long enough that I now question every single winning performance. But I tend to ignore it otherwise enjoyment of cycling is gone for me. If you cant get over that then maybe you shouldn't be watching. Having said that I would be astonished, completely stunned if Wiggins or Froome went positive.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

If you question doping in cycling how does this equate with not loving the sport? This is reminiscent of the Armstrong 'loving cancer' rubbish.

I am going now to reproduce a section of Al Franken's book "Lies and the Lying Liars who Tell Them", a satirical look at the right-wing talking heads in America in the wake of 9-11 and the election of George W Bush. However, I am going to paraphrase it by replacing certain key words with ones applicable to the Clinic.

Conservatives as Al Franken sees them, for example, will become the "everything is awesome" idealists. Liberals as Al Franken sees them, thereby, will become the "this looks like doping" cynics. "America" will be replaced by "Cycling", and similar ("country" becomes "sport" and so on).

This is because I feel that while obviously designed from a politically partisan point of view, this accusation that the cynics do not love the sport is summed up well in his retort. I did a similar thing on the "doping in football" thread, where many eminently reasonable posters were being accused of screaming "DOPE!!!" at Fabrice Muamba as he lay in hospital.

Let's see how this one is read.

If you listen to a lot of [idealists], they'll tell you that the difference between them and us [cynics] is that [idealists] love [cycling] and [cynics] hate [cycling]. That we "blame [cycling] first." That we're suspicious of [fanboyism] and always think our [sport] is in the wrong. . .

Theyd on't get it. We love [cycling] just as much as they do. But in a different way. You see, they love [cycling] the way a four-year-old loves her mommy. [Cynics] love [cycling] like grown-ups. To a four-year-old, everything Mommy does is wonderful, and anyone who criticises Mommy is bad. Grown-up love means actually understanding what you love, taking the good with the bad, and helping your loved one grow.

 

[The Cobra]

If you listen to a lot of [idealists], they'll tell you that the difference between them and us [cynics] is that [idealists] love [cycling] and [cynics] hate [cycling]. That we "blame [cycling] first." That we're suspicious of [fanboyism] and always think our [sport] is in the wrong. . .

Theyd on't get it. We love [cycling] just as much as they do. But in a different way. You see, they love [cycling] the way a four-year-old loves her mommy. [Cynics] love [cycling] like grown-ups. To a four-year-old, everything Mommy does is wonderful, and anyone who criticises Mommy is bad. Grown-up love means actually understanding what you love, taking the good with the bad, and helping your loved one grow.

I don't doubt that you love cycling. Anybody who has such a detailed knowledge of the sport must have a real passion for it. However I don't see the need to constantly drag it down. It's seems people like to prove their superiority that they 'know for a fact' that everyone is on the juice and anyone who doesn't conform to that view is a hopelessly naive fanboy.

Some of you are seriously lacking some objectivity. Do we know for a fact that every good performance means dope, no. Does it guarantee a rider is clean, no. Enjoy the sport for the spectacle it is. I guess is depends if you're a glass half full or half empty person. I prefer to view life from the half full perspective and give the benefit of the doubt until evidence to prove otherwise arises.

 

[Izzy eviel]

If Wiggins can't drop Evans on the climbs, does this mean Evans dopes as well?

 

[norwegian]

I don't doubt that you love cycling. Anybody who has such a detailed knowledge of the sport must have a real passion for it. However I don't see the need to constantly drag it down. It's seems people like to prove their superiority that they 'know for a fact' that everyone is on the juice and anyone who doesn't conform to that view is a hopelessly naive fanboy.

Some of you are seriously lacking some objectivity. Do we know for a fact that every good performance means dope, no. Does it guarantee a rider is clean, no. Enjoy the sport for the spectacle it is. I guess is depends if you're a glass half full or half empty person. I prefer to view life from the half full perspective and give the benefit of the doubt until evidence to prove otherwise arises.

I second this.

 

[roundabout]

If Wiggins can't drop Evans on the climbs, does this mean Evans dopes as well?

No. It means that Wiggins is clean while Evans has to dope to make up for his inferior training.

 

[Izzy eviel]

Bid difference with Evans is that he has always been fairly consistent in his performances in GTs over the years and did'nt come from the grupetto to 4th in the Tour. Even this season Wiggins has even showed another leap in his performances from that 09 Tour.

Yes but that ignores the fact that the parcours in P-N, romandie, Dauphine haven't been difficult. More then one person has said they're 'win the tt, win the GC races' and he's rarely been up against inform opposition. It ignores the fact that he focused more on the road after Beijing '08, it ignores the fact that bar Evans his rivals are mostly injured/been unlucky or had there preparations hampered by injury.

In short, if you're Brad in a race with few big climbs and lots of TT miles he will do very well. Fewer TT miles and tougher climbs he won't do as well. Last years Vuelta anyone? Stages 15 & 17 spring to mind. He failed on the hard climbs.

I agree his performances are cause to raise eyebrows but to automatically presume he's doping is wrong.

 

[Deagol]

... I don't see the need to constantly drag it down. ....

This argument seems more like a "blame the messenger" mentaility than objectivity. Pointing out sometimes glaring flaws (in this case, suspicious behavior) with the sport is not dragging it down. Those commiting false acts are dragging it down while profitting from it at the same time.

 

[c&cfan]

Bid difference with Evans is that he has always been fairly consistent in his performances in GTs over the years and did'nt come from the grupetto to 4th in the Tour. Even this season Wiggins has even showed another leap in his performances from that 09 Tour.

so he has doped since the beginning of his career, right?

 

[mb2612]

so he has doped since the beginning of his career, right?

Arguably, yep, but there is nothing new about Evans, hence why people are not currently debating him here. Go back a year and I'm sure there was a thread on him, with an equally vehement defence by the Aussies on the forum.

Also, again, Wiggins had never won a long TT before this year.

His time trialling has improved almost beyond recognition, and he has been super strong all year round. the fact the routes were time trial centric does not explain how Wiggins has become so much stronger this year. It's a miracle.

 

[Avoriaz]

The race was more open, more people could win,

...and yet, as soon as one of these "more people" looks like he might, a whole raft of us cry foul.

It's a strange world

 

[BroDeal]

Yes but that ignores the fact that the parcours in P-N, romandie, Dauphine haven't been difficult.

That speaks to another point that has dampened my enthusiasm for the Tour. While the TdF has always had formulaic routes, I feel that since 2009 the courses have become much worse. The director is obsessed with manufacturing a close race by reducing the opportunities to gain time.

The Tour is a crappy race. The Giro was a great counterpoint to the Tour, but now that Zomegnan is gone, it looks like it might go the same way as the Tour.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

...and yet, as soon as one of these "more people" looks like he might, a whole raft of us cry foul.

It's a strange world

But it's not that he might win. It's how. If Wiggins got the yellow by virtue of doing the best prologue and being among a pretty even bunch on PdBF, then doing a good long TT, even if he won it, it wouldn't raise as many eyebrows as the Team Sky train of pain on PdBF did. After all, Evans got into yellow in 2010 by virtue of doing the best prologue of any of the GC contenders, and then simply coming in together with the group of favourites on your namesake.

If a bunch of the contenders had been riding together, there'd been a couple of attacks here and there and the same group of people came to the line together at PdBF, people may still have been suspicious, but you wouldn't have had the complete explosion in the Clinic that we've had. If Evans or Van den Broeck or somebody had been the one on the front, people could have bought it - a GC contender setting the pace to shell GC contenders. But it was seeing four Sky guys together, including the long-dodgy Mick Rogers, who after dropping then rode back to the group, tailing everyone out the back... while genuine GC favourites die like dogs and lose time behind him... THAT's why people's suspicion has been piqued.

 

[pedaling squares]

Some of you are seriously lacking some objectivity. Do we know for a fact that every good performance means dope, no. Does it guarantee a rider is clean, no.

I think that is an oversimplified assessment of the criticism. People are not saying every good performance means dope. I haven't seen a Thiabult Pinot thread to this point. But some people, who have loved a sport for decades despite having that love thrown back in their faces numerous times in the form of lying, cheating, and lying about cheating, question certain performances that remind them of their rejected love. Riders who make shocking and/or sudden developments and attribute it to advanced training and weight loss, riders who are tough on some accused dopers and easy on others, remind us of dark times and you cannot blame us for asking questions, even making accusations.

 

[The Cobra]

I think that is an oversimplified assessment of the criticism. People are not saying every good performance means dope. I haven't seen a Thiabult Pinot thread to this point. But some people, who have loved a sport for decades despite having that love thrown back in their faces numerous times in the form of lying, cheating, and lying about cheating, question certain performances that remind them of their rejected love. Riders who make shocking and/or sudden developments and attribute it to advanced training and weight loss, riders who are tough on some accused dopers and easy on others, remind us of dark times and you cannot blame us for asking questions, even making accusations.

The point is people pick and choose which good performances are doped and which are done by talented clean riders. This week has been a massive over reaction and based much more on the fact bashing Sky/Wiggins is cool opposed to a reasonable assessment of whats actually happened. Sure he's done an exceptional ride so far, but so did Pinot, so did Sagan. Whats the difference really? Some suspicion is natural and perfectly understandable but to declare with 100% conviction as many have done that Sky is running a US postal style team doping scam is totally unfounded.

 

[mb2612]

I think that is an oversimplified assessment of the criticism. People are not saying every good performance means dope. I haven't seen a Thiabult Pinot thread to this point. But some people, who have loved a sport for decades despite having that love thrown back in their faces numerous times in the form of lying, cheating, and lying about cheating, question certain performances that remind them of their rejected love. Riders who make shocking and/or sudden developments and attribute it to advanced training and weight loss, riders who are tough on some accused dopers and easy on others, remind us of dark times and you cannot blame us for asking questions, even making accusations.

Pretty much, the fact sky are scarily reminiscent of US Postal means people who saw that see this and jump to the same conclusion. Unfortunately, the only way you fond out for real is wait ten years and see if things start coming out. Until then you have rampant speculation based on circumstantial evidence. I hope Wiggins is clean, but suspect he is not and, unless we get more evidence either way, this debate will roll on for as long as Sky remain dominant.

 

[Zam_Olyas]

The point is people pick and choose which good performances are doped and which are done by talented clean riders. This week has been a massive over reaction and based much more on the fact bashing Sky/Wiggins is cool opposed to a reasonable assessment of whats actually happened. Sure he's done an exceptional ride so far, but so did Pinot, so did Sagan. Whats the difference really? Some suspicion is natural and perfectly understandable but to declare with 100% conviction as many have done that Sky is running a US postal style team doping scam is totally unfounded.

It's not only been this week, the core guys have always been on form all season long even my beloved rogers lol.

 

[Hugh Januss]

The point is people pick and choose which good performances are doped and which are done by talented clean riders. This week has been a massive over reaction and based much more on the fact bashing Sky/Wiggins is cool opposed to a reasonable assessment of whats actually happened. Sure he's done an exceptional ride so far, but so did Pinot, so did Sagan. Whats the difference really? Some suspicion is natural and perfectly understandable but to declare with 100% conviction as many have done that Sky is running a US postal style team doping scam is totally unfounded.

Wigans himself raised the comparison with Postal (assume he meant it in a different way though).
Sagan got his own clinic thread while he was running the table in uphill bunch finishes, but managed to deflect attention by coming 105th in the ITT. Likewise Pinot did a heck of a ride on stage 8, he paid for it the next day as he lost 5:12 to Wigans. Add in the fact that both the others are 22 years old and don't have a long established baseline that they are now vastly exceeding and it seems easy to see why Wigans gets more attention.
This is not to say that the others are not doping at least to some level, they are racing in the big leagues you know.

 

[c&cfan]

Arguably, yep, but there is nothing new about Evans, hence why people are not currently debating him here. Go back a year and I'm sure there was a thread on him, with an equally vehement defence by the Aussies on the forum.

Also, again, Wiggins had never won a long TT before this year.

His time trialling has improved almost beyond recognition, and he has been super strong all year round. the fact the routes were time trial centric does not explain how Wiggins has become so much stronger this year. It's a miracle.

the second i have the privilege to see

 

[PedalPusher]

I don't doubt that you love cycling. Anybody who has such a detailed knowledge of the sport must have a real passion for it. However I don't see the need to constantly drag it down. It's seems people like to prove their superiority that they 'know for a fact' that everyone is on the juice and anyone who doesn't conform to that view is a hopelessly naive fanboy.

Some of you are seriously lacking some objectivity. Do we know for a fact that every good performance means dope, no. Does it guarantee a rider is clean, no. Enjoy the sport for the spectacle it is. I guess is depends if you're a glass half full or half empty person. I prefer to view life from the half full perspective and give the benefit of the doubt until evidence to prove otherwise arises.

http://redkiteprayer.com/2012/07/wiggins-winning-ways/



b

ut there is no doubt he was on better form than other riders with Tour aspirations. It’s hard to say he wasn’t on something approaching peak form at Romandie: he was definitely revved higher than his peers. But the Dauphiné? Few guys ever get the opportunity to show the kind of form at the Dauphiné that Wiggins displayed. How could that not be peak?

Here’s what leaves me scratching my head: The Dauphiné TT was 53km. Wiggins put 1:43 into Evans. In yesterday’s stage 9 TT, Wiggins put 1:43 into Evans, but the length of the event was only 41.5km. It shows that he is on even better form now than he was at the Dauphiné.

I’ve been thinking that Wiggins has been riding a wave of peak form dating to Romandie, the last week of April. That puts him in his 10th week of peak form. I’ve been telling people Wiggins will flame out, pointing out how no one in history has ever won Paris-Nice, the Tour of Romandie, the Critérium du Dauphiné and the Tour de France all in the same season.

That bears repeating: No one, not even the insatiable Cannibal himself, ever won Paris-Nice, the Tour of Romandie, the Critérium du Dauphiné and the Tour de France all in the same season.

 

[BYOP88]

the Cannibal couldn't spell win with his name Wiggins can

 

[BroDeal]

the Cannibal couldn't spell win with his name Wiggins can

The Cannibal was a lazy ****.

 

[yourwelcome]

I think that is an oversimplified assessment of the criticism. People are not saying every good performance means dope.

+ 1

Unfortunately Team Sky are turning in not just good but incredible performances. As in 'not credible'.

Seen it before, fair enough to hope it might be legit, but repeated experience shows that hope is foolish.

Maybe this time it's different... but realistically the odds are so stacked against it.

I'm just p'd off right now because for a few recent years it looked like the pro tour might be moving into a cleaner direction. I guess that history should have taught me that was a foolish hope too.

 

[Ripper]

I am going now to reproduce a section of Al Franken's book "Lies and the Lying Liars who Tell Them", a satirical look at the right-wing talking heads in America in the wake of 9-11 and the election of George W Bush. However, I am going to paraphrase it by replacing certain key words with ones applicable to the Clinic.

Conservatives as Al Franken sees them, for example, will become the "everything is awesome" idealists. Liberals as Al Franken sees them, thereby, will become the "this looks like doping" cynics. "America" will be replaced by "Cycling", and similar ("country" becomes "sport" and so on).

This is because I feel that while obviously designed from a politically partisan point of view, this accusation that the cynics do not love the sport is summed up well in his retort. I did a similar thing on the "doping in football" thread, where many eminently reasonable posters were being accused of screaming "DOPE!!!" at Fabrice Muamba as he lay in hospital.

Let's see how this one is read.

That was well done.