I don't think Taylor Phinney needs a Clinic thread

[Netserk]

I didn't know you were such a naive sucker Chewie (j/k)

 

[zigmeister]

I'd say it's a bit like an antidoping test. A negative is meaningless, a positive is conclusive.

In this case, looking exhausted is meaningless, looking like it was nothing is probably not.

But you can't reverse the terms of the equation.

Agree with this point. Furthermore to add to that thought, look at the recent bio-passport cases the UCI have opened up against some riders. Asking them to explain "abnormal values". No positive. Just some weird numbers, which they can't prove mean anything. But, hey, guilty until proven innocent.

Instead of focusing on the BP, they need to work more on their drug testing methods/standards to catch guys.

 

[melkemugg]

Someone told me that he's been training with some guy which by association alone guaranteed him to be a doped up junkie.

 

[Netserk]

David Millar?

 

[melkemugg]

I'd say it's a bit like an antidoping test. A negative is meaningless, a positive is conclusive.

In this case, looking exhausted is meaningless, looking like it was nothing is probably not.

But you can't reverse the terms of the equation.

Looking rested after finishing = guaranteed doping
Looking exhausted after finishing = likely to be doping

 

[melkemugg]

David Millar?

Taylor Phinney trains regularly in Denver with Allan Lim.

(At least 10 characters)

 

[Ninety5rpm]

Getting that gap on the aero decent was awesome, but I just don't see how any clean rider - no matter how good his DNA - can maintain a gap like that from a peloton of eager and doped riders.

 

[Granville57]

Getting that gap on the aero decent was awesome, but I just don't see how any clean rider - no matter how good his DNA - can maintain a gap like that from a peloton of eager and doped riders.

Well then, how would a doped rider maintain that gap from a peloton of eager and doped riders?

 

[Ninety5rpm]

Well then, how would a doped rider maintain that gap from a peloton of eager and doped riders?

Same way many of these guys did it when they pulled it off.

By being doped and slightly better/faster/stronger/more motivated that day.

Pulling that off clean would require being better/faster/stronger by an incredible margin.

 

[Granville57]

Pulling that off clean would require being better/faster/stronger by an incredible margin.

Or...you'd have to be a better descender, on a familiar road, with superior TT skills to the riders who were chasing you.

these guys

The acceptance of drug-taking in the Tour de France was so complete by 1930 that the rule book, distributed by Henri Desgrange, reminded riders that drugs would not be provided by the organisers

Seems fair enough.

 

[Ninety5rpm]

Or...you'd have to be a better descender, on a familiar road, with superior TT skills to the riders who were chasing you.



Seems fair enough.

I think road familiarity and descent skills explains his getting the gap on the descent.

But once the road flattened out I don't see how superior TT skills and road familiarity would be enough for a clean rider to maintain the gap as long as he did from a group of doped chasers.

Of course, I wouldn't be surprised if there was not even a single clean rider in the entire peloton.

 

[Granville57]

Of course, I wouldn't be surprised if there was not even a single clean rider in the entire peloton.

OK, for the sake of argument/debate, I'll accept your premise.

But this brings us back to both of our original points.

If everyone of those chasers were doped, and Taylor was not, how could he have beaten them (in addition to the above mentioned advantages)?

Superior genetics. Which he very likely does posses.

Would it be enough? No idea. It's all speculation, as is the notion that the entire field of the ToC was doped.

Do you think a clean rider has ever won against doped riders?

Ever?

 

[Granville57]

Pulling that off clean would require being better/faster/stronger by an incredible margin.

We should not forget that that chase group also got jumped by a pro-conti rider when they were in full stride.

It wasn't exactly the best-of-the-best in top form that day. It was, after all, only the Tour of California.

 

[blackcat]

Looking rested after finishing = guaranteed doping
Looking exhausted after finishing = likely to be doping

= looking like Bernhard Kohl

 

[oldcrank]

remember when chris hoy went to altitude in south America, may have been Colombia in about 2002 to attempt to break the 1km record at ~58 secs.

he just missed out.

I think Phinney has one time at 1 minute and change, and another at 1.01 and change. and his pb in the 4k ip is about 4.15 or 4.16.

But if he had to race Bobridge in January in Del Monte Adelaide in a heated velodrome, it would not be Bobridge with the IP wr, it would be Phinney, he would have got Jackie Bobby by about 3 secs imo.

I reckon Phinney could have the 1km wr, and the 4km IP wr, if they really had any status as blue riband events, and the pro income. a little like usain bolt, but on a bike.

Well, if Cancellara and Tony Martin took up the IP, I think they may have him for the IP, if they could get the souplesse down in 18months, it would take a full 18months full time to get the ability for the fixie on the boards.

I don't think so, my friend.

 

[Race Radio]

But once the road flattened out .

After his attack there was very little flat road. Las Positas is a false flat, down hill. The turn up Cliff is a short climb, not very steep. Then you have a few blocks of flat followed by a long gradual downhill to the finish. I can see how guy like Taylor can stay away

 

[Scott SoCal]

I think road familiarity and descent skills explains his getting the gap on the descent.

But once the road flattened out I don't see how superior TT skills and road familiarity would be enough for a clean rider to maintain the gap as long as he did from a group of doped chasers.

Of course, I wouldn't be surprised if there was not even a single clean rider in the entire peloton.

It's possible they all dope.

However, can you name any of the guys from Orica or Cannondale driving the chase? Me neither.

It was really hot in the Santa Ynez Valley. The climb up the San Marcos pass is not easy. The peloton was pretty small getting over the pass. There were no radios. I've read where the group didn't know if anyone was off the front for sometime and didn't know it was Phinney until the 12kms to go mark.

Add it all up and it's not necessarily an extraterrestrial performance.

 

[blackcat]

I don't think so, my friend.

1.01.6 sry

http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/track/2009/mar09/wtc09/?id=results/wtc095

he did the same time at the World Cup 4 weeks before

how old was he? 20? I appreciate there would be a negation nigh inverted correlation between a 4k and 1k time. Otherwise, Sir Chris Hoy would have been pulling the lead off leg for TPs

(plead guilty to allowing hyperbole to get the better of me, I did recall it was 1.01 and change, but it made my contention less strong!)

yeah, memory is ok, he pulled a 1.01.6 also, in the Cophenhagen worldcup a month before
http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/track/2008/worldcup0809/copenhagen09/?id=results/copenhagen092

I appreciate 1 second in the 1km tt (lets say, track it neutralised for speed/conditions) 1 second is a massive(material) time when it separates the top 5 or6 in the Olympics. but he was 19 or 20...my point still stands on its merit

 

[blackcat]

After his attack there was very little flat road. Las Positas is a false flat, down hill. The turn up Cliff is a short climb, not very steep. Then you have a few blocks of flat followed by a long gradual downhill to the finish. I can see how guy like Taylor can stay away

circa 80kgs, he has about 10kgs on the riders who are trying to pull him back

 

[proffate]

was there wind? A tailwind would penalize the chasers more than Phinney.

Were the chasers tired from controlling the race that day?

Did Cannondale bring their A team? I'd guess their A team is at the Giro right now.

The best dopers, the GC riders, were not chasing. It's only the sprint trains that chased. It's not super surprising that a clean Phinney could poach this kind of victory in a 2nd tier race with the stars perfectly aligned.