I just have to ask ? Marianne Vos

[Benotti69]

Amazing how pros years ago managed to train in Northern Europe prior to oxygen vector doping drugs meant training using these drugs was better than using races for training.

 

[theyoungest]

Amazing how pros years ago managed to train in Northern Europe prior to oxygen vector doping drugs meant training using these drugs was better than using races for training.

Of course travel getting a lot cheaper has nothing to do with it...

That's the clinic for you. Everything must always have to do with doping.

 

[Galic Ho]

Athletes that I know have gone there for several reasons:
1. Watch the World Cup of Soccer
2. Participate in World Masters Athletics Championships
3. Compete in UCI World Cup of Track Cycling
4. Watch Rugby
5. Participate in a friendly Cricket series
6. Holiday
7. Spread the ashes of a dear friend that passed abroad
8. Participate in the Comrades Marathon

Which was the one reason you are referring to?

Athletes go to South Africa to watch the Rugby? Watch the soccer? No, they go to compete. I think you mean people...athletes go to South Africa to compete not pay respects. Since when has there been a friendly cricket series? Cricket is a serious sport, there are no friendly pleasantries. You are out to destroy your rival. Friendly is a poor word choice. All your examples are poor in the context of an athlete visiting South Africa.

All the sports you mentioned have major corruption, drug and match fixing and that is just in South Africa and the tournaments held there. Athletics from South Africa is dirty. They fired the head of the national athletics board after the debacle two years back...you should remember it, was a big deal. Cycling, well that would arguably be one of the cleaner sports, but it's the worlds best female cyclist in question, so it's suspect. The only sport I'd buy would be hockey. Plenty of hockey tournaments in South Africa. You funnily enough picked all the dodgy sports. Good job

 

[Benotti69]

Of course travel getting a lot cheaper has nothing to do with it...

That's the clinic for you. Everything must always have to do with doping.

Nothing to do with cheaper travel. The rest of CX pros (men mostly) are racing in Europe for the super prestige series and world cup races.

It has to do with doping while training, but that's cycling for you, it seems it always has to do with doping.

 

[theyoungest]

Nothing to do with cheaper travel. The rest of CX pros (men mostly) are racing in Europe for the super prestige series and world cup races.

It has to do with doping while training, but that's cycling for you, it seems it always has to do with doping.

Marianne Vos has done a full road season, unlike those CX pros you mention. Plus a full CX season before. Perhaps she was entitled to a little rest, after winning everything under the sun this year. And the year before.

The training for the cross season only really starts now. BTW even without it, she got 2nd in Gieten the other day. Surely she flew into a panic and decided she needed a few weeks of doping in South Africa

 

[WinterRider]

another plus could be:
8. training: timezone doesn't change (compared to Europe, that is), so no jetlag..

however, i'm not sure if i understand the climate-related argument (7): do you really want to train in a warm and dry climate if only a small percentage of the races per year take place in such a climate?
this question is of course not just wrt southafrica, also wrt tenerife and spain, where the general argument is always "we go there for the good weather".

As someone who rides a bike year round, even though only for basic fitness and transportation (through a Canadian winter no less) I can tell you with absolute assurance that I would always prefer to be riding in better weather if the option is available.

No matter what else might go on in a place like Tenerife, going there for the weather is a pretty damn good reason if you can afford it.

 

[Hugh Januss]

Of course travel getting a lot cheaper has nothing to do with it...

That's the clinic for you. Everything must always have to do with doping.

Are you really complaining that people are talking about doping in the clinic which was set up exclusively to keep doping talk out of the racing threads?
Really?

 

[theyoungest]

Are you really complaining that people are talking about doping in the clinic which was set up exclusively to keep doping talk out of the racing threads?
Really?

When doping is presented as the only reason for people to do certain things, yes I think that's ridiculous.

Just like when posting in the regular thread I don't assume that everything does not have to do with doping.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Amazing how pros years ago managed to train in Northern Europe prior to oxygen vector doping drugs meant training using these drugs was better than using races for training.

Really?
If only Pat McQuaid & Sean Kelly had listened to your advise.

 

[Hugh Januss]

When doping is presented as the only reason for people to do certain things, yes I think that's ridiculous.

Just like when posting in the regular thread I don't assume that everything does not have to do with doping.

Only reason? Or a good reason?

 

[DirtyWorks]

Nothing to do with cheaper travel. The rest of CX pros (men mostly) are racing in Europe for the super prestige series and world cup races.

It has to do with doping while training, but that's cycling for you, it seems it always has to do with doping.

Except, a number of the elite podium riders often go to warmer climates for in-season CX training blocks.

A number of riders have blogged about their higher-volume training blocks inside the rather long CX season over the years since the Internet has become a media outlet. I don't have any links handy, but my recollection on this is pretty good.

Does that help settle the discussion about Vos' possible doping? No. But, I think it gives less weight/priority to the idea that just because a CX rider travels to a warmer climate inside the 'cross season, there's a doping motive.

This concept is specific to CX racing as the podiums are so consistent over an entire season, a super-responder to doping would do the usual hero-to-zero results and immediately their podium performance would become suspect.

 

[Benotti69]

Really?
If only Pat McQuaid & Sean Kelly had listened to your advise.

Kelly and McQuaid went to SA for money racing. Not training.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Kelly and McQuaid went to SA for money racing. Not training.

No doubt they got paid something but the reason to go there in the first place was to train for the following year which was an Olympic year.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Steve Tilford criticises Vos for heading to south Africa to train for World XC champs.

It maybe Vos is way ahead of the competition becuase like others she has taken a dark path to glory.



stevetilford.com.

I agree that perception is as big a dot to connect as testing positive.

Actually - I just went and read the Tilford piece and the CN article he referenced.
Not surprising that you were the one to start stretching an already stretched tale:

Tilford blog:
Finally, I read at the end of this Cyclingnews.com article, that Marianne Vos is heading down to South Africa to train for a month before cross worlds. She did one cross race and now is off to South Africa.

The actual article says:

Vos now heads to South Africa and only returns to the cyclo-cross competition in late December.

The article does not say how long or for what exact reason Vos is going to SA, only when her next event is.

 

[D-Queued]

For those doubting the reasons for a woman cyclist to dope, i ask you to remember Jeannie Longo.

Or

Genevieve Jeanson
Tammy Thomas

These female cyclists can compete with Lance as poster children for doping in cycling, or with Marion Jones for most notorious female dopers.

Never happens here. Nope. Never.

Dave.

 

[blackcat]

Or

Genevieve Jeanson
Tammy Thomas

These female cyclists can compete with Lance and the European M A L E professional peloton over 260 kms

ftfy

should be enough proof. Male peloton ..... ergo

 

[benny_profane]

Actually - I just went and read the Tilford piece and the CN article he referenced.
Not surprising that you were the one to start stretching an already stretched tale:



The actual article says:

The article does not say how long or for what exact reason Vos is going to SA, only when her next event is.

I've been trying to make this point (unsuccessfully) for the last few pages.

 

[theyoungest]

Only reason? Or a good reason?

Only reason. Every other argument gets dismissed. Not even with a counter argument, just dismissed. And then discussion is pointless.

 

[Benotti69]

Actually - I just went and read the Tilford piece and the CN article he referenced.
Not surprising that you were the one to start stretching an already stretched tale:

Nothing stretched imo.

The article does not say how long or for what exact reason Vos is going to SA, only when her next event is.

Keep clicking your little red heels together doc while repeating, "the peloton is clean, the peloton is clean, the peloton is clean"

 

[oldcrank]

Athletes go to South Africa to watch the Rugby? Watch the soccer? No, they go to compete. I think you mean people...athletes go to South Africa to compete not pay respects. Since when has there been a friendly cricket series? Cricket is a serious sport, there are no friendly pleasantries. You are out to destroy your rival. Friendly is a poor word choice. All your examples are poor in the context of an athlete visiting South Africa.

All the sports you mentioned have major corruption, drug and match fixing and that is just in South Africa and the tournaments held there. Athletics from South Africa is dirty. They fired the head of the national athletics board after the debacle two years back...you should remember it, was a big deal. Cycling, well that would arguably be one of the cleaner sports, but it's the worlds best female cyclist in question, so it's suspect. The only sport I'd buy would be hockey. Plenty of hockey tournaments in South Africa. You funnily enough picked all the dodgy sports. Good job

Yes athletes went to South Africa to watch the World Cup
of Soccer. Many thousands of athletes went to watch the
World Cup. Just because you are an athlete does not mean
you cannot also be a spectator if your country/team did
not make it which was the case in my "example". You may
think my "examples" are all poor, but they all in fact happened
(you know, in real life, not the Clinic) and whether or not
you think the sports I mentioned are corrupt or not, the fact
remains there is more than one reason to go to South Africa,
which is the point, and the only point, I was making. I have
no idea what point you are making. Oh, I just remembered,
an neighbour of mine went to SA a few years back for bowls,
an he is a very good all-round athlete.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Nothing stretched imo.



Keep clicking your little red heels together doc while repeating, "the peloton is clean, the peloton is clean, the peloton is clean"

Wow - so, I point out that nowhere in the article does it say what she was doing in SA, how long, or for what purpose and your best rebuttal is to make up that I believe the peloton is clean?

The standard of trolling has really dived here lately.

 

[Hugh Januss]

Only reason. Every other argument gets dismissed. Not even with a counter argument, just dismissed. And then discussion is pointless.

No you are trying to say that if there is another reason to go there, to train in warm weather, then that is somehow proof that the rider is not going to facilitate doping. I say they may well be going for a number of reasons and doping is among them. They are not mutually exclusive.

 

[The Hitch]

Of course travel getting a lot cheaper has nothing to do with it...

That's the clinic for you. Everything must always have to do with doping.

Id be careful to make generalizations. The clinic has traditionally been conveniently dismissed mainly by Lance and Wiggins fans as a deluded "assylum" where everyone accuses everyone of doping. I was hoping after the former people would stop, but alas lessons do not seem to have been learnt.

the reality is that only a small % of the posters here believe everyone is doping. And even fewer look to these trivial arguments about Norhtern Europe etc. Your beef about that is with 1 poster, not the entire clinic.

Even people who suspect Vos may be doping don't really take those conspiracy theories seriously. There are thousands of posters on here, yet the nationalists always try to paint the opinions of 1 or 2 of those as representing the entire clinic. tut tut.

Especially since generalizations can easily be made about you. You believe all dutch people are clean. Afterall youve defended just about every dutch rider on here bar thomas dekker. And id take a guess you were pretty confident about him until 2008.

 

[theyoungest]

No you are trying to say that if there is another reason to go there, to train in warm weather, then that is somehow proof that the rider is not going to facilitate doping. I say they may well be going for a number of reasons and doping is among them. They are not mutually exclusive.

What part of "nothing do to with cheaper travel" leaves room for discussion? That's the post I reacted to, and that's the post you defended as somehow including a reasonable argument.

Even if you do think she goes there to dope, it's probably partly because of cheaper air fare

Especially since generalizations can easily be made about you. You believe all dutch people are clean. Afterall youve defended just about every dutch rider on here bar thomas dekker. And id take a guess you were pretty confident about him until 2008.

Yeah blablabla. Boogerd and E. Dekker were on the juice, I have little doubt about that, but also little proof. Concerning Thomas Dekker you have me confused with mr. Dekker_Tifosi.

More importantly, these guys have little to do with Marianne Vos, except their Dutch passport. When it concerns doping, suddenly this forum gets very emancipated

 

[Benotti69]

Wow - so, I point out that nowhere in the article does it say what she was doing in SA, how long, or for what purpose and your best rebuttal is to make up that I believe the peloton is clean?

The standard of trolling has really dived here lately.

I linked a Steve Tilford post from his blog nothing more, I agreed with SA not being an intelligent choice for training.

Stop attributing more to my posts than that.

Keep on self medicating doc