I just have to ask ? Marianne Vos

[alitogata]

Pre-EPO, it happened. Not all the time, but it certainly happened. Lemond, Hinault, Merckx, Altig, and so on.

And she does miss the top step of the podium sometimes. Look at her Olympic performances. She's been beaten more than once. I think most of us like this facet of the sport. The strongest is not always gauranteed the win.

Dopers like to hide out between dope-cycle peaks because their performances tend to falll off a cliff. That is nothing like Vos. As others have stated her schedule is full, multi-multi discipline, and the performances in that schedule remarkably consistent.

Perhaps I haven't expressed well what I wanted to. I just find quite "suspicious" these consistent performances all year round. My personal experience in sports and training says that is not normal to have permanently good performances without some kind of "assistance". Now.. what kind of assistance can this be, isn't something that I know, but as it is well known there are drugs that are not yet in the doping substances lists.

The other option of course is that Vos is a great athlete and great talent probably the greatest talent that ever passed in women's cycling and that all other women till now were and are just not that gifted.

Anyway.. doping is a curse for cycling ( and sports in general ) because it cancels the real meaning of racing, which in IMHO is to participate and not only to win. And in the end of the day, makes races boring, because the audience know every time, who has more possibilities to win, which is always someone of the same and the same athletes. No surprises, no interest. ( I'm not sure if I used the right word).

 

[alitogata]

[..] Simply start a thread with 'she wins a lot, this can't be true'. And there you go.

Sorry for second post.

Can it be true?
Sometimes I think it "statistically". If one person in five thousand, (or you choose the number it doesn't matter) is so gifted to win that lot, why there aren't more of these gifted athletes racing and having these kind of performances in a 7 billion population planet, but we only hear sporadically about "Vosses" and "Armtrongs" ? ( or whichever name you want.. it doesn't matter too).

Just thinking sometimes..

 

[peterst6906]

Sometimes I think it "statistically". If one person in five thousand, (or you choose the number it doesn't matter) is so gifted to win that lot, why there aren't more of these gifted athletes racing and having these kind of performances in a 7 billion population planet

A good question and I think it would come down to:

1. It is much rarer than 1:5000; and
2. Even for a gifted person, there are many, many variables that need to come together in order for their gift to show through

In relation to point 1, all of the riders at an elite level are gifted. So to shine above them requires someone even further away from the norm than the other elite riders already are. So that requires someone very rare in terms of their ability.

In relation to point 2, there are probably lots of people with the potential to shine in a sport, academically, industry, etc. but the right conditions never come together at the right time for that to occur.

So it's kind of a right person in the right place at the right time kind of thing.

Drugs is a much easier explanation, but there are also freaks out there.

My hope is that Vos is just a freak, but the history of cycling raises big questions about that.

 

[42x16ss]

I've always had the opinion that Vos is simply the female Merckx and in more ways than one.

- Vos is a consumate professional who is in a sport mainly contested by semi-pros. She has been able to dedicate her entire life from late teens to the sport.

- Vos is a natural bike rider. Her pedaling, cadence, climbing style and especially bike handling is superb, even compared to the guys. Just watch her in the CX worlds, Giro Donne, any race. Fleche Wallone last year is the only time I can remember her ever crashing unless she was brought down in the bunch.

-Vos also doesn't dominate every discipline. She still can't TT and is only competitive in smaller bunch sprints.

I do agree that Vos' newly found climbing skills are suspicious but she is still only 25 - young enough to still be in the youth classification if she was male, with room left to improve. I strongly suspect Vos is doping but I also believe that she is an immensely talented natural athlete to start with - not a pure product of doping.

If Vos retires burnt out at 31-32 years old like Merckx, then I would be likely to believe that any doping is minimal. If she continues to dominate for another 10-12 years, then IMO that is another nail in the coffin.

Feel free to pick apart

 

[johanb]

Vos lost 8 kg's in weight to improve her climbing, that was one of her big goals in 2011, to win the Giro Donne, she also improved her TT (she's pretty good at the shorter technical ones, like in the Giro Donne). Though, she still isn't the best at climbing, this year she basically won the Giro Donne on a descent, she was 30s back on the likes of Pooley at the top of the climb, then the descent came, and at the finish she was over a minute ahead of everyone else. I don't know, but a full on doper wouldn't get dropped on the climb I'd think.

 

[TourOfSardinia]

Vos lost 8 kg's in weight to improve her climbing, that was one of her big goals in 2011, to win the Giro Donne, she also improved her TT (she's pretty good at the shorter technical ones, like in the Giro Donne). Though, she still isn't the best at climbing, this year she basically won the Giro Donne on a descent, she was 30s back on the likes of Pooley at the top of the climb, then the descent came, and at the finish she was over a minute ahead of everyone else. I don't know, but a full on doper wouldn't get dropped on the climb I'd think.

fair point - jb
After the sprinters' disgrace (Cippo') the new mantra is "Descender don't dope" - Vos, Savoldelli, Nibs?, Samu? Glbert and Cadel (watch it!)

 

[Benotti69]

Vos lost 8 kg's in weight to improve her climbing, that was one of her big goals in 2011, to win the Giro Donne, she also improved her TT (she's pretty good at the shorter technical ones, like in the Giro Donne). Though, she still isn't the best at climbing, this year she basically won the Giro Donne on a descent, she was 30s back on the likes of Pooley at the top of the climb, then the descent came, and at the finish she was over a minute ahead of everyone else. I don't know, but a full on doper wouldn't get dropped on the climb I'd think.

Sorry but that is what causes the big question marks. Riders lose weight and improve TTs?????????

 

[sniper]

Sorry but that is what causes the big question marks. Riders lose weight and improve TTs?????????

time for some to smell the coffee

 

[GJB123]

Sorry but that is what causes the big question marks. Riders lose weight and improve TTs?????????

No I would say she hasn't gotten much better at longer ITT's. If you have ever seen her sit on a TT-bike you will notice that her position is less than ideal. I know she worked hard on getting that better and she did improve slightly, but not by any big margins (dare I use that word ), especially if we look at the shorter or more technical ITT's, at which she already used to be quite good. But if you look at the "real time triallists' ITT's" for which you would seek raw power and a very good position on the TT-bike, she is nowhere and will regularly lose out even in the Netherlands to the likes of Loes Gunnewijk, Ellen van Dijk, Mirjam Melchers and Kisrten Wild. She won the Dutch ITT (by her standards) only twice, was 4th and 5th as a senior and was 3rd twice as a junior. And for example in the 2011 Giro where she won a lot of stages she didn't win the 16k ITT (came in 3rd).

Again I am not saying she is definitely squeaky clean, but so far I remain to be convinced she is dirty as claimed here.

 

[TheEnoculator]

Of course you can lose weight and improve TT. That's called "increasing your power-to-weight ratio". Last I checked you can do that without drugs.

Vos has a VO2 max close to and even surpasses some of the Blanco men, so is it so surprising that she's beating the women peloton to a pulp? She's like a female version of Lars Boom, except she's naturally way more talented than Boom. I agree her achievements so far is unheard of in this generation, but I honestly don't see any indication that she's doping. Her consistency in winning only means she's no ordinary woman, as stated above.

Did you see her in the London TT? She was getting passed left and right that it was actually embarassing.

 

[johanb]

Sorry but that is what causes the big question marks. Riders lose weight and improve TTs?????????

Doesn't doping do the exact opposite, increase muscles/weight? Which is the reason many find L. van Moorsel so suspicious as she claimed to have annorexia when she wasn't competing. And like said above, Vos improved her TT, she can win if the TT is really short and technical (like this year's Giro Donne, a 7.2 K TT in Rome which she won, but she's still hopeless on the longer less technical TT's).

 

[GJB123]

Doesn't doping do the exact opposite, increase muscles/weight? Which is the reason many find L. van Moorsel so suspicious as she claimed to have annorexia when she wasn't competing. And like said above, Vos improved her TT, she can win if the TT is really short and technical (like this year's Giro Donne, a 7.2 K TT in Rome which she won, but she's still hopeless on the longer less technical TT's).

She isn't exactly hopeless, but she isn't burning up the road either. Sometimes she is reasonably good (as in managing to keep losses at a minimum) in the longer ITT and sometimes she just loses big time (Olympic ITT 2012). She ain't no Wiggins in that respect, who went from being (at best) average at climbing and reasonably good at longer ITT (good at the short "pursuit-distance" type of work like prologues) to well above average/good in climbing by losing weight and and at the same beating known ITT-powerhouses such as Fabian Cancellara and Tony Martin in longer flat ITT's.

 

[Benotti69]

Retroactive testing reveals suspicious activity in South Africa

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/retroactive-testing-reveals-suspicious-activity-in-south-africa

Good place to train allegedly

 

[GJB123]

So let me get this straight. You can't train in Girona in particular or Spain in general because of the rampant PED-abuse there. You can't train in Italy because at best all well-known doping doctors are Italian. You can't train in South-Africa because of rampant PED-abuse there. You can't train on Tenerife because of Fuentes and because we all know why Sky trains there. You can't train in Hawaii because Hesjedal trains there and we all know why he does that and naturally you can't train in Israel because sniper says so.

In your reckoning, is there actually any country riders could train in that would not automatically associate them with PED-abuse? This is a serious question, because generally a good training place needs at least good weather, varied landscape, reasonably high standard of living (for hygiene purposes at least), reasonably good roads, easy air transfer and preferably as little time zones as possible between home and place of training. So please do tell us where a rider can train without being accused of PED-abuse instantly?

 

[D-Queued]

Outer Mongolia.

Dave.

 

[GJB123]

Outer Mongolia.

Dave.

I don't know. Are we absolutely sure Yak milk isn't performance enhancing?

 

[D-Queued]

I don't know. Are we absolutely sure Yak milk isn't performance enhancing?

The supply chain is stretched thin.

CHALLENGES OF THE MONGOLIAN CUSTOMS: SUPPLY CHAIN SECURITY AND RISK MANAGEMENT

Statistic shows that 158748.4 tons of chemicals imported to Mongolia from China in the last 5 years

Hardly enough for a single Pro Tour squad.

Dave.

 

[Benotti69]

So let me get this straight. You can't train in Girona in particular or Spain in general because of the rampant PED-abuse there. You can't train in Italy because at best all well-known doping doctors are Italian. You can't train in South-Africa because of rampant PED-abuse there. You can't train on Tenerife because of Fuentes and because we all know why Sky trains there. You can't train in Hawaii because Hesjedal trains there and we all know why he does that and naturally you can't train in Israel because sniper says so.

In your reckoning, is there actually any country riders could train in that would not automatically associate them with PED-abuse? This is a serious question, because generally a good training place needs at least good weather, varied landscape, reasonably high standard of living (for hygiene purposes at least), reasonably good roads, easy air transfer and preferably as little time zones as possible between home and place of training. So please do tell us where a rider can train without being accused of PED-abuse instantly?

What did the riders do before air travel became cheap?

They trained in EU mostly as they were Europeans.

 

[GJB123]

What did the riders do before air travel became cheap?

They trained in EU mostly as they were Europeans.

EU is out of the question, that is clear. Spain, Italy all no-go area's according to your logic.

 

[johanb]

What did the riders do before air travel became cheap?

They trained in EU mostly as they were Europeans.

You do know it was not just Vos going there to train? It was a training camp by the Dutch national federation, Iris Slappendel, Kirsten Wild, Anna van der Breggen, Lucinda Brand, Martine Bras where all there with Vos.

 

[GJB123]

You do know it was not just Vos going there to train? It was a training camp by the Dutch national federation, Iris Slappendel, Kirsten Wild, Anna van der Breggen, Lucinda Brand, Martine Bras where all there with Vos.

No off course he doesn't know. He doesn't care. All he cares about is connecting some real and some imaginary dots and come to the foregone conclusion that she must be doping. Every rider is, damn it.

 

[Benotti69]

EU is out of the question, that is clear. Spain, Italy all no-go area's according to your logic.

What's wrong with France, nice wine, Belgium, lovely beer and frittes, Germany, quality cars.

Spain has no anti doping worth speaking off. Italy is starting to get with the program, but way too late and those sneaky Italians are good at cheating under everyone's noses.

Stop taking the thread of topic.

Vos has no need to travel to train as she allegedly has buckets of talent and is a one off that should be racing against men she is that good and 'naturally' talented.

 

[GJB123]

What's wrong with France, nice wine, Belgium, lovely beer and frittes, Germany, quality cars.

Spain has no anti doping worth speaking off. Italy is starting to get with the program, but way too late and those sneaky Italians are good at cheating under everyone's noses.

Stop taking the thread of topic.

Vos has no need to travel to train as she allegedly has buckets of talent and is a one off that should be racing against men she is that good and 'naturally' talented.

Th problem is that the place where she trains says didley sh!t. The fact that she might as well train in the Netherlands (which she does more than not), doesn't mean she can't go anywhere else, now does it. And if we look hard enough I think we can find plenty of things to say about France (Dr. Mabuse), Germany (Freiburg, XC skiing, former East-Germany) and Belgium (Vdb, Leinders, Voets, Pottes Belges, etc.). The point being that if you want to cheat one country is as suitable as the next. Now I know that doesn't fit in well with your world of prejudice and preconceived ideas, but so be it.

 

[Benotti69]

No off course he doesn't know. He doesn't care. All he cares about is connecting some real and some imaginary dots and come to the foregone conclusion that she must be doping. Every rider is, damn it.

I do care. It is the sport that doesn't give a fig about the fans or even the cyclists.

Dont believe the hype about a cleanER sport.

 

[sniper]

Th problem is that the place where she trains says didley sh!t. The fact that she might as well train in the Netherlands (which she does more than not), doesn't mean she can't go anywhere else, now does it. And if we look hard enough I think we can find plenty of things to say about France (Dr. Mabuse), Germany (Freiburg, XC skiing, former East-Germany) and Belgium (Vdb, Leinders, Votes, Pottes Belges, etc.). The point being that if you want to cheat one country is as suitable as the next. Now I know that doesn't fit in well with your world of prejudice and preconceived ideas, but so be it.

you have a link to back that up?

No doubt you can cheat in germany, belgium and the netherlands, but history shows that one country/place is not necessarily as suitable as the other.
there have been patterns and dopers' havens, even though it may have slipped your attention.
girona/spain was(is?) one such haven, tenerife was (is?) another. there are indications that south africa is now popular.
i don't see the point in denying that such geographic preferences have existed and probably continue to exist. Of course, we can't pretend to always successfully identify such preferences and we may be wrong sometimes, but it's thought provoking and thus useful to speculate about it.