I just have to ask ? Marianne Vos

[Benotti69]

Will we ever know ? Word in the peloton was that Longo had to take a couple of long term sessions out of competition after testing. The results were notified to the French Federation but way before Lance, an icon was too big to fail. A "solution" was agreed - you are not going to compete in anything big for XX months and we are not going public with your result. I have heard that from two different sources many years apart, but whether both came from a single gossip source I don't know. Longo being too big to fail in France, at the time in question - I can believe.

"Are you really going to go public - look the Tour is a travesty of a sporting contest, every one of the top 100 are consuming enough EPO to keep 3 hospitals going full time ?" And so the punishment given quietly behind closed doors.

The problem with sports is the anti doping is run by federations and therefore inherently corrupt.

If Vos failed a test, the damage to the women's sport would be big, especially in Holland.

 

[GJB123]

The problem with sports is the anti doping is run by federations and therefore inherently corrupt.

If Vos failed a test, the damage to the women's sport would be big, especially in Holland.

The sport isn't big in the Netherlands although Marianne Vos is. The only women's racing we get to see are the various world championships she competes is and the Olympics.

The main question for me that remains is that she annihilated every field in cycling and skating that she ever entered into from very young onwards. I don't think people are seriously suggesting she was on EPO or blood transfusions at the ages 11, 12, etc. The point is she could just be a genuine, total freak of nature and personally I truly believe she is. Does that mean she isn't on anything? I don't know, but I genuinely believe she is that good that she would be winning either way.

 

[sniper]

The sport isn't big in the Netherlands although Marianne Vos is. The only women's racing we get to see are the various world championships she competes is and the Olympics.

The main question for me that remains is that she annihilated every field in cycling and skating that she ever entered into from very young onwards. I don't think people are seriously suggesting she was on EPO or blood transfusions at the ages 11, 12, etc. The point is she could just be a genuine, total freak of nature and personally I truly believe she is. Does that mean she isn't on anything? I don't know, but I genuinely believe she is that good that she would be winning either way.

in terms of natural born talent, i agree she might indeed be the freak you suggest she is.
of course she wasn't hooked up on needles at age 12, but back then she wasn't competing against dopers either.
level playing field at that age.
not anymore, though.
an interesting question is at what age, roughly, does the field stop being a level playing field. whatever that age is/was, my guess is she'd do what it takes to be at the very top and i'm not sure if bread and water is enough.

 

[D-Queued]

The sport isn't big in the Netherlands although Marianne Vos is. The only women's racing we get to see are the various world championships she competes is and the Olympics.

The main question for me that remains is that she annihilated every field in cycling and skating that she ever entered into from very young onwards. I don't think people are seriously suggesting she was on EPO or blood transfusions at the ages 11, 12, etc. The point is she could just be a genuine, total freak of nature and personally I truly believe she is. Does that mean she isn't on anything? I don't know, but I genuinely believe she is that good that she would be winning either way.

Fiction.

Dave.

 

[Benotti69]

The sport isn't big in the Netherlands although Marianne Vos is. The only women's racing we get to see are the various world championships she competes is and the Olympics.

The main question for me that remains is that she annihilated every field in cycling and skating that she ever entered into from very young onwards. I don't think people are seriously suggesting she was on EPO or blood transfusions at the ages 11, 12, etc. The point is she could just be a genuine, total freak of nature and personally I truly believe she is. Does that mean she isn't on anything? I don't know, but I genuinely believe she is that good that she would be winning either way.

Winning either way? WTF does that mean?

If she is that good why the need for dope and i dont think she is anymore a freak of nature than doper Merckx. Freak of nature or greedy? I go for greedy.

 

[SeriousSam]

A common misconception is that someone talented enough to be able to win clean is less likely to dope.

 

[sponsor]

Does anyone think its a bit harder to tell with women? I mean in football / FIFA they are having issues verifying they ARE women - and some were not.

With the variations of females in this world, to have some women with a lot higher male hormones and male physiques than others sounds like an advantage for cycling, and also possibly quite natural.

 

[Dekker_Tifosi]

At least she doesn't seem to be immune to over-racing. She's given up in some races lately because she didn't feel fit. And now she was dropped in a TTT, which would never happen with a normal Vos..

 

[Cloxxki]

I watched that boxing in vid and didn't see anything. Just a wide road and no position changes. Perhaps the video changed for the indicated time marks.

When she was around 14, I saw Vos in the Harderwijk cross. Girls started a few minutes after the boys. Who were WC podium boys, her age. She hauled them in, all but the first few. Around that age she started winning national MTB races.
At 16, she was so tough on the MTB that a National top-10 elite man could not drop her on a 2 hour bike tour. These Dutch and Belgian MTB tours are basically races against whomever you find on the trail, or start with. I've dug deeper in these than sanctioned races. Anyway, her talent is off the scales.

At the same time, she comes from a tight cycling family. Always guarded by parents and (cycling) brother. Creepy, in my book. Sports families where all revolves around the kid's sport creep me out. Young doping positives come from such families. Immense pressure on the kid (win for parental love), even if parents aren't administering the first needles.
From the places I've run into Vos, she's a true fan of sports. Shows up to MTB races she does not enter in, finding a way to get there during a road training. Has never seemed any less than a genuine friendly and modest person. That is kind of rare at her level of excellence.

So many mixed hints. The fanatic and protective family, the insane talent (which could have sparked the former), the dominance, the overwhelming kind demeanor... It could go either way.
She really makes the great male cyclists of all time seem like awkward ducklings in terms of results, while in personality off the bike, she totally IS that duckling.

Another thing. I seem to remember her teen acne being severe. Not great for any girl to cope with. How common is this among healthy endurance sports teens? Is there is difference with non-sporty teens? I've ridden with only few guys who suffered from acne, but been to school with more, it seems. Anyone know more? We all know what acne in successful sports women CAN come from... I've seen it on Dutch sportswomen in all the wrong points of their careers.

 

[sniper]

I watched that boxing in vid and didn't see anything. Just a wide road and no position changes. Perhaps the video changed for the indicated time marks.

When she was around 14, I saw Vos in the Harderwijk cross. Girls started a few minutes after the boys. Who were WC podium boys, her age. She hauled them in, all but the first few. Around that age she started winning national MTB races.
At 16, she was so tough on the MTB that a National top-10 elite man could not drop her on a 2 hour bike tour. These Dutch and Belgian MTB tours are basically races against whomever you find on the trail, or start with. I've dug deeper in these than sanctioned races. Anyway, her talent is off the scales.

At the same time, she comes from a tight cycling family. Always guarded by parents and (cycling) brother. Creepy, in my book. Sports families where all revolves around the kid's sport creep me out. Young doping positives come from such families. Immense pressure on the kid (win for parental love), even if parents aren't administering the first needles.
From the places I've run into Vos, she's a true fan of sports. Shows up to MTB races she does not enter in, finding a way to get there during a road training. Has never seemed any less than a genuine friendly and modest person. That is kind of rare at her level of excellence.

So many mixed hints. The fanatic and protective family, the insane talent (which could have sparked the former), the dominance, the overwhelming kind demeanor... It could go either way.
She really makes the great male cyclists of all time seem like awkward ducklings in terms of results, while in personality off the bike, she totally IS that duckling.

Another thing. I seem to remember her teen acne being severe. Not great for any girl to cope with. How common is this among healthy endurance sports teens? Is there is difference with non-sporty teens? I've ridden with only few guys who suffered from acne, but been to school with more, it seems. Anyone know more? We all know what acne in successful sports women CAN come from... I've seen it on Dutch sportswomen in all the wrong points of their careers.

interesting email.
you gotta wonder about Dutch ladies cycling. Could there have been institutionalized doping from early levels onwards?

interesting point re: acne.
Steroid acne is a well-known phenomenon.
Particularly relates to corticosteroids.
http://www.dermnetnz.org/acne/steroid-acne.html

 

[Benotti69]

At least she doesn't seem to be immune to over-racing. She's given up in some races lately because she didn't feel fit. And now she was dropped in a TTT, which would never happen with a normal Vos..

.....or maybe they are doing some PR. Will she win the worlds after being dropped from the TTT? If her form is bad in TTT how can she then win the worlds?

 

[Benotti69]

How about she doesn't win the Worlds. How did she get dropped ? I just can't imagine her being dropped in the TTT unless she wanted to be dropped, (unless of course she is very poorly). That would have put her as competing but not finishing with the others. How do you sanction someone who is too big to fail ?

The thing is i dont see anyone as too big to fail. The problem is this attitude of 'too big to fail'. That creates a monster and that absolutely needs to be killed.

Armstrong thought he was too big.......

 

[zigmeister]

Her getting dropped was a blessing in disguise. Otherwise, she would have likely been in the pile-up and possibly injuring herself, missing the road race.

Doping...yeah, as mentioned above, a few girls can/do get acne. Seen those Proactiv commercials in the US?

But, some reasons, particularly athletes, it can be obviously due to roiding.

Her getting dropped was a surprise for sure. Maybe her teammates were doped, and she just couldn't keep up?? haha

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Riding for Ferrand-Prévot to win a sprint from a group with Olds and Bronzini in it is one hell of a risky strategy, don't you think? Would have made a lot more sense when Pauline and Rossella Ratto were trying to chase on alone (i.e. Pauline was, Ratto had ELB up front) rather than once the group with the specialist sprinters in it arrived. Even then it would be risky as I would normally back Armitstead and Johansson to beat PFP in a flat sprint finish.

 

[sniper]

She could keep up alright. Only an idiot would think she couldn't.

She could start a sprint 300m out with a team-mate on her wheel and look round 4 times in the next 200m. Only an idiot would think she was riding to win.

So glad this is the new cleans and transparent era.

i'm with you on this.
First you wonder why she didn't try harder to stay up front with that quartet.
Then when they come together, her first push forwards in the final 300 is mightily impressive.
She then mysteriously stops pushing the pedals in the final 100 meters, followed by some playacting shaking her head to fake disappointment.

 

[zigmeister]

She could keep up alright. Only an idiot would think she couldn't.

She could start a sprint 300m out with a team-mate on her wheel and look round 4 times in the next 200m. Only an idiot would think she was riding to win.

So glad this is the new cleans and transparent era.

i'm with you on this.
First you wonder why she didn't try harder to stay up front with that quartet.
Then when they come together, her first push forwards in the final 300 is mightily impressive.
She then mysteriously stops pushing the pedals in the final 100 meters, followed by some playacting shaking her head to fake disappointment.

Right guys...as you saw, she got smoked in the woman's road race yesterday. Not a chance. Her conditioning is garbage and preparations apparently for the World's. She couldn't even hang with her team in the TTT. To say she could easily hang and just decided to drop off is absolutely absurd as an excuse for her terribey prep/conditioning leading into the World's. That is no teammate I want to have around if she is just willing to drop off a team event, then expect everybody to turn around and work for her on the RR.

Kind of like the Cancellera routine. Who BTW, has no shot in he&& to win that. But ditching his team in the TTT for the RR thinking he does is a joke. Selfish.


Vos Must have been taking it easy and eating junk food since the TDF sprint victory. Her fitness wasn't very good at all. Even with a big break in between events she competed.

 

[Freddythefrog]

In http://time.com/4177537/iaaf-russia-doping-scandal/
in athletics I read this and thought of this thread.

"—Internal IAAF papers before the 2012 London Olympics proposed hiding doping sanctions.......
“It is impossible to ‘discreetly’ remove from competition for two years athletes who are multiple world and/or Olympic champions. Their absence from major competitions will inevitably prompt questions and investigations from experts and the media.”

But not if the "experts" and the "media" are related to professional cycling. The "experts" and "media" in our sport make sleepwalking look like a sensory overload activity.

 

[Jacques de Molay]

Re:

“It is impossible to ‘discreetly’ remove from competition for two years athletes who are multiple world and/or Olympic champions. Their absence from major competitions will inevitably prompt questions and investigations from experts and the media.”

I have no idea what you're talking about.

 

[Irondan]

Re: Re:

“It is impossible to ‘discreetly’ remove from competition for two years athletes who are multiple world and/or Olympic champions. Their absence from major competitions will inevitably prompt questions and investigations from experts and the media.”

I have no idea what you're talking about.

That's an interesting theory that could very well have some truth to it. Marianne Vos dominated women's cycling in a way that could be considered 'Jordanesque'.

Her absence from cycling lately isn't really comparable though because she rode a couple times last year and in 2014 she won 20+ races. So a secret suspension is probably not what's going on with her.

Personally, my opinion is that her 2015 season was lost not because she was doping, but maybe because she wasn't doping...

 

[GJB123]

Re: Re:

“It is impossible to ‘discreetly’ remove from competition for two years athletes who are multiple world and/or Olympic champions. Their absence from major competitions will inevitably prompt questions and investigations from experts and the media.”

I have no idea what you're talking about.

That's an interesting theory that could very well have some truth to it. Marianne Vos dominated women's cycling in a way that could be considered 'Jordanesque'.

Her absence from cycling lately isn't really comparable though because she rode a couple times last year and in 2014 she won 20+ races. So a secret suspension is probably not what's going on with her.

Personally, my opinion is that her 2015 season was lost not because she was doping, but maybe because she wasn't doping...

Or maybe, just maybe, she actually did have a hamstring injury and was indeed very much overtrained.

A discreet suspension seems very much out of the question because she hasn't been out continuously.

 

[Benotti69]

I somehow think the women get tested even less than the men as there is even less money in that end of 'pro' cycling.

I have no doubt Vos dopes. She may be the Merckx of women's cycling, but Eddy juiced himself to the gills.

 

[sniper]

with Cookson more still than with McQuaid you see how antidoping is being moderated, used as a PR tool.

- hang some obvious bad guys out to dry (astana)
- hide positives that could be more damning from a PR perspective (Menchov, JTL, Vos) away from the public eye.

Very IAAF-esque.
Add in Cookson's direct line to Saugy, and Saugy's direct line to IAAF. I think Cookson is working from the same manual as Coe/Diack/Dolle on how to 'manage' antidoping.

I wouldnt be surprised if they'd let Vos ride some races so as not to raise any suspicion.

 

[Benotti69]

Vos returning to racing this year.........

Ms Vos tweeted Sven 'Leinders' Nys

Marianne Vos @marianne_vos

Good luck to Mr. CX @svennys in his last race today. A stunning carreer to look back to and an open road in...

Also Ms Vos likes to train in SA where SAIDS have no right to perform out of competition tests on non SA registered riders. Not low risk. No risk.

 

[GJB123]

Re:

I somehow think the women get tested even less than the men as there is even less money in that end of 'pro' cycling.

I have no doubt Vos dopes. She may be the Merckx of women's cycling, but Eddy juiced himself to the gills.

Then again, is there any rider that doesn't dope in your book? Just one will do. So if we delete Vos fro the sentence it would still correctly state your conviction, right?

 

[GJB123]

Re:

with Cookson more still than with McQuaid you see how antidoping is being moderated, used as a PR tool.

- hang some obvious bad guys out to dry (astana)
- hide positives that could be more damning from a PR perspective (Menchov, JTL, Vos) away from the public eye.

Very IAAF-esque.
Add in Cookson's direct line to Saugy, and Saugy's direct line to IAAF. I think Cookson is working from the same manual as Coe/Diack/Dolle on how to 'manage' antidoping.

I wouldnt be surprised if they'd let Vos ride some races so as not to raise any suspicion.

If you start making all kinds of assumptions out of the blue (without any evidence, albeit circumstantial) you can basically reason away any sensible argument and discussion.