I think Vaughters really wants to sign Contador:

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Anonymous

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BanProCycling said:
What happened to the ignore button guys?
I unplugged mine because I was curious what backward thinking you might be offering today. So far, I'm not disappointed. Beware though, there is only so much jibberish one can take. The key is moderation. If you will mix in a few more facts with your comments I'd be inclined to keep the ignore switch off for, I dunno, a couple more hours? Do we have a deal?
 
Mar 13, 2009
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JV sort of tripped himself up. Pre-race, spin was on riders losing 8-10 kgs, then going uphill like a mountain goat.

Post hoc spin, riders hitting the same power they have for their career. Non-seqitur. Certainly there had to be some functional muscle loss than contributed to a lower power output.

still alot of spin.

Vande Velde's GT classement results prior to Garmin:
85th 1999 Tour
DNF 2001 Tour
56th 2004 Tour
114th 2005 Giro
31st 2005 Vuelta
24th 2006 Tour
25th 2007 Tour
39th 2007 Vuelta

I think Vaughters forgets (or does not know) Bernhard Kohl finished 3rd in the Dauphine in 2006. So, he had much better GT pedigree than Vande Velde using that as a starting point.
 
Mar 18, 2009
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blackcat said:
JV sort of tripped himself up. Pre-race, spin was on riders losing 8-10 kgs, then going uphill like a mountain goat.

Post hoc spin, riders hitting the same power they have for their career. Non-seqitur. Certainly there had to be some functional muscle loss than contributed to a lower power output.

still alot of spin.

Vande Velde's GT classement results prior to Garmin:
85th 1999 Tour
DNF 2001 Tour
56th 2004 Tour
114th 2005 Giro
31st 2005 Vuelta
24th 2006 Tour
25th 2007 Tour
39th 2007 Vuelta

I think Vaughters forgets (or does not know) Bernhard Kohl finished 3rd in the Dauphine in 2006. So, he had much better GT pedigree than Vande Velde using that as a starting point.
I disagree...the Dauphine is not the Tour. Gotta compare apples to apples.
 
Mar 13, 2009
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TRDean said:
I disagree...the Dauphine is not the Tour. Gotta compare apples to apples.
Kohl was what? 24, 25? Seems to me, that result showed much more, than Christian Vande Velde or Wiggins had done in a Protour race that traversed numerous HC and cat1 climbs, and with a legit Queen stage.

Ofcourse, we can compare Dunkirk and Luxembourg to the Tour if you wish. Apples to apples you know
 
Jun 18, 2009
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blackcat said:
JV sort of tripped himself up. Pre-race, spin was on riders losing 8-10 kgs, then going uphill like a mountain goat.

Post hoc spin, riders hitting the same power they have for their career. Non-seqitur. Certainly there had to be some functional muscle loss than contributed to a lower power output.
not to let facts or science get in the way of your bias, but honestly, what the hell does muscle loss have to do with sustained power output in an endurance sport (hint: the answer is 'next to nothing').

You're showing your ignorance in your non-stop smear campaign.



blackcat said:
Vande Velde's GT classement results prior to Garmin:
85th 1999 Tour
DNF 2001 Tour
56th 2004 Tour
114th 2005 Giro
31st 2005 Vuelta
24th 2006 Tour
25th 2007 Tour
39th 2007 Vuelta

I think Vaughters forgets (or does not know) Bernhard Kohl finished 3rd in the Dauphine in 2006. So, he had much better GT pedigree than Vande Velde using that as a starting point.
Again, another newsflash: riders riding in support of other riders, or hunting for stages, aren't battling to finish 16th. Just because a guy finishes 24th doesn't mean he's the 24th best rider in the race. I would assume anyone even reading cyclingnews would understand this fact. Obviously, though, this is what happens when one makes assumptions...
 
Mar 13, 2009
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131313 said:
not to let facts or science get in the way of your bias, but honestly, what the hell does muscle loss have to do with sustained power output in an endurance sport (hint: the answer is 'next to nothing').

You're showing your ignorance in your non-stop smear campaign.





Again, another newsflash: riders riding in support of other riders, or hunting for stages, aren't battling to finish 16th. Just because a guy finishes 24th doesn't mean he's the 24th best rider in the race. I would assume anyone even reading cyclingnews would understand this fact. Obviously, though, this is what happens when one makes assumptions...
I already qualified that 131313.

Multiple posts have qualified taking one result, out of context, and the fact riders soft pedal in, once their job is done.

But if you look at riders like Heras and Azevedo who rode into 4th or 5th place, as support riders, and Hincapie, who rode into the top 20, it is not out of bounds, to ride high into the classement as a domestique.

Weight loss? Hmmm, Michael Rogers might say something to that. Lets see what Cancellara does, when he loses 8-10kgs and gets down to 75 kgs or less, for a tilt at GC at the Tour.

Still my money is on Cancellara at BMC in 2011, riding for yellow. Look how he will put away Wiggins. He will pump him.
 
Aug 18, 2009
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blackcat said:
But if you look at riders like Heras and Azevedo who rode into 4th or 5th place, as support riders, and Hincapie, who rode into the top 20, it is not out of bounds, to ride high into the classement as a domestique.
But Heras and Azevedo came in 4th and 5th in years when their respective teams won the team competition, which meant they had strong teams around them and they weren't the only ones pulling for the leader.
 
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Dude17 said:
But Heras and Azevedo came in 4th and 5th in years when their respective teams won the team competition, which meant they had strong teams around them and they weren't the only ones pulling for the leader.
grasping at straws, you could argue with fewer helpers, it would mean that C VdV had to be there on the final climb for as long as possible to close the gaps.

There is any way you can look at it.

As 131313 rightly pointed out, that when a rider is riding in support of his team leader, he is getting paid to conserve his energy and put it all at the disposal of his captain. May mean soft pedalling in the chronos and taking the last climb easy when your job has done.

So there is no real way to look at it.

What I see is, Kohl showing much more with his 3rd in Dauphine in 2006 as a 24yo, than Wiggins or VdV ever had in their career as 28yo and 32yo. I also think Vaughters is not dumb enough to run a systemic or even a look no evil hear no evil program. But, Wiggins and VdV's performances raise huge red flags.

And I think Vaughters also shows bad faith in negotiating with Contador, and raising the prospect of hiring Landis if he beat the rap. Could have atleast asked Werner Franke to open his books. This is bad faith and it conflicts with his vision or publicised remit to run a team that eschews a medical program. Wiggins hemoglobin spiking concerns the Danish experts, but it does not seem to concern Vaughters. It should. There are lots of conflicts there, and they are glaring.

Go quiet on the clean stuff, like the rest of the peloton, or get it genuinely squeaky clean. Simple.
 
Jun 18, 2009
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blackcat said:
I already qualified that 131313.

Multiple posts have qualified taking one result, out of context, and the fact riders soft pedal in, once their job is done.

But if you look at riders like Heras and Azevedo who rode into 4th or 5th place, as support riders, and Hincapie, who rode into the top 20, it is not out of bounds, to ride high into the classement as a domestique.
it certainly isn't. Ignoring the common thread of the above riders though, they were more what I would refer to as 'protected domestiques', i.e. higher on the pecking order then CVV. Guys like CVV were more likely the guys told to soft-pedal earlier. In that situation, if you don't listen, you end up looking for work rather quickly.

blackcat said:
Weight loss? Hmmm, Michael Rogers might say something to that. Lets see what Cancellara does, when he loses 8-10kgs and gets down to 75 kgs or less, for a tilt at GC at the Tour.

Still my money is on Cancellara at BMC in 2011, riding for yellow. Look how he will put away Wiggins. He will pump him.
Forget an anecdote of one guy (who lost weight, trained to hard and is perpetually sick). Just answer a simple question for me: how does losing weight have a negative effect on sustained power output? by what physiological mechanism will this power loss occur? I'm all ears, seriously.
 
Mar 18, 2009
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131313 said:
Just answer a simple question for me: how does losing weight have a negative effect on sustained power output? by what physiological mechanism will this power loss occur? I'm all ears, seriously.
I asked a similar question in another thread, but from the reverse perspective. When cyclists are already at < 10% body fat and they lose another 5 kg (for argument's sake), I would imagine that they are not only losing fat but also some muscle mass. If so, does loss of muscle mass result in loss of power output? I don't know the answer to this question, but my automatic assumption is that there would have to be some loss of power output.
 
Mar 13, 2009
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131313 said:
it certainly isn't. Ignoring the common thread of the above riders though, they were more what I would refer to as 'protected domestiques', i.e. higher on the pecking order then CVV. Guys like CVV were more likely the guys told to soft-pedal earlier. In that situation, if you don't listen, you end up looking for work rather quickly.



Forget an anecdote of one guy (who lost weight, trained to hard and is perpetually sick). Just answer a simple question for me: how does losing weight have a negative effect on sustained power output? by what physiological mechanism will this power loss occur? I'm all ears, seriously.
the evidence is thus, anecdotal.

We would have to think Wiggins is the biggest fool on earth, to have this talent, and give away a 1million euro salary, to ride for 80k euro, and 25k lottery grant from British Cycling. Just stay off the fried food Bradley, lose the 10 kgs, and become the best rider in the Protour. Gees, those T-Mobile directeurs have $hite for brains yeah? Why is anyone over 80kgs? Why cannot Boonen and Cancellara and Hushovd lose 15 kgs, and still win green jerseys. Common sense.

The guy had to have lost functional muscle from his power producing area, pretty obvious. That is if he did lose 11 kg which was the high estimate, and 6-8 kg from other estimates.

What is the reason to smear Rogers? He is a very hard working, and determined rider, who lost weight too, and should have ridden into the yellow jersey in 2007 before a dodgy tubular job. Rogers has won 3 world tt champs, Wiggins never won one, what was his best? 5th? Tuft has a second. Those guys will be on the podium next year, and you really should not smear hard working riders 131313.
 
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131313 on another thread I think you were more than happy to smear Oscar Sevilla and Paco Mancebo without any evidence. Seems like pro anglophone bias verging on bigotry. Hmmm, what is this thread titled? I think JV may have been interested in Contador at one point. So, perhaps you could point some fingers if you have a thing for Mancebo and Sevilla. I do not see you putting up evidence against these riders.
 
Jun 18, 2009
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blackcat said:
131313 on another thread I think you were more than happy to smear Oscar Sevilla and Paco Mancebo without any evidence. Seems like pro anglophone bias verging on bigotry. Hmmm, what is this thread titled? I think JV may have been interested in Contador at one point. So, perhaps you could point some fingers if you have a thing for Mancebo and Sevilla. I do not see you putting up evidence against these riders.
I missed the part where Wiggins was involved with Puerto....or riding for a team with numerous dopers, both prior and current (how many people have been suspended while riding for Slipstream?).

No one on Wiggin's team has ever tried to sell me drugs, either.

As far as 'bigotry', that's laughable. Wasn't I just 'smearing' Rogers, according to you? Also, while I have no idea if Contador is doping or not, I'm always quickly (and have numerous times) defended the fact that this performance is not out of the realm of possibility, despite people's repeated attempt to twist the facts otherwise. I actually wouldn't be shocked if he were clean.

Still, you haven't answered the question (which is fine, as there's no legitimate way you can...loss of adipose tissue and even muscle mass (to a point, obviously) isn't going to negatively affect endurance cycling power.

Lastly, I defend most vocally riders that I know, or when I have first hand information that they're clean (like Wiggins). Since I'm a US-based pro, that may be why I may seem like an 'anglophone'. These are the people I know.

I don't know a damn thing about Condator but I hate stupidity, which is why I'm quick to point out the B.S that surrounds the 'he must have a vo2 max of 112' or whatever...
 
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Anonymous

Guest
131313 said:
I missed the part where Wiggins was involved with Puerto....or riding for a team with numerous dopers, both prior and current (how many people have been suspended while riding for Slipstream?).

No one on Wiggin's team has ever tried to sell me drugs, either.

As far as 'bigotry', that's laughable. Wasn't I just 'smearing' Rogers, according to you? Also, while I have no idea if Contador is doping or not, I'm always quickly (and have numerous times) defended the fact that this performance is not out of the realm of possibility, despite people's repeated attempt to twist the facts otherwise. I actually wouldn't be shocked if he were clean.

Still, you haven't answered the question (which is fine, as there's no legitimate way you can...loss of adipose tissue and even muscle mass (to a point, obviously) isn't going to negatively affect endurance cycling power.

Lastly, I defend most vocally riders that I know, or when I have first hand information that they're clean (like Wiggins). Since I'm a US-based pro, that may be why I may seem like an 'anglophone'. These are the people I know.

I don't know a damn thing about Condator but I hate stupidity, which is why I'm quick to point out the B.S that surrounds the 'he must have a vo2 max of 112' or whatever...
You'd be the only one in that line.
 
Jun 18, 2009
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...on this forum, certainly...

As I've said before, Contador certainly has some baggage, but I have to wonder how much was of his own doing? Yeah, he rode for Saiz at Liberty, which is a huge black mark--but there have been clean riders on dirty teams.

Yes, the initials 'AC' are on bag--but that alone just isn't enough for me. Who knows what that could mean? While not a reliable source, Fuentes said he didn't work with him. Did he disavow working with anyone else? Alone, those initials don't mean much.

It doesn't thrill me that he first refused DNA test, but he later did--and there's STILL the possibility that the samples will be opened.

With all that said, fuzzy calculations about his climb up Verbier and the repeatedly stupid comments about him 'being a climber who can 'suddenly TT' aren't enough to convince me that he's doping. Given cycling's history I agree the burden now is on him to prove otherwise, which is obviously difficult, but I wouldn't be in shock either way.
 
Jun 18, 2009
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afpm90 said:
131313 I like the fact that you don't trust Mancebo and Sevilla because of Puerto, but you don't apply that criteria to Contador. It's ironic.
I have my reasons. I'm just going to leave it at that and bow out.
 
Jul 2, 2009
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131313 said:
Yes, the initials 'AC' are on bag--but that alone just isn't enough for me. .
Does such a bag exist though? It's been rumoured to on every cycling forum and blog around, but I can't remember anything very official definitively stating that it did.
 

Dr. Maserati

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Jun 19, 2009
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131313 said:
...on this forum, certainly...

As I've said before, Contador certainly has some baggage, but I have to wonder how much was of his own doing? Yeah, he rode for Saiz at Liberty, which is a huge black mark--but there have been clean riders on dirty teams.

Yes, the initials 'AC' are on bag--but that alone just isn't enough for me. Who knows what that could mean? While not a reliable source, Fuentes said he didn't work with him. Did he disavow working with anyone else? Alone, those initials don't mean much.

It doesn't thrill me that he first refused DNA test, but he later did--and there's STILL the possibility that the samples will be opened.

With all that said, fuzzy calculations about his climb up Verbier and the repeatedly stupid comments about him 'being a climber who can 'suddenly TT' aren't enough to convince me that he's doping. Given cycling's history I agree the burden now is on him to prove otherwise, which is obviously difficult, but I wouldn't be in shock either way.
Firstly - I welcome 131313's input to this forum.
I agree with the his observations on all the 'circumstantial' evidence mentioned in his post.

However my opinion is this puts Contador on the wrong side of the invisible line - I could be right, I could be wrong.
Also - I do now believe it is possible to attain a high result in the Tour and certainly win other races clean.

As for Mancebo and Sevilla - they were directly implicated in Puerto, Sevilla was even photographed coming out of Fuentes clinic!
 
Mar 13, 2009
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131313 said:
Still, you haven't answered the question (which is fine, as there's no legitimate way you can...loss of adipose tissue and even muscle mass (to a point, obviously) isn't going to negatively affect endurance cycling power.
just using one example, it is clear that Rogers time in the mountains to transform himself into a GT rider, had affected his power and chrono ability. But this never affected Mr Wiggins. Loses 11kgs (which is one of the estimates) and still holds his power. Come on...
 

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