I think Vaughters really wants to sign Contador:

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Aug 12, 2009
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blackcat said:
just using one example, it is clear that Rogers time in the mountains to transform himself into a GT rider, had affected his power and chrono ability. But this never affected Mr Wiggins. Loses 11kgs (which is one of the estimates) and still holds his power. Come on...
Has anyone here ever been to a gym? Ever touched weights and increased your cardio? You loose body fat and increase muscle mass. You can only increase your muscle mass incrementally. You can also loose it. Blackcat has more than enough reason to suspect that someone who has a very low bodyfat level (below 10% is low) that looses 5-6 kilos or at most 10-11 and originally weighed in the vacinity of 80 kilos, has in fact lost muscle mass. Do the math. Better yet point me to the related scientific paper so I can increase my own knowledge.

Next point. You're having yourself on if you think you can maintain your muscular power and stength with a diminished muscle mass. Go and ask any qualifed personal trainer and you'll get an answer ascerting as much. There will be decreases in power output, maybe not much, but loses none the less. In terms of speed and endurance, I'd argue it wouldn't matter much if you were a runner, but not if you are a cyclist or swimmer. You're endurnace will be there, but the speed component...yeah right. Good luck with that theory. Functional power (torque) is related to muscle fibre strenth and power. Blackcat is also correct regarding Rogers. Was a great ITT'er before 2005. Not anymore. He's now good at all discplines, but not very good at anything in particular.
 
Mar 13, 2009
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Galic Ho said:
Has anyone here ever been to a gym? Ever touched weights and increased your cardio? You loose body fat and increase muscle mass. You can only increase your muscle mass incrementally. You can also loose it. Blackcat has more than enough reason to suspect that someone who has a very low bodyfat level (below 10% is low) that looses 5-6 kilos or at most 10-11 and originally weighed in the vacinity of 80 kilos, has in fact lost muscle mass. Do the math. Better yet point me to the related scientific paper so I can increase my own knowledge.

Next point. You're having yourself on if you think you can maintain your muscular power and stength with a diminished muscle mass. Go and ask any qualifed personal trainer and you'll get an answer ascerting as much. There will be decreases in power output, maybe not much, but loses none the less. In terms of speed and endurance, I'd argue it wouldn't matter much if you were a runner, but not if you are a cyclist or swimmer. You're endurnace will be there, but the speed component...yeah right. Good luck with that theory. Functional power (torque) is related to muscle fibre strenth and power. Blackcat is also correct regarding Rogers. Was a great ITT'er before 2005. Not anymore. He's now good at all discplines, but not very good at anything in particular.
I was arguing it was a balance.

I do not dismiss at a point, like 131313 reasons with backing from the science, you can maintain your aerobic threshold power. But, it is a point, then you start to lose the power, because the strength came from some functional muscle on legs and buttocks.

My point was, we were spun a tale, he lost anywhere from 8-11 kgs, depending on the frame of reference. Then we were given evidence of his former threshold, when he was much heavier.

So, it is not like to like. It is comparing his power when on the track, when incidentally, he did not do jack $hit at Roubaix or in prologues, to now, his power when he is up to 11kgs lighter.

So, we are given the reasoning why he now goes uphill like a mountain goat justified by his momentous weight loss and justified by his former power threshold (but it is never mentioned what result on the power would be from the weight loss).

I for one do not think he lost that much weight, I think it was a talking point to obfuscate his performance.

How much did his hemoglobin rise in the Tour?
 
Aug 17, 2009
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doubt

Dr. Maserati said:
Firstly - I welcome 131313's input to this forum.
I agree with the his observations on all the 'circumstantial' evidence mentioned in his post.

However my opinion is this puts Contador on the wrong side of the invisible line - I could be right, I could be wrong.
Also - I do now believe it is possible to attain a high result in the Tour and certainly win other races clean.

As for Mancebo and Sevilla - they were directly implicated in Puerto, Sevilla was even photographed coming out of Fuentes clinic!
The whole problem is that everyone that does well in cycling is doubted. I love the sport and aggressively defend it to all the non cyclist who claim everyone is doping because they know nothing about it but media spin.

All arguments based on Contadors specific performance factors indicating doping like the Verbier climb and the last TT can be explained with published science and other riders found to have superior numbers who get less flack. Like Evans and Leipheimers time trial performances. There are some clearly knowledgable posters on this forum that present scientific studies that show a great deal of doubt around his doping.

The Puerto case is all circumstantial and information has not be obtained ethically so wouldn't believe anything that didn't make it into court. So on that basis is no reason to doubt him.

Yes he rode in a team that appeared to have a doping program and may have been doping pre Puerto. It seems unlikely that this has occurred since then

Wiggins is the same he made big improvements in his riding with very advanced training program where journalists that engage in doping smear campaigns like Kimmage are invited to witness. Why doubt that.

He lost weight and no power I have seen that a lot in weight training including my own. Loss of weight does normally mean losing power but working on improving power while restricting intake of calories allows muscles to regrow smaller and more powerful

The scientific analysis of LA performances post cancer seem impossible to explain. There doesn't mean doping on its own as science is often proven wrong but the behaviour that goes with his record looks very suspicious.

Not much doping in cycling publicity appeared pre 98 Festina Scandal. The sport needed someone clean and popular to enhance its reputation. LA emerged and created a huge amount of publicity made the tour de france boring to watch and entrenched everyones views riders and the sport is either clean or dirty. He did nothing to make the sport look credible at all. That stigma has stayed.

Since Puerto performances look very likely to be clean and lots of people are getting caught. When they are caught there performances look superhuman eg Landis, Schumacher, Sella so would suggest the difference they were achieving doping was way more than the rest of the field.

Since 2006 the racing in the tour has been close unpredictable and usually exciting (Astana superteam didn't help this year). There are still dopers of course but smearing everyone that is good is bad for the sport. If someone does well and looks credible like Wiggins better to believe in him and hope for a change in views instead of helping journalists try and discredit the sport
 
Mar 13, 2009
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131313 said:
I missed the part where Wiggins was involved with Puerto....or riding for a team with numerous dopers, both prior and current (how many people have been suspended while riding for Slipstream?).

No one on Wiggin's team has ever tried to sell me drugs, either.

As far as 'bigotry', that's laughable. Wasn't I just 'smearing' Rogers, according to you? Also, while I have no idea if Contador is doping or not, I'm always quickly (and have numerous times) defended the fact that this performance is not out of the realm of possibility, despite people's repeated attempt to twist the facts otherwise. I actually wouldn't be shocked if he were clean.

Still, you haven't answered the question (which is fine, as there's no legitimate way you can...loss of adipose tissue and even muscle mass (to a point, obviously) isn't going to negatively affect endurance cycling power.

Lastly, I defend most vocally riders that I know, or when I have first hand information that they're clean (like Wiggins). Since I'm a US-based pro, that may be why I may seem like an 'anglophone'. These are the people I know.

I don't know a damn thing about Condator but I hate stupidity, which is why I'm quick to point out the B.S that surrounds the 'he must have a vo2 max of 112' or whatever...
you must have missed the sarcasm.

But you missed the piece from Werner Franke.
 
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lagartija said:
i dont know...............but if JV is offering a contract i guess its safe to assume he does
I don't think JV is that stupid.
 
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lagartija said:
i dont know...............but if JV is offering a contract i guess its safe to assume he does

so contador is not the grand tour contender that dave brailsford stated he would not touch after seeing his profile, and then the next day asked if interestsed in AC stated a very catagoricall NO..

wonder who that is then?
 
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blackcat said:
but Brailsford wants Wiggins... a hypocrite I see. Cycling is a an assembly line
..and if JV gets Contador, Brailsford gets Wiggins.
 
Mar 13, 2009
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a source close to Contador (like, say his brother) says it is down to Quickstep, Caisse, and Garmin.

You can rule out Quickstep, they cannot defend and support in the high mountains. Barredo and Devolder notwithstanding.

So, it is between Garmin and Caisse. Wonder how Contador gets out of his Bruyneel contract. It should not be that difficult, the way they treated him at the Tour this year, either under the guise of Astana or Bruyneel's company, that should void his contract.

So, I say Garmin has the financial backing for Contador.

Lets see those blood numbers JV on Contador, lets match them up against other so called clean riders, Kohl, Boogy, Wiggins, Armstrong, see how they differ, and lets see if we can get the information off Werner Franke. Jeffersonian ;)
 
Jul 26, 2009
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Thoughtforfood said:
I don't think JV is that stupid.
Not sure what your saying here,
Are you saying JV didn't offer or consider offering berto a contract, I think its fairly common knowledge bikes were even shipped out to Spain, it would seem some sort of discussions have been held..........
So again not sure what your point is
 
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lagartija said:
Not sure what your saying here,
Are you saying JV didn't offer or consider offering berto a contract, I think its fairly common knowledge bikes were even shipped out to Spain, it would seem some sort of discussions have been held..........
So again not sure what your point is
No, what I meant was the JV offered a contract irrespective of Contador's blood profile. JV just doesn't care.
 
Jul 26, 2009
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Thoughtforfood said:
No, what I meant was the JV offered a contract irrespective of Contador's blood profile. JV just doesn't care.
so then what your saying is JV is aware of berto's implicit doping......and is categorically looking the other way........this is your position.......

if thats what you believe then i really dont know what to say....except sorry
 

Dr. Maserati

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Jun 19, 2009
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lagartija said:
so then what your saying is JV is aware of berto's implicit doping......and is categorically looking the other way........this is your position.......

if thats what you believe then i really dont know what to say....except sorry
Firstly - I have always stated my opinion that AC will not be with GArmin next year. JV said on this forum that he had talks with AC "over a meal".
My understanding on that was it was a casual sounding out of each others position.
Also JV said here that he had not seen AC's UCI blood profile.

But you mentioned that it was "fairly common knowledge" that bikes had been shipped to Spain? Can you clarify that please as I have checkde on other sites and have been unable to find anything.
As that would suggest that discussions/negotiations have advanced considerably since JV last spoke here.
 
Jul 26, 2009
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Dr. Maserati said:
Firstly - I have always stated my opinion that AC will not be with GArmin next year. JV said on this forum that he had talks with AC "over a meal".
My understanding on that was it was a casual sounding out of each others position.
Also JV said here that he had not seen AC's UCI blood profile.

But you mentioned that it was "fairly common knowledge" that bikes had been shipped to Spain? Can you clarify that please as I have checkde on other sites and have been unable to find anything.
As that would suggest that discussions/negotiations have advanced considerably since JV last spoke here.
hola.......i was not commenting on what team berto would eventually ride for , simply that JV had an interest in signing him , but i do apologize for the common knowledge comment , that info was not site related , i did think when posting that many were aware of the bike incident.....as to how far along any team might be in discussions with the contadors would be pure speculation
 

Dr. Maserati

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Jun 19, 2009
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lagartija said:
hola.......i was not commenting on what team berto would eventually ride for , simply that JV had an interest in signing him , but i do apologize for the common knowledge comment , that info was not site related , i did think when posting that many were aware of the bike incident.....as to how far along any team might be in discussions with the contadors would be pure speculation
Cool - thanks!

I still expect AC to end up at Caisse if he can get out of his contract with Astana. I actually expected it all to be done by now.
 
Jul 25, 2009
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Thoughtforfood said:
No, what I meant was the JV offered a contract irrespective of Contador's blood profile. JV just doesn't care.
But couldn't a contract proposal simply be made conditional on blood profile? Then negotiation can start but the offer can be pulled later if the blood results don't look good.
 
Mar 13, 2009
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Dr. Maserati said:
Firstly - I have always stated my opinion that AC will not be with GArmin next year. JV said on this forum that he had talks with AC "over a meal".
My understanding on that was it was a casual sounding out of each others position.
Also JV said here that he had not seen AC's UCI blood profile.

But you mentioned that it was "fairly common knowledge" that bikes had been shipped to Spain? Can you clarify that please as I have checkde on other sites and have been unable to find anything.
As that would suggest that discussions/negotiations have advanced considerably since JV last spoke here.
that was before the Tour, when Astana were up in the air, and Armstrong and Bruyneel were gonna try and stiff Berto
 

Dr. Maserati

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blackcat said:
that was before the Tour, when Astana were up in the air, and Armstrong and Bruyneel were gonna try and stiff Berto
Ok - but what has changed?

I have seen one report - a Contador blog - that links AC with Caisse, Garmin and QS. It appears every other source is quoting that one article. There are no names or anything else linked to it.

In JV's interview with the Boulder Reporter JV mentions AC and effectively he will not be joining Garmin Slipstream.
 
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lagartija said:
so then what your saying is JV is aware of berto's implicit doping......and is categorically looking the other way........this is your position.......

if thats what you believe then i really dont know what to say....except sorry
Contador made Lance Armstrong look like a pretender in the Tour de France, and The Uniballer's blood profile is the picture of what 2 refill transfusions look like, and you think Contador's profile would look cleaner than that......did you watch the final TT......this is your position...

if thats what you believe then i really dont know what to say...except sorry.
 
Aug 13, 2009
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Dr. Maserati said:
Firstly - I have always stated my opinion that AC will not be with GArmin next year. JV said on this forum that he had talks with AC "over a meal".
My understanding on that was it was a casual sounding out of each others position.
Also JV said here that he had not seen AC's UCI blood profile.

But you mentioned that it was "fairly common knowledge" that bikes had been shipped to Spain? Can you clarify that please as I have checkde on other sites and have been unable to find anything.
As that would suggest that discussions/negotiations have advanced considerably since JV last spoke here.
JV is putting up a little smoke screen.
 
Aug 17, 2009
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Comparison to Armstrong

Thoughtforfood said:
Contador made Lance Armstrong look like a pretender in the Tour de France, and The Uniballer's blood profile is the picture of what 2 refill transfusions look like, and you think Contador's profile would look cleaner than that......did you watch the final TT......this is your position...

if thats what you believe then i really dont know what to say...except sorry.
Comparison to LA is irrelevant he is nearly 40 years old and has been off the bike for 3 years. If he blood dopes to get back in the sport that is about him and what he needs to do to keep up. His bounce back was surprisingly slower than the 99 comeback which is interesting though.

Without seeing the Contador blood profile there is no evidence of blood doping. I have commented before about the TT performance and it was not as great as Levi Leipheimer and Cadel Evans in 07 who are 1 and 2 Kg heavier. No-one seems to suspect them of anything.
Many proffessional riders and some amateurs even both now and historically have been capable of doing 48:30 for a 25 mile TT. I am sure it is possible for Contador

JV may still be interested because his blood profile does look normal enough. Perhaps if he signs him he will talk Contador into releasing it like with Wiggins.

Because of ridiculous defamation riders have to continually provide definitive proof they are clean instead of defend guilt. This is a ridiculous scenario that cannot be achieved
 
Mar 13, 2009
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cyclingmad said:
Comparison to LA is irrelevant he is nearly 40 years old and has been off the bike for 3 years. If he blood dopes to get back in the sport that is about him and what he needs to do to keep up. His bounce back was surprisingly slower than the 99 comeback which is interesting though.

Without seeing the Contador blood profile there is no evidence of blood doping. I have commented before about the TT performance and it was not as great as Levi Leipheimer and Cadel Evans in 07 who are 1 and 2 Kg heavier. No-one seems to suspect them of anything.
Many proffessional riders and some amateurs even both now and historically have been capable of doing 48:30 for a 25 mile TT. I am sure it is possible for Contador

JV may still be interested because his blood profile does look normal enough. Perhaps if he signs him he will talk Contador into releasing it like with Wiggins.

Because of ridiculous defamation riders have to continually provide definitive proof they are clean instead of defend guilt. This is a ridiculous scenario that cannot be achieved
Evans second tt has always been inferior to his first tt at the Tour.

that may tell you something. The guys who win the final tt, well, anyone with a modicum of insight about the sport, knows how that is achieved.
 

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