I think Vaughters really wants to sign Contador:

[Race Radio]

But when AC changed his mind and offered up a DNA sample, why wasn't it tested?

He never offered up a sample.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

He never offered up a sample.

Correct -Contador has not offered to have his DNA checked.

After his Tour win in 2007 he said that he would submit his blood for a DNA analysis if "requested to do so by the proper authorities". Contador said this after the Puerto investigation was shelved.

However in December 2006 the investigating Judge - Serrano - questioned Contador. At the time he was asked if he would like to submit a DNA test - Contador declined this test.

The Spanish judiciary said last year that any rider wishing to have their DNA sampled against the Puerto blood bags to show their innocence could do so.

 

[scribe]

The Spanish judiciary said last year that any rider wishing to have their DNA sampled against the Puerto blood bags to show their innocence could do so.

This would have been a great opportunity for Lance to prove he didn't dope.

 

[Race Radio]

This would have been a great opportunity for Lance to prove he didn't dope.

All this would prove is that he did not use Fuentes......we already know the answer to that. You don't pay Dr. Ferrari for interval training.

 

[scribe]

I speak 12 different dialects of sarcasm, fluently.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

I speak 12 different dialects of sarcasm, fluently.

Lol.... only 12? Actually I was going to respond to your 'Lance' post as well.... but then thought "ya, he is extacting the urine"....

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Didn't JV say he changed his mind and did do this?

No....JV has only spoken to AC - it appeared to have been very early negotiations, more a sounding out of each others positions.

JV's quotes on this forum:
"I've never seen Contador's blood values. Of course I need to see these with any rider who wants to race for Garmin-Slipstream. I am Jeffersonian in my approach to this. I negotiate in good faith, assuming the values will be good. If when revealed they are not suitable for our team, then I end the final part of negotiation. This applies to any rider."

"I don't have blood records, I don't have DNA..."

Or were you talking about JB?

 

[Hugh Januss]

Didn't JV say he changed his mind and did do this?

As Dr. M pointed out about 3 posts up. He offered "if requested by the proper authorities" after the spanish court had ruled that the evidence could not be used in any other case until they said so.

 

[usedtobefast]

As Dr. M pointed out about 3 posts up. He offered "if requested by the proper authorities" after the spanish court had ruled that the evidence could not be used in any other case until they said so.

he (ac) would be a fool to submit to any dna test, given the environment.
a no win situation, so don't do it.

 

[Digger]

Franke was waiving documents on live TV saying he had proof Contador doped. This was in 2007.
Can you tell me where these "proofs" are, and why Franke has been silent since -07?

Contador was the ONLY rider Fuentes himself said he hadn't worked with, where does that leave Davis, Paulinho, LL Sanchez etc.?

Valverde is most likely innocent to a lot of things, but CONI got him wiht his blood bag with EPO.
That the UCI is still not responding to a ban that came in May/June is mind
boggling.

Franke got a copy of these documents. Obviously he had his sources. There is no will to bring charges against most of these Spanish riders, as well as tennis players footballers etc. That is very clearly a political pressure issue.
So we should take Fuentes' word as the reason why AC is innocent.

In a court case, Fuentes comes in and says, 'I didn't work with AC'. The judge says right, 'stop the case, mystery solved.' Disregard all the other evidence, the initial refusal to submit DNA.

You say Valverde is innocent of alot of things. What exactly?

 

[Race Radio]

I don't know the details

You should have this as your signature as it describes the content of most of your posts.

 

[Mongol_Waaijer]

You don't beat Armstrong by that much if you're not doping.

This is one of your more ridiculous comments.

You think that a 20 something with 3 convincing recent GT wins under his belt can only beat a "clean" (ha ha) 37 year old who has been out of the sport for 3 years - by doping?

They're both on the same team - maybe the "medical program" is different before the TdF, but during the race both of them would have been jacking up their crits with fresh blood while the UCI "vampires" had coffee over the road.

 

[TRDean]

I'm just asking the question about it and trying to fit together the true story of the DNA thing that people go on about. I don't know the details of it which is why I was asking.

It wouldn't surprise me at all if Contador was caught up in that and is still doping now.

You don't beat Armstrong by that much if you're not doping.

Of all the stupid pud pounding things to say...why don't we just ban you!!! Dingleberry!!

 

[Anonymous]

This is one of your more ridiculous comments.
You think that a 20 something with 3 convincing recent GT wins under his belt can only beat a "clean" (ha ha) 37 year old who has been out of the sport for 3 years - by doping?

They're both on the same team - maybe the "medical program" is different before the TdF, but during the race both of them would have been jacking up their crits with fresh blood while the UCI "vampires" had coffee over the road.

Yeah... BPC's body of work on this forum is just rabid.

 

[Anonymous]

I'm just asking the question about it and trying to fit together the true story of the DNA thing that people go on about. I don't know the details of it which is why I was asking.

It wouldn't surprise me at all if Contador was caught up in that and is still doping now.

You don't beat Armstrong by that much if you're not doping.

I am starting to admire your work. You are actually pretty good. Frigo, is that you?

 

[cyclingmad]

Franke got a copy of these documents. Obviously he had his sources. There is no will to bring charges against most of these Spanish riders, as well as tennis players footballers etc. That is very clearly a political pressure issue.
So we should take Fuentes' word as the reason why AC is innocent.

In a court case, Fuentes comes in and says, 'I didn't work with AC'. The judge says right, 'stop the case, mystery solved.' Disregard all the other evidence, the initial refusal to submit DNA.

I think if you check references Fuentes didn't say "I didn't work with Contador" in court but he did say this on Spanish Radio. This is significant because you can say what you like on radio it is forgotten in time by most. If you say it in court and are proved to be lying you are in contempt of court. I don't believe he would have said this in court because there was nothing to gain for him in doing so and risks a jail sentence for being in contempt of court.

The initial investigation was very rushed to try and identify riders investigated in advance of the 2006 tour. Lots of contradicting information was presented in the media along with misinterpretation. Teams were pressured into withdrawing named riders regardless of what was presented. Contadors name was referenced in a phone conversation about race results and a training schedule for the full Liberty Seguros team. Without the context of the document it is difficult to draw a conclusion. He was cleared in the investigation and the UCI admitted a mistake was made in naming Contador and cleared him.

I am interested in what the Werner Franke evidence is if anyone knows this. **** Pound also had an interest in pursuing a case against Contador but am unsure at what point this ended

You say Valverde is innocent of alot of things. What exactly?

It is interesting that Spanish, French and Italians treat their own riders differently from the others both in testing and entry into their respective major tours. Valverde just never seems to be the same rider since Operacion Puerto

 

[Digger]

It is interesting that Spanish, French and Italians treat their own riders differently from the others both in testing and entry into their respective major tours. Valverde just never seems to be the same rider since Operacion Puerto

You interspersed my quote with alot of your own views, so now people are not sure who said what. Please don't do this again.

Originally Posted by Digger
Franke got a copy of these documents. Obviously he had his sources. There is no will to bring charges against most of these Spanish riders, as well as tennis players footballers etc. That is very clearly a political pressure issue.
So we should take Fuentes' word as the reason why AC is innocent.

In a court case, Fuentes comes in and says, 'I didn't work with AC'. The judge says right, 'stop the case, mystery solved.' Disregard all the other evidence, the initial refusal to submit DNA.

I think if you check references Fuentes didn't say "I didn't work with Contador" in court but he did say this on Spanish Radio. This is significant because you can say what you like on radio it is forgotten in time by most. If you say it in court and are proved to be lying you are in contempt of court. I don't believe he would have said this in court because there was nothing to gain for him in doing so and risks a jail sentence for being in contempt of court.

The initial investigation was very rushed to try and identify riders investigated in advance of the 2006 tour. Lots of contradicting information was presented in the media along with misinterpretation. Teams were pressured into withdrawing named riders regardless of what was presented. Contadors name was referenced in a phone conversation about race results and a training schedule for the full Liberty Seguros team. Without the context of the document it is difficult to draw a conclusion. He was cleared in the investigation and the UCI admitted a mistake was made in naming Contador and cleared him.

I am interested in what the Werner Franke evidence is if anyone knows this. **** Pound also had an interest in pursuing a case against Contador but am unsure at what point this ended

You say Valverde is innocent of alot of things. What exactly?"


All the part in bold, I did not type.

Wener Franke:

The Associated Press
Published: July 31, 2007
BERLIN: German authorities said Tuesday they have received documents from
doping expert Werner Franke which he claims show Tour de France winner
Alberto Contador was involved in doping.

Franke said he has documents from last year's Operation Puerto doping
investigation in Spain which show that Contador, a Spaniard who won the
doping-marred Tour on Sunday, had taken HMG-Lepori as a testosterone booster
and an asthma product called TGN.

"We can confirm we have received the documents, and they will be
incorporated into procedures of the district attorney's office," Christian
Brockert, spokesman for Germany's Federal Criminal Police Office, told The
Associated Press.

 

[blackcat]

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/21/sports/cycling/21iht-BIKE.html?hpw

Sam Abt has Garmin biting.

TFF, I reckon you are right. JV is full of $hit. I take it back, dont come on here, and $hit with us, and treat the fans who support the sport like fricken idiots.

Lim? Steffen? We can't hear you? Doug Ellis? You want to underwrite a dope fuelled sport with your largesse. Screw you too.

Ok, sign Contador. But dont spin us. Compete on an even playing field, do what is necessary. But why lie? Implicit in the spin, is having a clean sport is important, but you are doing the opposite.

This sums it up http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fWEXcTo4W7A irony and satire is most revealing.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/21/sports/cycling/21iht-BIKE.html?hpw

Sam Abt has Garmin biting.

TFF, I reckon you are right. JV is full of $hit. I take it back, dont come on here, and $hit with us, and treat the fans who support the sport like fricken idiots.

Lim? Steffen? We can't hear you? Doug Ellis? You want to underwrite a dope fuelled sport with your largesse. Screw you too.

Ok, sign Contador. But dont spin us. Compete on an even playing field, do what is necessary. But why lie? Implicit in the spin, is having a clean sport is important, but you are doing the opposite.

This sums it up http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fWEXcTo4W7A irony and satire is most revealing.

I don't agree with your post...yet!
Abt has a few suitors for Contador including the surprise of QS - I still think it will be Caisse though.

Yes - we know JV & Garmin are interested - he has confirmed that on this thread. Perhaps the negotiations have escalated, perhaps they have floundered - September 1st will reveal a lot.

I actually want JV to keep posting - I would rather an opportunity to engage with anyone than rely on a speculative piece - as Sam's piece is - press releases or shagging twitter for that matter.
I think the forum members here can discern between honesty and BS.

I am not an apologist for JV - I am more than a little disappointed that JV did not respond to my direct question of his comments saying that the Bio-Passport should not be criticized.
Perhaps he believes it is an unfair question - maybe others here agree of disagree? But I believe I gave a balanced opportunity to reply to a system that he publicly defended.

When we read something from someone - often the most interesting part is not what is said, but what is omitted.

 

[Mellow Velo]

+1 Dr M.
Otherwise you employ the same sort of gagging censorship the Lance apologists dream of imposing.
I also agree that often the most telling points of a debate can be it's omissions.
That is frequently the case, when facts, supporting a supposition/theory, are given and opposing argument dries up, or resorts to name calling.

 

[blackcat]

by all means, post. Keep on posting. Gives a forum for us to criticise.

But why are we measuring JV to Armstrong's standards and the twitter press releases. Surely we should hold JV to a standard independent of Armstrong benchmarking. It is too easy, to say, "Oh, JV, gets a pass, look at his MO v Armstrong".

No, that is flawed logic, we want a higher standard altogether, one the JV proposes to aspire to. Why should we accept less, just because it is not Armstrong.

Come on guys. Rigorous standards, hold him to account. They have a big ambition, lets remind them of the conflicts in action.

 

[Bala Verde]

What I read the other day was that Garmin had to sort out the finances, because they had some problems coming up with a balanced budget. Apparently Wiggins' contract extension - and although he has lost quite some weight - was a little heavy on the budget. Even though they had some kind of a verbal agreement with Summy before the TdF, they needed to find additional money to add him to the roster.

Read all about it here

Having signed Kessiakoff as well, I doubt they have the have any money left to sign Contador. Unless of course Contador's already been budgeted in and which makes him the main cause behind the financial difficulties mentioned above...

 

[Anonymous]

What I read the other day was that Garmin had to sort out the finances, because they had some problems coming up with a balanced budget. Apparently Wiggins' contract extension - and although he has lost quite some weight - was a little heavy on the budget. Even though they had some kind of a verbal agreement with Summy before the TdF, they needed to find additional money to add him to the roster.

Read all about it here

Having signed Kessiakoff as well, I doubt they have the have any money left to sign Contador. Unless of course Contador's already been budgeted in and which makes him the main cause behind the financial difficulties mentioned above...

Somewhere I read that he was offered $4 million from Garmin. I will try to find the source.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

by all means, post. Keep on posting. Gives a forum for us to criticise.

But why are we measuring JV to Armstrong's standards and the twitter press releases. Surely we should hold JV to a standard independent of Armstrong benchmarking. It is too easy, to say, "Oh, JV, gets a pass, look at his MO v Armstrong".

No, that is flawed logic, we want a higher standard altogether, one the JV proposes to aspire to. Why should we accept less, just because it is not Armstrong.

Come on guys. Rigorous standards, hold him to account. They have a big ambition, lets remind them of the conflicts in action.

So why were you encouraging JV not to post?
I was not holding JV to LA's standard - but if JV does not post then we are relying on CN & newspaper articles for information - which in most incidences are rehashed press releases - thats false logic.

As for rigorous standards - have Garmin signed AC??
JV has said they talked - but he would not be in a position to move further until they had seen Ac's UCI blood values. So- they talked, nothing more- in fact it would have been damning if JV said they didn't talk.

As I said before I find the fact that JV defended the Bio-Passport far more troubling than JV having an informal chat with Contador over a meal.

 

[Dude17]

I am not an apologist for JV - I am more than a little disappointed that JV did not respond to my direct question of his comments saying that the Bio-Passport should not be criticized.
Perhaps he believes it is an unfair question - maybe others here agree of disagree? But I believe I gave a balanced opportunity to reply to a system that he publicly defended.

When we read something from someone - often the most interesting part is not what is said, but what is omitted.

What does JV gain from responding to your direct question? He appeases a few cycling fans. Balance that against: He would also now be "on record" and all the problems that that can bring him. Maybe he feels that the Bio-Passport is a piece of trash and would rather carry the party line of "should not be critisized" than cause potential problems for himself and his team.

You can learn a lot from what is omitted, but it isn't always what you think.