If there was one clean rider...

[hrotha]

Re: Re:

What I do not agree with is that, to you, under such circumstances, everyone is corrupt. I don't think so. It's conformism. You said the corporation metaphor is way off mark. Fair enough. What about the 30's and 40's Germany ? The pressure was at the highest, because it was join the nazis or die. And yet, there are people who didn't. They were isolated, suffered a great deal but they were there.

While I don't necessarily agree with Bennoti, surely in this analogy those who actively opposed the Nazis within Germany are those who quit cycling rather than dope?

 

[@NL_LeMondFans]

Re: Re:

What I do not agree with is that, to you, under such circumstances, everyone is corrupt. I don't think so. It's conformism. You said the corporation metaphor is way off mark. Fair enough. What about the 30's and 40's Germany ? The pressure was at the highest, because it was join the nazis or die. And yet, there are people who didn't. They were isolated, suffered a great deal but they were there.

While I don't necessarily agree with Bennoti, surely in this analogy those who actively opposed the Nazis within Germany are those who quit cycling rather than dope?

No, because they didn't leave Germany.

In this analogy (which is very questionable, of course, I'm not saying all dopers are nazis) german = pro cyclist, nazi = doper.

 

[Benotti69]

When we start comparing pro cycling with Nazi Germany the discussion is over...............the sport is bad, but not comparable.

 

[@NL_LeMondFans]

Re:

When we start comparing pro cycling with Nazi Germany the discussion is over...............the sport is bad, but not comparable.

We're comparing humans reactions in a vastly corrupt environment, since you believe they will all act accordingly or "leave".

 

[@NL_LeMondFans]

Re:

The superiority of the human spirit Vs the sheep.

My big problem with your way of thinking is that it is the "everyone did it" routine. I can't stand it. Free will, anyone ?


Nice sentiment
Unfortunately that human spirit not to dope means those who don't conform have only one choice - to not ride pro.
Going back to an earlier post Graham Obree when he was offered a pro contract questioned why 20% of his salary was to be held by the team and when he was told it was for his "medicine" he took the moral stance and never signed the contract.

Sorry but there really is only a set of rules.
Join the team,
do what we do, (mainly this is also about protection - no-one is comfortable having one clean rider around as it is that rider who will turn them all in if there is a problem)
win so we all make money and have a team to race for next year,
keep the omerta intact.

If you think it has run in any other way then I'm afraid you are sadly misled.

I might. I reckon it would take guts and be incredibly hard. But I believe it was possible, and you can't prove me wrong, as I cannot prove I'm right, sadly.

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Re:

When we start comparing pro cycling with Nazi Germany the discussion is over...............the sport is bad, but not comparable.

We're comparing humans reactions in a vastly corrupt environment, since you believe they will all act accordingly or "leave".

People in Nazi Germany were exterminated for their beliefs. Not sure many cyclists were for trying to ride clean....

Clean riders will not flourish or survive in a doping culture environment. Simple. It is a team sport. Others will not accept someone taking a higher moral ground than them. Bassons is an example. Kimmage is another who knew that competing against dopers meant he had no chance. Kimmage also knew the benefit doping gave, having doped for a few post TdF crits.

 

[@NL_LeMondFans]

Re: Re:

When we start comparing pro cycling with Nazi Germany the discussion is over...............the sport is bad, but not comparable.

We're comparing humans reactions in a vastly corrupt environment, since you believe they will all act accordingly or "leave".

People in Nazi Germany were exterminated for their beliefs. Not sure many cyclists were for trying to ride clean....

Clean riders will not flourish or survive in a doping culture environment. Simple. It is a team sport. Others will not accept someone taking a higher moral ground than them. Bassons is an example. Kimmage is another who knew that competing against dopers meant he had no chance. Kimmage also knew the benefit doping gave, having doped for a few post TdF crits.

That's the trick, in order to survive, clean riders kept their mouths shut, hence you don't know about them. The fact that you don't know them doesn't mean they don't exist.

One of the main differences between Kimmage and the early 00's is that in the early 00's you could have a very good salary without winning any race. When you get 25 000€ a month, it becomes more interesting to keep your mouth shut and do your thing rather than "leave" because there's little chance you'll be paid as much for another job. When Kimmage rode, a domestique was not paid very well.

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Re:

When we start comparing pro cycling with Nazi Germany the discussion is over...............the sport is bad, but not comparable.

We're comparing humans reactions in a vastly corrupt environment, since you believe they will all act accordingly or "leave".

People in Nazi Germany were exterminated for their beliefs. Not sure many cyclists were for trying to ride clean....

Clean riders will not flourish or survive in a doping culture environment. Simple. It is a team sport. Others will not accept someone taking a higher moral ground than them. Bassons is an example. Kimmage is another who knew that competing against dopers meant he had no chance. Kimmage also knew the benefit doping gave, having doped for a few post TdF crits.

That's the trick, in order to survive, clean riders kept their mouths shut, hence you don't know about them. The fact that you don't know them doesn't mean they don't exist.

One of the main differences between Kimmage and the early 00's is that in the early 00's you could have a very good salary without winning any race. When you get 25 000€ a month, it becomes more interesting to keep your mouth shut and do your thing rather than "leave" because there's little chance you'll be paid as much for another job. When Kimmage rode, a domestique was not paid very well.

I don't think teams want clean riders for a start. Why get a clean rider that straight away puts everyone on guard? Why get a clean rider who believes doping is wrong when the rest of the team believe it is part of the sport? Why hire a clean rider who cant do much compared to a rider who responds well to PEDs and might get you a A GT stage or a classic or even a monument? Why have someone who is different from the team because he is clean and the rest resent it? Not going to happen.

As for not hearing about riders who did not dope, we did. Scott Mercier, Tilford, Obree, Bassons all speak about not doping. To swim against the tide of doping takes a strength of will and conviction, that rider is not a mouse who will never squeak, that rider is someone not afraid and therefore will not ride in silence to earn 100grand a year. I cannot imagine there is a rider in the pro peloton who is clean while all around everyone is performing above their natural abilities and this pro has got to bust his gut everyday without the PEDs while most of the world thinks they are doping too. Dont think so. Dont think that mentality exists in pro sport. You either speak out for your own integrity or you crawl away from the sport with your tail between your legs.

 

[@NL_LeMondFans]

Re: Re:

Clean riders will not flourish or survive in a doping culture environment. Simple. It is a team sport. Others will not accept someone taking a higher moral ground than them. Bassons is an example. Kimmage is another who knew that competing against dopers meant he had no chance. Kimmage also knew the benefit doping gave, having doped for a few post TdF crits.

I don't think teams want clean riders for a start. Why get a clean rider that straight away puts everyone on guard? Why get a clean rider who believes doping is wrong when the rest of the team believe it is part of the sport? Why hire a clean rider who cant do much compared to a rider who responds well to PEDs and might get you a A GT stage or a classic or even a monument? Why have someone who is different from the team because he is clean and the rest resent it? Not going to happen.

A clean rider will potentially progress more under PEDs, which would make him interesting for the team. There are cases of amateurs that had taken so much dope to make it into the pro peloton that they were useless afterwards. Teams also have to build a full range of different type riders. Not everyone is on the team for the win, far from that.

As for not hearing about riders who did not dope, we did. Scott Mercier, Tilford, Obree, Bassons all speak about not doping. To swim against the tide of doping takes a strength of will and conviction, that rider is not a mouse who will never squeak, that rider is someone not afraid and therefore will not ride in silence to earn 100grand a year. I cannot imagine there is a rider in the pro peloton who is clean while all around everyone is performing above their natural abilities and this pro has got to bust his gut everyday without the PEDs while most of the world thinks they are doping too. Dont think so. Dont think that mentality exists in pro sport. You either speak out for your own integrity or you crawl away from the sport with your tail between your legs.

Again, it's not because you don't see them or can't imagine them that they do not exist. Let's just see the reactions here & there : everytime a pro rider or an ex-pro rider opens his mouth about dopers, he is called a hypocrite by most people. Because they think he doped too. Hence they keep quiet. Why bother ? See Aru : he'll now sue you for putting his performances in doubt. They're quiet all right. 100 grand a year isn't much for you ? Most people I know don't make half of it.

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Re:

Clean riders will not flourish or survive in a doping culture environment. Simple. It is a team sport. Others will not accept someone taking a higher moral ground than them. Bassons is an example. Kimmage is another who knew that competing against dopers meant he had no chance. Kimmage also knew the benefit doping gave, having doped for a few post TdF crits.

I don't think teams want clean riders for a start. Why get a clean rider that straight away puts everyone on guard? Why get a clean rider who believes doping is wrong when the rest of the team believe it is part of the sport? Why hire a clean rider who cant do much compared to a rider who responds well to PEDs and might get you a A GT stage or a classic or even a monument? Why have someone who is different from the team because he is clean and the rest resent it? Not going to happen.

A clean rider will potentially progress more under PEDs, which would make him interesting for the team. There are cases of amateurs that had taken so much dope to make it into the pro peloton that they were useless afterwards. Teams also have to build a full range of different type riders. Not everyone is on the team for the win, far from that.

As for not hearing about riders who did not dope, we did. Scott Mercier, Tilford, Obree, Bassons all speak about not doping. To swim against the tide of doping takes a strength of will and conviction, that rider is not a mouse who will never squeak, that rider is someone not afraid and therefore will not ride in silence to earn 100grand a year. I cannot imagine there is a rider in the pro peloton who is clean while all around everyone is performing above their natural abilities and this pro has got to bust his gut everyday without the PEDs while most of the world thinks they are doping too. Dont think so. Dont think that mentality exists in pro sport. You either speak out for your own integrity or you crawl away from the sport with your tail between your legs.

Again, it's not because you don't see them or can't imagine them that they do not exist. Let's just see the reactions here & there : everytime a pro rider or an ex-pro rider opens his mouth about dopers, he is called a hypocrite by most people. Because they think he doped too. Hence they keep quiet. Why bother ? See Aru : he'll now sue you for putting his performances in doubt. They're quiet all right. 100 grand a year isn't much for you ? Most people I know don't make half of it.

If a clean rider has gotten to WT without dope, he will at least know what lies in store as stories will have filtered back and he no doubt will have been offered PEDs by his own federations doctors and coaches. But the difference between WT and everything below it is big. Again he is entering an environment where doping is the norm. He will stick out in his team as 'Mr Clean' and those that dope will not welcome that, neither will masseurs, mechanics, chefs etc some who will have been former riders and doped and also who all benefit from the win money at the end of the season. Everyone on the team is for the win or else they wouldn't be there. Not everyone on the team will win, but fetching bidons, rain capes etc is for the win.

I dont recall anyone calling Mercier, Bassons or Obree hypocrites. Aru suing Henderson, well let us see how far that goes before we give judgement. I dont think Henderson is clean, but he might have felt that Astana were taking the piss. They all dope but they dont want anymore Ricco, Pantani, Riis, Armstrong scenarios. But there is a vibe from Anglophones that they are less dopers than the others. Just read the tone of the 'Secret Pro' and the BS he spouts. All positive towards anglophones but damning against non anglophones.

100Grand is not much when you will only get it for 2 years and have no qualifications at the end of it. Again there lies the problem for a rider. How does he get a contract? He needs to show a team he can 'perform'. How can he perform when the others are already ahead with their preparation? How does he get another 2 year 100grand a year contract when so many are 'performing'. 200grand for 2 years is not much when you are finished as a pro at 25 and spent 10 years dedicated to riding a bike.

I think most top amateurs were aware that they will do what it takes, PEDs and all. Those that wont will not get to WT level.

There are only 2 teams that talk about being clean, Garmin and Sky and this year apart from Froome talking about testing on Tenerife the anti doping silence this year from them has been deafening.

Also i think that a rider who rode clean has plenty opportunity via the internet to anonymously give a voice to his cleanliness and talk about what he is up against in pro cycling. Again I can not imagine a rider who raced from junior to WT clean accepting, ok, all these guys are cheating but i wont do it and accept that even though i am better than lots of them they will perform better than me due to PEDs. That eats away at the psyche and a rider will be faced with a choice, dope or leave.

 

[@NL_LeMondFans]

Re: Re:

If a clean rider has gotten to WT without dope, he will at least know what lies in store as stories will have filtered back and he no doubt will have been offered PEDs by his own federations doctors and coaches. But the difference between WT and everything below it is big. Again he is entering an environment where doping is the norm. He will stick out in his team as 'Mr Clean' and those that dope will not welcome that, neither will masseurs, mechanics, chefs etc some who will have been former riders and doped and also who all benefit from the win money at the end of the season. Everyone on the team is for the win or else they wouldn't be there. Not everyone on the team will win, but fetching bidons, rain capes etc is for the win.

Ok, everyone within a pro cycling team is an evil calculating person. Got it.

I dont recall anyone calling Mercier, Bassons or Obree hypocrites. Aru suing Henderson, well let us see how far that goes before we give judgement. I dont think Henderson is clean, but he might have felt that Astana were taking the piss. They all dope but they dont want anymore Ricco, Pantani, Riis, Armstrong scenarios. But there is a vibe from Anglophones that they are less dopers than the others. Just read the tone of the 'Secret Pro' and the BS he spouts. All positive towards anglophones but damning against non anglophones.

So it's fair to dope but not too obviously, is that it ? But wait, what about if I actually want to win ? Shouldn't I dope like, to the highest level ? Where is the limit ? For a peloton full of evil characters, it might be tricky.

100Grand is not much when you will only get it for 2 years and have no qualifications at the end of it. Again there lies the problem for a rider. How does he get a contract? He needs to show a team he can 'perform'. How can he perform when the others are already ahead with their preparation? How does he get another 2 year 100grand a year contract when so many are 'performing'. 200grand for 2 years is not much when you are finished as a pro at 25 and spent 10 years dedicated to riding a bike.

100 grand with no qualification is better than nothing with no qualification. And getting 100 grand with qualification ain't easy, either !

I think most top amateurs were aware that they will do what it takes, PEDs and all. Those that wont will not get to WT level.

No, they're aware people do. They're aware they have to reach a level. Wether they do it clean or not is another matter. You know, end/means...

There are only 2 teams that talk about being clean, Garmin and Sky and this year apart from Froome talking about testing on Tenerife the anti doping silence this year from them has been deafening.

Come on, every team talks about being clean. Heard about MPCC and stuff like that ? And surely every sponsor does too. Doping isn't too good a PR strategy. And where does the money comes from ? Yeah, sponsors.

Also i think that a rider who rode clean has plenty opportunity via the internet to anonymously give a voice to his cleanliness and talk about what he is up against in pro cycling. Again I can not imagine a rider who raced from junior to WT clean accepting, ok, all these guys are cheating but i wont do it and accept that even though i am better than lots of them they will perform better than me due to PEDs. That eats away at the psyche and a rider will be faced with a choice, dope or leave.

Maybe you couldn't, and maybe I couldn't. It doesn't mean nobody can.

 

[@NL_LeMondFans]

Re: Re:

Sandy Casar interview when he announced he was quitting at 34, after a 14 years career, in 2013:

http://www.leparisien.fr/sports/autres/video-cyclisme-je-prefere-arreter-la-annonce-sandy-casar-06-09-2013-3112609.php#xtref=http%3A%2F%2Factualites.leparisien.fr%2Fsandy%2Bcasar.html

You are known as a clean rider. Do you have any regrets regarding those years of widespread doping ?

No, because I always did my best, I always fought. But you can never know what could have happened. It's true that's also part of my decision : I was a little fed up with all this.

What do you see when you look at your results and rankings ?

My biggest disappointment might be my 6th place at the 2006 Giro GC. There's only one of the 5 other guys that wasn't busted for doping... I'll keep the feeling that I was robbed.

Are you jealous of the fame that experienced other french riders that did cheat ?

No. I know what they did and how they did it. Ok, they're more famous than I am and their houses are bigger but I don't care. And, maybe they feel bad about it. Maybe one day they'll regret it.

You have your conscience...

That's it. Even if, for the public, what we do is impossible without doping. People don't believe me ! I can't stand it. I'm treated as a thief although I've been honest. It's painful. Furthermore, with the Adams system, I felt like being in jail. By retiring, I have the feeling of being set free !

 

[nayr497]

There is doping in most sports. How can we explain that cycling alone seems to have been 100% dopers in the recent past?

It seems like in other sports there are some cheaters, but not the entire pro level. Why is that?

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Re:

If a clean rider has gotten to WT without dope, he will at least know what lies in store as stories will have filtered back and he no doubt will have been offered PEDs by his own federations doctors and coaches. But the difference between WT and everything below it is big. Again he is entering an environment where doping is the norm. He will stick out in his team as 'Mr Clean' and those that dope will not welcome that, neither will masseurs, mechanics, chefs etc some who will have been former riders and doped and also who all benefit from the win money at the end of the season. Everyone on the team is for the win or else they wouldn't be there. Not everyone on the team will win, but fetching bidons, rain capes etc is for the win.

Ok, everyone within a pro cycling team is an evil calculating person. Got it.

Never said or inferred that. You go for Nazi Germany and now infer i think everyone is evil. Some leap of imagination....

Pro teams are run like a business, some better than others. JV went and got an MBA.......

I dont recall anyone calling Mercier, Bassons or Obree hypocrites. Aru suing Henderson, well let us see how far that goes before we give judgement. I dont think Henderson is clean, but he might have felt that Astana were taking the piss. They all dope but they dont want anymore Ricco, Pantani, Riis, Armstrong scenarios. But there is a vibe from Anglophones that they are less dopers than the others. Just read the tone of the 'Secret Pro' and the BS he spouts. All positive towards anglophones but damning against non anglophones.

So it's fair to dope but not too obviously, is that it ? But wait, what about if I actually want to win ? Shouldn't I dope like, to the highest level ? Where is the limit ? For a peloton full of evil characters, it might be tricky

Again I dont call anyone evil. It is the culture of the sport, doping, do you not follow cycling? Read up on it's history and those who ran and currently run the sport.

100Grand is not much when you will only get it for 2 years and have no qualifications at the end of it. Again there lies the problem for a rider. How does he get a contract? He needs to show a team he can 'perform'. How can he perform when the others are already ahead with their preparation? How does he get another 2 year 100grand a year contract when so many are 'performing'. 200grand for 2 years is not much when you are finished as a pro at 25 and spent 10 years dedicated to riding a bike.

100 grand with no qualification is better than nothing with no qualification. And getting 100 grand with qualification ain't easy, either !

I dont think it makes good sense to end up with a 2 year contract and 200 grand before taxes and then you are out on your arse after 10 years of effort. But then many bike riders show little or no sense.

I think most top amateurs were aware that they will do what it takes, PEDs and all. Those that wont will not get to WT level.

No, they're aware people do. They're aware they have to reach a level. Wether they do it clean or not is another matter. You know, end/means...

I dont think it is possible to race WT cleans for the many reasons i have already cited. It may be possible to try but longevity (2+ years) in the sport involves PEDs.

There are only 2 teams that talk about being clean, Garmin and Sky and this year apart from Froome talking about testing on Tenerife the anti doping silence this year from them has been deafening.

Come on, every team talks about being clean. Heard about MPCC and stuff like that ? And surely every sponsor does too. Doping isn't too good a PR strategy. And where does the money comes from ? Yeah, sponsors.

Every team talks clean when asked. Garmin and Sky put themselves up on pedestals as The Clean Teams. MPCC is a smoke screen. See Lotto leaving MPCC, watch the rest follow.....

I never said teams admit to doping. I reckon most sponsors know teams do what they can to win and as long as they are not caught the sponsor is happy. I never believed Vroomen when he said he didn't know what Riis was up to.

Also i think that a rider who rode clean has plenty opportunity via the internet to anonymously give a voice to his cleanliness and talk about what he is up against in pro cycling. Again I can not imagine a rider who raced from junior to WT clean accepting, ok, all these guys are cheating but i wont do it and accept that even though i am better than lots of them they will perform better than me due to PEDs. That eats away at the psyche and a rider will be faced with a choice, dope or leave.

Maybe you couldn't, and maybe I couldn't. It doesn't mean nobody can.

It goes against the idea of a competitor. It would go against everything a rider has felt in pursuing his dream to race on a WT, then to see that it is all a hoax, a fraud and live with that by being clean. Nope you join or walk.

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Re:

Sandy Casar interview when he announced he was quitting at 34, after a 14 years career, in 2013:

http://www.leparisien.fr/sports/autres/video-cyclisme-je-prefere-arreter-la-annonce-sandy-casar-06-09-2013-3112609.php#xtref=http%3A%2F%2Factualites.leparisien.fr%2Fsandy%2Bcasar.html

Rider declares they never doped. Shock. They all say that.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Re: Re:

Rider declares they never doped. Shock. They all say that.

Otra pregunta...

 

[@NL_LeMondFans]

Re: Re:

If a clean rider has gotten to WT without dope, he will at least know what lies in store as stories will have filtered back and he no doubt will have been offered PEDs by his own federations doctors and coaches. But the difference between WT and everything below it is big. Again he is entering an environment where doping is the norm. He will stick out in his team as 'Mr Clean' and those that dope will not welcome that, neither will masseurs, mechanics, chefs etc some who will have been former riders and doped and also who all benefit from the win money at the end of the season. Everyone on the team is for the win or else they wouldn't be there. Not everyone on the team will win, but fetching bidons, rain capes etc is for the win.

Ok, everyone within a pro cycling team is an evil calculating person. Got it.

Never said or inferred that. You go for Nazi Germany and now infer i think everyone is evil. Some leap of imagination....

Pro teams are run like a business, some better than others. JV went and got an MBA.......

I dont recall anyone calling Mercier, Bassons or Obree hypocrites. Aru suing Henderson, well let us see how far that goes before we give judgement. I dont think Henderson is clean, but he might have felt that Astana were taking the piss. They all dope but they dont want anymore Ricco, Pantani, Riis, Armstrong scenarios. But there is a vibe from Anglophones that they are less dopers than the others. Just read the tone of the 'Secret Pro' and the BS he spouts. All positive towards anglophones but damning against non anglophones.

So it's fair to dope but not too obviously, is that it ? But wait, what about if I actually want to win ? Shouldn't I dope like, to the highest level ? Where is the limit ? For a peloton full of evil characters, it might be tricky

Again I dont call anyone evil. It is the culture of the sport, doping, do you not follow cycling? Read up on it's history and those who ran and currently run the sport.

100Grand is not much when you will only get it for 2 years and have no qualifications at the end of it. Again there lies the problem for a rider. How does he get a contract? He needs to show a team he can 'perform'. How can he perform when the others are already ahead with their preparation? How does he get another 2 year 100grand a year contract when so many are 'performing'. 200grand for 2 years is not much when you are finished as a pro at 25 and spent 10 years dedicated to riding a bike.

100 grand with no qualification is better than nothing with no qualification. And getting 100 grand with qualification ain't easy, either !

I dont think it makes good sense to end up with a 2 year contract and 200 grand before taxes and then you are out on your arse after 10 years of effort. But then many bike riders show little or no sense.

I think most top amateurs were aware that they will do what it takes, PEDs and all. Those that wont will not get to WT level.

No, they're aware people do. They're aware they have to reach a level. Wether they do it clean or not is another matter. You know, end/means...

I dont think it is possible to race WT cleans for the many reasons i have already cited. It may be possible to try but longevity (2+ years) in the sport involves PEDs.

There are only 2 teams that talk about being clean, Garmin and Sky and this year apart from Froome talking about testing on Tenerife the anti doping silence this year from them has been deafening.

Come on, every team talks about being clean. Heard about MPCC and stuff like that ? And surely every sponsor does too. Doping isn't too good a PR strategy. And where does the money comes from ? Yeah, sponsors.

Every team talks clean when asked. Garmin and Sky put themselves up on pedestals as The Clean Teams. MPCC is a smoke screen. See Lotto leaving MPCC, watch the rest follow.....

I never said teams admit to doping. I reckon most sponsors know teams do what they can to win and as long as they are not caught the sponsor is happy. I never believed Vroomen when he said he didn't know what Riis was up to.

Also i think that a rider who rode clean has plenty opportunity via the internet to anonymously give a voice to his cleanliness and talk about what he is up against in pro cycling. Again I can not imagine a rider who raced from junior to WT clean accepting, ok, all these guys are cheating but i wont do it and accept that even though i am better than lots of them they will perform better than me due to PEDs. That eats away at the psyche and a rider will be faced with a choice, dope or leave.

Maybe you couldn't, and maybe I couldn't. It doesn't mean nobody can.

It goes against the idea of a competitor. It would go against everything a rider has felt in pursuing his dream to race on a WT, then to see that it is all a hoax, a fraud and live with that by being clean. Nope you join or walk.

Ha ! You got the sarcasm right. Good.

I think there are many ways to be a competitor, there are many ways to behave in one given situation and it's ok to disagree.

I think assuming everyone is dirty is a slap on the face of the clean riders and contributes to the omerta and all that. I cannot vouch for that, sorry.

Peace.

 

[Roninho]

Re: Re:

When we start comparing pro cycling with Nazi Germany the discussion is over...............the sport is bad, but not comparable.

We're comparing humans reactions in a vastly corrupt environment, since you believe they will all act accordingly or "leave".

People in Nazi Germany were exterminated for their beliefs. Not sure many cyclists were for trying to ride clean....

Clean riders will not flourish or survive in a doping culture environment. Simple. It is a team sport. Others will not accept someone taking a higher moral ground than them. Bassons is an example. Kimmage is another who knew that competing against dopers meant he had no chance. Kimmage also knew the benefit doping gave, having doped for a few post TdF crits.

That's the trick, in order to survive, clean riders kept their mouths shut, hence you don't know about them. The fact that you don't know them doesn't mean they don't exist.

One of the main differences between Kimmage and the early 00's is that in the early 00's you could have a very good salary without winning any race. When you get 25 000€ a month, it becomes more interesting to keep your mouth shut and do your thing rather than "leave" because there's little chance you'll be paid as much for another job. When Kimmage rode, a domestique was not paid very well.

I don't think teams want clean riders for a start. Why get a clean rider that straight away puts everyone on guard? Why get a clean rider who believes doping is wrong when the rest of the team believe it is part of the sport? Why hire a clean rider who cant do much compared to a rider who responds well to PEDs and might get you a A GT stage or a classic or even a monument? Why have someone who is different from the team because he is clean and the rest resent it? Not going to happen.

As for not hearing about riders who did not dope, we did. Scott Mercier, Tilford, Obree, Bassons all speak about not doping. To swim against the tide of doping takes a strength of will and conviction, that rider is not a mouse who will never squeak, that rider is someone not afraid and therefore will not ride in silence to earn 100grand a year. I cannot imagine there is a rider in the pro peloton who is clean while all around everyone is performing above their natural abilities and this pro has got to bust his gut everyday without the PEDs while most of the world thinks they are doping too. Dont think so. Dont think that mentality exists in pro sport. You either speak out for your own integrity or you crawl away from the sport with your tail between your legs.

I fully agree with nl_lemondfans. I think you are massively simplifying the concept of how people react and more specifically that people act differently if you think it is either speak out or walk away.

 

[Benotti69]

it is simple. Pro cycling is a small sport. There is no room for people not willing to embrace the culture.

 

[Von Mises]

I do not want to interrupt interesting conversation, but just in case if you have not noticed, it is year 2015. So, talking about Obree and Bassons and their experience two decades ago, maybe it is not veru useful anymore?

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

I think Benottis problem is he can´t imagine other peoples psyche. He always arguments from his "final truth" view. Yet there are integer people in every dirty pro sports, even politics.
Take the NFL, guys refuse the needle. MLB players refusing to take steroids. And yes clean riders surviving in the pro peloton not taking drugs, thinking about their health later...
Besides that, his set-in-stone-view contraticts with himself believing Bassons & Lemond were riding clean, yet everybody dopes at the top level.

 

[hrotha]

I do not want to interrupt interesting conversation, but just in case if you have not noticed, it is year 2015. So, talking about Obree and Bassons and their experience two decades ago, maybe it is not veru useful anymore?

Probably not, but it's not like we have better sources either.

Similarly, the most recent year a tell-all covers is... 2008, with Kohl? We believe there are newish methods that either have replaced or complement blood doping, but we don't have a lot of info about how exactly modern programs work.

 

[Archibald]

Re: Re:

[.... That eats away at the psyche and a rider will be faced with a choice, dope or leave.

Tyler talks of the "1,000 days" where that decision is made as a moment that all in the peloton must face.


As for the MPCC comments made earlier about 'clean teams', Astana is a member, no?

 

[@NL_LeMondFans]

Re: Re:

[.... That eats away at the psyche and a rider will be faced with a choice, dope or leave.

Tyler talks of the "1,000 days" where that decision is made as a moment that all in the peloton must face.


As for the MPCC comments made earlier about 'clean teams', Astana is a member, no?

Tyler : IMO, the choice is not "dope or leave", it is "to dope, not to dope, or leave".

MPCC : have you even read the comment ? Noboday said MPCC teams were clean. It was a reply to Benotti who said only Garmin and Sky were vocal about doping. Most teams are. They have to, for the sake of sponsorship.

 

[@NL_LeMondFans]

I do not want to interrupt interesting conversation, but just in case if you have not noticed, it is year 2015. So, talking about Obree and Bassons and their experience two decades ago, maybe it is not veru useful anymore?

Probably not, but it's not like we have better sources either.

Similarly, the most recent year a tell-all covers is... 2008, with Kohl? We believe there are newish methods that either have replaced or complement blood doping, but we don't have a lot of info about how exactly modern programs work.

That's true. I guess the lesson dopers learned from before is that secrecy is the most important rule of all. They're getting better at it. Especially when convicted dopers were allowed to come back in the sport. No way Alberto or Alejandro are making the same mistake. It also explains why there are more people being caught on the continental level these days. Sloppy job. Mistakes. They get busted.