If there was one clean rider...

[Benotti69]

Re:

I think Benottis problem is he can´t imagine other peoples psyche. He always arguments from his "final truth" view. Yet there are integer people in every dirty pro sports, even politics.
Take the NFL, guys refuse the needle. MLB players refusing to take steroids. And yes clean riders surviving in the pro peloton not taking drugs, thinking about their health later...
Besides that, his set-in-stone-view contraticts with himself believing Bassons & Lemond were riding clean, yet everybody dopes at the top level.

"final truth", please post a link where i said that!

Bassons didn't last in the peloton. So it points to clean riders not surviving and no one on Bassons team stood up for him, or did so against Omerta.

LeMond i doubt. I used to think LeMond was clean, but now i am not so sure. I dont like LeMond's attitude of just seeing Armstrong as the bad doper and the rest get off free. That is omerta.

My views are guided by the inherent corruption of the governing body ( the fish rots from the head), that all teams have ex riders who achieved through doping, that sport has a doping culture, that testing is a joke, that even if caught and you play the game you can come back and have a great career.........some pretty hard truths about the sport that......

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Re:

[.... That eats away at the psyche and a rider will be faced with a choice, dope or leave.

Tyler talks of the "1,000 days" where that decision is made as a moment that all in the peloton must face.


As for the MPCC comments made earlier about 'clean teams', Astana is a member, no?

Tyler : IMO, the choice is not "dope or leave", it is "to dope, not to dope, or leave".

MPCC : have you even read the comment ? Noboday said MPCC teams were clean. It was a reply to Benotti who said only Garmin and Sky were vocal about doping. Most teams are. They have to, for the sake of sponsorship.

Can you point to some examples where teams like Astana , katusha, Movistar, BMC, Lottos, Lampre etc have without being asked talked about being clean?

Garmin did it and Sky did through 1st Kimmage when he worked at Sunday Times then Walsh has become their PR 'clean team' man.

MPCC is a smoke screen. A fool can see through it. It has no powers. It was a reaction to try and show that only Armstrong and his team doped, the rest of us dont, look we have a 'Movement for clean cycling'.....MPCC = Joke.

 

[@NL_LeMondFans]

Re: Re:

[.... That eats away at the psyche and a rider will be faced with a choice, dope or leave.

Tyler talks of the "1,000 days" where that decision is made as a moment that all in the peloton must face.


As for the MPCC comments made earlier about 'clean teams', Astana is a member, no?

Tyler : IMO, the choice is not "dope or leave", it is "to dope, not to dope, or leave".

MPCC : have you even read the comment ? Noboday said MPCC teams were clean. It was a reply to Benotti who said only Garmin and Sky were vocal about doping. Most teams are. They have to, for the sake of sponsorship.

Can you point to some examples where teams like Astana , katusha, Movistar, BMC, Lottos, Lampre etc have without being asked talked about being clean?

Garmin did it and Sky did through 1st Kimmage when he worked at Sunday Times then Walsh has become their PR 'clean team' man.

MPCC is a smoke screen. A fool can see through it. It has no powers. It was a reaction to try and show that only Armstrong and his team doped, the rest of us dont, look we have a 'Movement for clean cycling'.....MPCC = Joke.

I was more thinking about french teams.

MPCC is inefficient, yes and absolutely no guarantee but it's still interesting to see it ask their teams for cortisol tests. Lampre just left the movement because of that.

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Re:

Ha ! You got the sarcasm right. Good.

I think there are many ways to be a competitor, there are many ways to behave in one given situation and it's ok to disagree.

I think assuming everyone is dirty is a slap on the face of the clean riders and contributes to the omerta and all that. I cannot vouch for that, sorry.

Peace.

I am not assuming. It is obvious to me. Why would Riis, Bruyneel, Rihs, Lefevre, Martinelli et al take on a rider who was not going to be part of a team and do everything possible to help the team achieve its goals, ie winning races?

The arguments a clean rider can only put forth is that he will not cheat by doping it is against the rules. Well these guys dont give a fig about the rules, neither does the UCI when it suits, so they get on with the business in hand of 'preparing' their riders. If a rider doesn't want to prepare there are a 100 waiting who will!

Look at how many have been thrown under the bus by teams, by managers, by nat federations, by the UCI!

Cheers for the discussion.

 

[hrotha]

But Benotti, your reasoning would only work if team-wide doping was still how teams operated. That goes against our observations about secretive pockets.

(To be clear: the pockets might well end up encompassing 99% of the peloton, but the point is that they're supposed to be independent from each other and to not know what the other guys are up to)

 

[@NL_LeMondFans]

Re: Re:

I think Benottis problem is he can´t imagine other peoples psyche. He always arguments from his "final truth" view. Yet there are integer people in every dirty pro sports, even politics.
Take the NFL, guys refuse the needle. MLB players refusing to take steroids. And yes clean riders surviving in the pro peloton not taking drugs, thinking about their health later...
Besides that, his set-in-stone-view contraticts with himself believing Bassons & Lemond were riding clean, yet everybody dopes at the top level.

"final truth", please post a link where i said that!

Don't be a child. You know it's not about that specific choice of words. It is about the tone you are using over and over again. It is not stated as your opinion but as if it's the truth. And whatever contradiction you're opposed, you will not read it, interpret it or disregard it because it doesn't fit "the truth".

Your ideas would be much more interesting if your tone was more flexible. You're just so affirmative. Chill out, bro.

Your words :

"MPCC is a smoke screen. A fool can see through it. It has no powers. It was a reaction to try and show that only Armstrong and his team doped, the rest of us dont, look we have a 'Movement for clean cycling'.....MPCC = Joke"
==>truth

"it is simple. Pro cycling is a small sport. There is no room for people not willing to embrace the culture."
==>truth

"If a clean rider has gotten to WT without dope, he will at least know what lies in store as stories will have filtered back and he no doubt will have been offered PEDs by his own federations doctors and coaches. But the difference between WT and everything below it is big. Again he is entering an environment where doping is the norm. He will stick out in his team as 'Mr Clean' and those that dope will not welcome that, neither will masseurs, mechanics, chefs etc some who will have been former riders and doped and also who all benefit from the win money at the end of the season. Everyone on the team is for the win or else they wouldn't be there. Not everyone on the team will win, but fetching bidons, rain capes etc is for the win."
==>truth

"I think most top amateurs were aware that they will do what it takes, PEDs and all. Those that wont will not get to WT level."
==>truth

"I dont think it is possible to race WT cleans for the many reasons i have already cited. It may be possible to try but longevity (2+ years) in the sport involves PEDs."
==>truth

...see a pattern ? And I didn't care to report just everyhting.

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Re:

[.... That eats away at the psyche and a rider will be faced with a choice, dope or leave.

Tyler talks of the "1,000 days" where that decision is made as a moment that all in the peloton must face.


As for the MPCC comments made earlier about 'clean teams', Astana is a member, no?

Tyler : IMO, the choice is not "dope or leave", it is "to dope, not to dope, or leave".

MPCC : have you even read the comment ? Noboday said MPCC teams were clean. It was a reply to Benotti who said only Garmin and Sky were vocal about doping. Most teams are. They have to, for the sake of sponsorship.

Can you point to some examples where teams like Astana , katusha, Movistar, BMC, Lottos, Lampre etc have without being asked talked about being clean?

Garmin did it and Sky did through 1st Kimmage when he worked at Sunday Times then Walsh has become their PR 'clean team' man.

MPCC is a smoke screen. A fool can see through it. It has no powers. It was a reaction to try and show that only Armstrong and his team doped, the rest of us dont, look we have a 'Movement for clean cycling'.....MPCC = Joke.

I was more thinking about french teams.

MPCC is inefficient, yes and absolutely no guarantee but it's still interesting to see it ask their teams for cortisol tests. Lampre just left the movement because of that.

For me the French teams never stopped 'preparing' they just kept it to a level that was never going to pop a test.

MPCC is powerless. When a team doesn't like MPCC they leave, Lampre and Lotto 2 teams that left. If MPCC had power why not kick out Astana? Why not call out Sky for not joining? MPCC is run by former dopers!

Do you remember the MPCC were going to sue Armstrong. They have a rule which says they can sue people who damage the image of the sport! They never sued Armstrong, neither are they suing Astana! MPCC = nice idea but fake. Bit like JV..........

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Re:

...see a pattern ? And I didn't care to report just everyhting.

I am very happy with my 'tone' and I am chill. Just been watching Dauphiné.

Those who wish to seen cleanliness if pro cycling are deluding themselves, in my humble 'toned' opinion.

There is nothing, IMO, in modern cycling that points to a cyclist being able to race at WT level clean for a career.

 

[Tonton]

Re: Re:

I was more thinking about french teams.

MPCC is inefficient, yes and absolutely no guarantee but it's still interesting to see it ask their teams for cortisol tests. Lampre just left the movement because of that.

I'm biased here, but for the most part, I think the French teams are clean/cleanish, which IMO explains why until last year French riders in French teams were second fiddles. Except for Europcar, the miraculous knee injury recoveries, Rolland's TUE and the Voekler 4th place joke.

When I say "until last year", does it mean the French teams got "less" clean (AG2R got riders caught), does it mean the peloton got "cleaner"? I think the great '14 TdF for the French had a lot to do with Dawg, Bertie DNF.

I like Pinot publishing data, his power output in climbing stages was realistic. Yet, it is hard to believe that one can top-5 in a GT on pan y agua these days.

 

[@NL_LeMondFans]

Re: Re:

I was more thinking about french teams.

MPCC is inefficient, yes and absolutely no guarantee but it's still interesting to see it ask their teams for cortisol tests. Lampre just left the movement because of that.

For me the French teams never stopped 'preparing' they just kept it to a level that was never going to pop a test.

MPCC is powerless. When a team doesn't like MPCC they leave, Lampre and Lotto 2 teams that left. If MPCC had power why not kick out Astana? Why not call out Sky for not joining? MPCC is run by former dopers!

Do you remember the MPCC were going to sue Armstrong. They have a rule which says they can sue people who damage the image of the sport! They never sued Armstrong, neither are they suing Astana! MPCC = nice idea but fake. Bit like JV..........

Why are you writing this as if I was defending MPCC ? I just wrote they were inefficient. Again, that tone is not necessary. You have to understand it's hard to communicate with you when you do that.

We agree on MPCC, FFS !

 

[Benotti69]

Re:

But Benotti, your reasoning would only work if team-wide doping was still how teams operated. That goes against our observations about secretive pockets.

(To be clear: the pockets might well end up encompassing 99% of the peloton, but the point is that they're supposed to be independent from each other and to not know what the other guys are up to)

That secret pocket thing was blown out of the water with Ferrari working with Astana. Katusha are a state backed teams also and will have a full on program. Sky having the blue train at TdFs 2012/13......

I think teams have clued into not making it as blatant amongst the riders that everyone is on something. Keep them guessing, divide and conquer.

Too many people are looking only at the EPO era for comparison with todays teams. The biggest reasoning to team wide doping is teams having multiple doctors. If you are a fit and healthy athlete what do you need a doctor for? Basson never spoke to his teams doctors. In his pro career he needed a doctor 3 times and went to his local GP. Doctors are for when you are ill, unless you are doping then well you see why teams need so many doctors.

 

[@NL_LeMondFans]

Re: Re:

...see a pattern ? And I didn't care to report just everyhting.

I am very happy with my 'tone' and I am chill. Just been watching Dauphiné.

Those who wish to seen cleanliness if pro cycling are deluding themselves, in my humble 'toned' opinion.

There is nothing, IMO, in modern cycling that points to a cyclist being able to race at WT level clean for a career.

"IMO" is a good start, thank you.

But the words "wish" and "deluding" ruin the effect. You talk like if we were morons. You don't need it.

 

[@NL_LeMondFans]

Re: Re:

I was more thinking about french teams.

MPCC is inefficient, yes and absolutely no guarantee but it's still interesting to see it ask their teams for cortisol tests. Lampre just left the movement because of that.

I'm biased here, but for the most part, I think the French teams are clean/cleanish, which IMO explains why until last year French riders in French teams were second fiddles. Except for Europcar, the miraculous knee injury recoveries, Rolland's TUE and the Voekler 4th place joke.

When I say "until last year", does it mean the French teams got "less" clean (AG2R got riders caught), does it mean the peloton got "cleaner"? I think the great '14 TdF for the French had a lot to do with Dawg, Bertie DNF.

I like Pinot publishing data, his power output in climbing stages was realistic. Yet, it is hard to believe that one can top-5 in a GT on pan y agua these days.

Totally agree. Europcar's 2011 & 2012 years were questionable, to say the least. Have you read Casar's interview ?

BTW, I am french too...

 

[Tonton]

Re: Re:

Totally agree. Europcar's 2011 & 2012 years were questionable, to say the least. Have you read Casar's interview ?

BTW, I am french too...

Yes, I read it, the guy is as down to earth as it comes, having fun mixing it up with amateurs in cyclocross. I don't know what to make of his lack of anger when discussing doping. Had I been $crewed like he may have been, I would be VERY vocal. Instead, he said that he was doing his own thing, not really paying attention to what was going on. That, tome, is the problem. I know he still has little jobs with ASO and FDJ, so he may want to watch what he says. Omerta.

 

[@NL_LeMondFans]

Re: Re:

Totally agree. Europcar's 2011 & 2012 years were questionable, to say the least. Have you read Casar's interview ?

BTW, I am french too...

Yes, I read it, the guy is as down to earth as it comes, having fun mixing it up with amateurs in cyclocross. I don't know what to make of his lack of anger when discussing doping. Had I been $crewed like he may have been, I would be VERY vocal. Instead, he said that he was doing his own thing, not really paying attention to what was going on. That, tome, is the problem. I know he still has little jobs with ASO and FDJ, so he may want to watch what he says. Omerta.

To me, it illustrates what I was saying about "surviving" the doped peloton when you are clean. You know, that kind of closure I was talking about : do your best, do not care too much about the other guys, do your thing and keep a low profile. To some extent, I believe Montcoutié was like that too. This attitude also explains the lack of results of french riders during the last 2 decades. They were losers, literally.

 

[Tonton]

Re: Re:

[quote="@NL_LeMondFans[/urlTo me, it illustrates what I was saying about "surviving" the doped peloton when you are clean. You know, that kind of closure I was talking about : do your best, do not care too much about the other guys, do your thing and keep a low profile. To some extent, I believe Montcoutié was like that too. This attitude also explains the lack of results of french riders during the last 2 decades. They were losers, literally.[/quote]
Hinault called them "nazes" (bums/losers) and "lazy". L'Equipe broadcasted his criticism as the gospel according to St. Bernard. No one except a few active French riders called Hinault's BS. So yes, many things conspired to the Mottet, Delion, Casar or Moncoutie remaining quiet. Sad.

 

[Pulp]

To be in TOP 50 doesnt say much. Lucky break or bad crash and you can gain or loose 50 places easily. Outside of TOP 10 most places doesnt tell much about GC ability, but more about tactiss, your role in team and so on.

I believe there have been plenty of riders clean in TOP 50. Though, I think that today most of the riders are clean and even 10-15 years ago there were more clean riders than provbly Clinic thinks.

This.

 

[Pulp]

Re: Re:

But Benotti, your reasoning would only work if team-wide doping was still how teams operated. That goes against our observations about secretive pockets.

(To be clear: the pockets might well end up encompassing 99% of the peloton, but the point is that they're supposed to be independent from each other and to not know what the other guys are up to)

That secret pocket thing was blown out of the water with Ferrari working with Astana. Katusha are a state backed teams also and will have a full on program. Sky having the blue train at TdFs 2012/13......

I think teams have clued into not making it as blatant amongst the riders that everyone is on something. Keep them guessing, divide and conquer.

Too many people are looking only at the EPO era for comparison with todays teams. The biggest reasoning to team wide doping is teams having multiple doctors. If you are a fit and healthy athlete what do you need a doctor for? Basson never spoke to his teams doctors. In his pro career he needed a doctor 3 times and went to his local GP. Doctors are for when you are ill, unless you are doping then well you see why teams need so many doctors.

Wow.. you admit to speculating for once! (although what you think is probably wrong, but hey, at least you don`t claim to know it)

Given that aprox 60% of humans want to do good, I think there is a huge statistical probability that a significant percentage of the peloton was clean even in the Lance era, albeit, I`ll give you: probably at a lower rate than the population as a whole.. (There was and probably is quite a few "good" ones that gives up, I`ll give you that.). I do however THINK that your binary world view where you know that a rider can`t stay in the peloton for more than 2 years without doping is ***... Quite a few human beings would be willing to struggle their arse off for $100k a year without ever achieving their "fair" status or whatever...

That is just one of MANY statements you come up with that just don`t seem reasonable by any standard. Can`t be bothered to systematically go through them all, as there must be dozens in this thread alone.

In sum: You are quite a fundamentalistic idiotic know-it-all even by clinic standards.. I just hope that you don`t have a leadership role in whatever position in society you might hold.

 

[Dr.Guess]

I guess that Benotti's guess is as good as anybody's guess wrt to how many in the peloton dope? I think it's certainly understandable how in cycling you could come to that conclusion.

 

[Pulp]

Re:

I guess that Benotti's guess is as good as anybody's guess wrt to how many in the peloton dope? I think it's certainly understandable how in cycling you could come to that conclusion.

Well. Benotti thinks that every rider that rides for a world tour team for over 2 years is doped, and it must have been that way for at least some 20(?) years, This is for me a very, very extreme view. Sure, it`s understandable that someone has arrived at that view, but that doesn`t say much. I understand why some would be a religious fundamentalist as well..

 

[gillan1969]

Re: Re:

I guess that Benotti's guess is as good as anybody's guess wrt to how many in the peloton dope? I think it's certainly understandable how in cycling you could come to that conclusion.

Well. Benotti thinks that every rider that rides for a world tour team for over 2 years is doped, and it must have been that way for at least some 20(?) years, This is for me a very, very extreme view. Sure, it`s understandable that someone has arrived at that view, but that doesn`t say much. I understand why some would be a religious fundamentalist as well..

not really...god doesn't keep appearing regularly...doping scandals do...generally involving the top riders...the top riders (these days) need a train...the testing system is designed to allow you to dope (to agreed and preset levels)...it's rather extreme to think that, based on the evidence of the past, the peloton is not doping...

 

[Pulp]

Re: Re:

I guess that Benotti's guess is as good as anybody's guess wrt to how many in the peloton dope? I think it's certainly understandable how in cycling you could come to that conclusion.

Well. Benotti thinks that every rider that rides for a world tour team for over 2 years is doped, and it must have been that way for at least some 20(?) years, This is for me a very, very extreme view. Sure, it`s understandable that someone has arrived at that view, but that doesn`t say much. I understand why some would be a religious fundamentalist as well..

not really...god doesn't keep appearing regularly...doping scandals do...generally involving the top riders...the top riders (these days) need a train...the testing system is designed to allow you to dope (to agreed and preset levels)...it's rather extreme to think that, based on the evidence of the past, the peloton is not doping...

Haha! I don`t need god to appear regularly or at all to understand that someone is a religious fundamentalist.
However i don`t understand your chain of thought. You arrive at the conclusion that:
"it`s rather extreme to think that, based on the evidence of the past, the peloton is not doping"
I can only assume you think this is what I mean? Well, I don`t. I think there is a portion of the peloton that dopes, and a portion that doesn`t. So what evidence of the past makes this an extreme view?

And how you get to your conclusion is interesting as well..
1. doping scandals appear regurarly.
2. generally they involve top riders.
3. the top riders need a train.
4. the testing is designed to allow you to dope.
Leads to conclusion:
5. it`s rather extreme to think that, based on the evidence of the past, the peloton is not doping

We can agree on 1.
I`ll give you 2, albeit this article https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_doping_cases_in_cycling
names quite a few non-top riders, but what is a top rider anyways. Needs to be defined.
But the top riders need a train! Yes, that`s a good one. I suppose that means, for the domestiques to tow the captains they need to be doped? Well, does it? Most captains doesn`t really have well functioning trains anyway. And why do all these riders need to be doped?
Oh, and yes.. The testing is designed to allow you to dope... Ok.. bold statement. How is that? I agree there is evidence that suggests that you can get away with micro-dosing EPO without getting caught.

And even though you have 4 statements that don`t really connect or are true, but even if they were true, they certainly don`t prove or even indicate strongly that the entire peloton is doping!
And how is it not more extreme to have the view that a 100% of the pro`s that had a world tour contract for more than 2 years is doping, than to claim some dope and some don`t. There are no evidence 2 support the first for starters.

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

Re: Re:

I guess that Benotti's guess is as good as anybody's guess wrt to how many in the peloton dope? I think it's certainly understandable how in cycling you could come to that conclusion.

Well. Benotti thinks that every rider that rides for a world tour team for over 2 years is doped, and it must have been that way for at least some 20(?) years, This is for me a very, very extreme view. Sure, it`s understandable that someone has arrived at that view, but that doesn`t say much. I understand why some would be a religious fundamentalist as well..

Pretty much sums it up. I understand too, how Benotti came to his extreme (some might call fundamentalistic) POV. But I strongly disagree.
And thanks to NL-Lemond-Fans to answer Benottis question pointed at me (about the "final truth" post), it saved me some time.
I would only further add:
Why is not everybody doping (not even in the darkest era)?
1.) There are strong characters/strong wills (like Bassons, who didn´t dope b/c of ethical reasons).
2.) There are riders who care for long term health (thus resisting drugs, like some NFL pros resist the numbing needle, or MLB pros resist steroids/HGH).
3.) There are riders who simply fear to get caught.
When the passport came, blood parameters changed dramatically. Evidence for me that at least some of the last few years were relatively clean. Further evidence is Horners Vuelta win. Had every young healthy top guy swallowed pills and inject/transfused as him, Horner would have finished where 40+ year olds finish: Max. in the upper fifth of the pack.
Then we have the Bassons (whose career only got cut short b/c of him making enemys), Delions, Mottets, Casars, Moncouties that could keep up clean... So there is no evidence that Benottis POV is reality (that 100% of the pro riders dope).

 

[robertmooreheadlane]

The part that makes it such an interesting discussion is that no-one can prove anything and therefore no-one has a point of view that is right or wrong.

Actually the parallels with religion are very well founded as there is no evidence that proves god or any other higher being exists and there is no proof that one doesn't so people will argue about it and fight over it for eons and never get to a conclusion.

The fact that someone has a strong view one way or another is not any different in this arena either

One thing I would say though is that everyone communicates differently and the way people type their comments is basically not always how they want them read.
If more people read what they wrote before posting then things would probably get less heated, but then again who has time. Definitely not many of the people on here with thousands and thousands of posts.

So in summary - Cyclists Dope - We know this as they get caught.
Do all cyclists dope? No one knows. we can all speculate and form theories.

Is everyone who thinks one or the other view an idiot or imbecile or stupid or other such terms, NO.
The only people who deserve those names are the ones who will call other people them based on a forum post which they don't agree with.

 

[Pulp]

Re:

The part that makes it such an interesting discussion is that no-one can prove anything and therefore no-one has a point of view that is right or wrong.

Actually the parallels with religion are very well founded as there is no evidence that proves god or any other higher being exists and there is no proof that one doesn't so people will argue about it and fight over it for eons and never get to a conclusion.

The fact that someone has a strong view one way or another is not any different in this arena either

One thing I would say though is that everyone communicates differently and the way people type their comments is basically not always how they want them read.
If more people read what they wrote before posting then things would probably get less heated, but then again who has time. Definitely not many of the people on here with thousands and thousands of posts.

So in summary - Cyclists Dope - We know this as they get caught.
Do all cyclists dope? No one knows. we can all speculate and form theories.

Is everyone who thinks one or the other view an idiot or imbecile or stupid or other such terms, NO.
The only people who deserve those names are the ones who will call other people them based on a forum post which they don't agree with.

So by that standard everyone can claim that all athletes of all times are dopers.
Their opinion would be just as valid as any opinion claiming the oposite.
I mean, if anyone didn`t dope, it can`t be proved, as negative tests isn`t proof of anything. Armstrong being
the obvious example.
By that standard you can claim just about anything about anything and any argument to the contrary would just be a difference of opinion.
The fact that all statistical probability, logic and reason would indicate otherwise doesn`t matter.
Come on, that is pure BS.
And, I`m sorry for saying so, but that logic is idiotic.

And yes, please call me an idiot for calling Benotti an idiot. It`s your opinion, you are entitled to it. I can live with that. I even agree some! But to be precise: My statement was not based on 1 post from Benotti, but a sum of all the posts I`ve seen him post here.