If there was one clean rider...

[Benotti69]

Re: Re:

Erik Bruekink wants us to believe he had to retire early (Aged 33) because he refused to take EPO......

from his wiki page "In 1993, Breukink switched to the ONCE team, where his performance improved again"...

Riders telling lies. Now there's a new one.......

Who´s not? The average person lies at least twice a day... So what is it that makes riders extra-evil in your opinion? Does it make all of them dopers, because they behave like average Joe?

Where did i call anyone evil? never mind 'extra-evil'...

Jeez.

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Re:

Erik Bruekink wants us to believe he had to retire early (Aged 33) because he refused to take EPO......

from his wiki page "In 1993, Breukink switched to the ONCE team, where his performance improved again"...

Riders telling lies. Now there's a new one.......

selective quoting. You left off the "in sufficient quantities". This was ONCE...

I dont suppose ONCE in 1993 were using EPO..........that new undetectable performance enhancer....

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

Re: Re:

Erik Bruekink wants us to believe he had to retire early (Aged 33) because he refused to take EPO......

from his wiki page "In 1993, Breukink switched to the ONCE team, where his performance improved again"...

Riders telling lies. Now there's a new one.......

Who´s not? The average person lies at least twice a day... So what is it that makes riders extra-evil in your opinion? Does it make all of them dopers, because they behave like average Joe?

Where did i call anyone evil? never mind 'extra-evil'...

Jeez.

You didn´t. All good. As NL-Lemond-Fans also used the word, we mean your posts in general suggest that pro peloton riders are some kind of a low form of life, a bunch of cheaters, weak characters, unable to think of long term risks that come with doping, unaware of placebo effects, believers of (dope-)docs being their healers, a bunch of opressed/silenced lemmings... every single one of them. So I use one describing word "evil". Could have been another one ofc.

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Re:

Erik Bruekink wants us to believe he had to retire early (Aged 33) because he refused to take EPO......

from his wiki page "In 1993, Breukink switched to the ONCE team, where his performance improved again"...

Riders telling lies. Now there's a new one.......

Who´s not? The average person lies at least twice a day... So what is it that makes riders extra-evil in your opinion? Does it make all of them dopers, because they behave like average Joe?

Where did i call anyone evil? never mind 'extra-evil'...

Jeez.

You didn´t. All good. As NL-Lemond-Fans also used the word, we mean your posts in general suggest that pro peloton riders are some kind of a low form of life, a bunch of cheaters, weak characters, unable to think of long term risks that come with doping, unaware of placebo effects, believers of (dope-)docs being their healers, a bunch of opressed/silenced lemmings... every single one of them. So I use one describing word "evil". Could have been another one ofc.

Where have i called riders "low form of life, weak characters, unable to think of long term risks that come with doping.."?

I think most of them think of the risk and jump into the cesspool completely of their own accord. They just have to look at the success stories in the sport to see the reward can be well worth the risk. Even those who get caught can still make successful careers.

 

[pmcg76]

Re:

Erik Bruekink wants us to believe he had to retire early (Aged 33) because he refused to take EPO......

from his wiki page "In 1993, Breukink switched to the ONCE team, where his performance improved again"...

Riders telling lies. Now there's a new one.......

Yes, lets rely on a wiki page for inrefutable accuracy on something. Your cluelessness never ceases to amaze.

Breukink finished 3rd/2nd/4th in the 87/88/89 Giros. He won a stage in his first Tour 87 and won the White Jersey at the 88 Tour despite having one awful day in the mountains(he was in a group with Malcolm Elliott at one point). Otherwise he was a genuine podium contender. He was 3rd in the 1990 Tour and was heavily tipped to win in 1991 and was living up to that billing until the PDM affair. He came back to finish 7th at the 92 Tour but after that his best GT result with ONCE was 7th at the 93 Vuelta, in fact his only GT result of note thereafter.

The further into the EPO era, the worse his GT results got so his claim actually holds up except a lot of people would claim he was already on EPO from his PDM days 1990, but he already had the results to show his potential before then without the EPO. If Breukink was on EPO, it was before his ONCE days or otherwise it had very little benefit for him so either way, it could be said it destroyed his career.

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Re:

Erik Bruekink wants us to believe he had to retire early (Aged 33) because he refused to take EPO......

from his wiki page "In 1993, Breukink switched to the ONCE team, where his performance improved again"...

Riders telling lies. Now there's a new one.......

Yes, lets rely on a wiki page for inrefutable accuracy on something. Your cluelessness never ceases to amaze.

Breukink finished 3rd/2nd/4th in the 87/88/89 Giros. He won a stage in his first Tour 87 and won the White Jersey at the 88 Tour despite having one awful day in the mountains(he was in a group with Malcolm Elliott at one point). Otherwise he was a genuine podium contender. He was 3rd in the 1990 Tour and was heavily tipped to win in 1991 and was living up to that billing until the PDM affair. He came back to finish 7th at the 92 Tour but after that his best GT result with ONCE was 7th at the 93 Vuelta, in fact his only GT result of note thereafter.

The further into the EPO era, the worse his GT results got so his claim actually holds up except a lot of people would claim he was already on EPO from his PDM days 1990, but he already had the results to show his potential before then without the EPO. If Breukink was on EPO, it was before his ONCE days or otherwise it had very little benefit for him so either way, it could be said it destroyed his career.

Good man Paddy.

 

[pmcg76]

Re: Re:

Erik Bruekink wants us to believe he had to retire early (Aged 33) because he refused to take EPO......

from his wiki page "In 1993, Breukink switched to the ONCE team, where his performance improved again"...

Riders telling lies. Now there's a new one.......

Yes, lets rely on a wiki page for inrefutable accuracy on something. Your cluelessness never ceases to amaze.

Breukink finished 3rd/2nd/4th in the 87/88/89 Giros. He won a stage in his first Tour 87 and won the White Jersey at the 88 Tour despite having one awful day in the mountains(he was in a group with Malcolm Elliott at one point). Otherwise he was a genuine podium contender. He was 3rd in the 1990 Tour and was heavily tipped to win in 1991 and was living up to that billing until the PDM affair. He came back to finish 7th at the 92 Tour but after that his best GT result with ONCE was 7th at the 93 Vuelta, in fact his only GT result of note thereafter.

The further into the EPO era, the worse his GT results got so his claim actually holds up except a lot of people would claim he was already on EPO from his PDM days 1990, but he already had the results to show his potential before then without the EPO. If Breukink was on EPO, it was before his ONCE days or otherwise it had very little benefit for him so either way, it could be said it destroyed his career.

Good man Paddy.

Thats all you got, really. Must be hard to be shown up time and again and have no real comeback other than lame insults.

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

Re: Re:

Erik Bruekink wants us to believe he had to retire early (Aged 33) because he refused to take EPO......

from his wiki page "In 1993, Breukink switched to the ONCE team, where his performance improved again"...

Riders telling lies. Now there's a new one.......

Who´s not? The average person lies at least twice a day... So what is it that makes riders extra-evil in your opinion? Does it make all of them dopers, because they behave like average Joe?

Where did i call anyone evil? never mind 'extra-evil'...

Jeez.

You didn´t. All good. As NL-Lemond-Fans also used the word, we mean your posts in general suggest that pro peloton riders are some kind of a low form of life, a bunch of cheaters, weak characters, unable to think of long term risks that come with doping, unaware of placebo effects, believers of (dope-)docs being their healers, a bunch of opressed/silenced lemmings... every single one of them. So I use one describing word "evil". Could have been another one ofc.

Where have i called riders "low form of life, weak characters, unable to think of long term risks that come with doping.."?

I think most of them think of the risk and jump into the cesspool completely of their own accord. They just have to look at the success stories in the sport to see the reward can be well worth the risk. Even those who get caught can still make successful careers.

You didn´t. But your posts in general give the impression that pro peloton riders are exactly what I just said...
Ofc many of them are not the brightest. But my problem with your POV is that you think every single one of them is weak (= doper).
I am 100% sure, some riders are very intelligent and know the health risk of doping (and/or getting caught) is not worth it. Some knew it from the beginning, some learned it trou the years (like Gerdemann).
Take cortison for example. Has great effects, but also very dangerous side-effects. It needs only aprox. 50 healthy brain cells to get informed about it and stay away from that stuff as far as possible. And I am sure some pro peloton riders also fear HIV & stuff, thus refusing transfusions, even needles at all... If really 100% of them are full blown idiots (like you hint), well... then this world is indeed beyond help.

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Re:

Erik Bruekink wants us to believe he had to retire early (Aged 33) because he refused to take EPO......

from his wiki page "In 1993, Breukink switched to the ONCE team, where his performance improved again"...

Riders telling lies. Now there's a new one.......

Yes, lets rely on a wiki page for inrefutable accuracy on something. Your cluelessness never ceases to amaze.

Breukink finished 3rd/2nd/4th in the 87/88/89 Giros. He won a stage in his first Tour 87 and won the White Jersey at the 88 Tour despite having one awful day in the mountains(he was in a group with Malcolm Elliott at one point). Otherwise he was a genuine podium contender. He was 3rd in the 1990 Tour and was heavily tipped to win in 1991 and was living up to that billing until the PDM affair. He came back to finish 7th at the 92 Tour but after that his best GT result with ONCE was 7th at the 93 Vuelta, in fact his only GT result of note thereafter.

The further into the EPO era, the worse his GT results got so his claim actually holds up except a lot of people would claim he was already on EPO from his PDM days 1990, but he already had the results to show his potential before then without the EPO. If Breukink was on EPO, it was before his ONCE days or otherwise it had very little benefit for him so either way, it could be said it destroyed his career.

Good man Paddy.

Thats all you got, really. Must be hard to be shown up time and again and have no real comeback other than lame insults.

You name is not Paddy? Well Good man Paul, Peter, Paraic, Pat, Phil......As for insults, pot kettle. Reread your 2nd last rant against me.

Too point to the new clean generation of riders, Armstrong was out riding with Hincapies team t'other day....go figure. Bet he was telling them, "don't dope like me.."

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Re:

[quote="

Who´s not? The average person lies at least twice a day... So what is it that makes riders extra-evil in your opinion? Does it make all of them dopers, because they behave like average Joe?

Where did i call anyone evil? never mind 'extra-evil'...

Jeez.

You didn´t. All good. As NL-Lemond-Fans also used the word, we mean your posts in general suggest that pro peloton riders are some kind of a low form of life, a bunch of cheaters, weak characters, unable to think of long term risks that come with doping, unaware of placebo effects, believers of (dope-)docs being their healers, a bunch of opressed/silenced lemmings... every single one of them. So I use one describing word "evil". Could have been another one ofc.

Where have i called riders "low form of life, weak characters, unable to think of long term risks that come with doping.."?

I think most of them think of the risk and jump into the cesspool completely of their own accord. They just have to look at the success stories in the sport to see the reward can be well worth the risk. Even those who get caught can still make successful careers.

You didn´t. But your posts in general give the impression that pro peloton riders are exactly what I just said...
Ofc many of them are not the brightest. But my problem with your POV is that you think every single one of them is weak (= doper).
I am 100% sure, some riders are very intelligent and know the health risk of doping (and/or getting caught) is not worth it. Some knew it from the beginning, some learned it trou the years (like Gerdemann).
Take cortison for example. Has great effects, but also very dangerous side-effects. It needs only aprox. 50 healthy brain cells to get informed about it and stay away from that stuff as far as possible. And I am sure some pro peloton riders also fear HIV & stuff, thus refusing transfusions, even needles at all... If really 100% of them are full blown idiots (like you hint), well... then this world is indeed beyond help.

Many sports people are not the brightest, nope, but where did i say all(100%). Athletes are a cross section of society i would hazard a guess. Some brighter than others, but i did not say that dopers are lacking intelligence.

Where did i say doping = weak?

The world is beyond help. Mans greed knows no bounds.

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

For me doping is weak. Please exchange "weak" with a word to your liking...
I say dopers lack intelligence. The dumbest (known) dopers are certainly Manzano and Gianetti. It needs a emty brain to be used like a slave and still go on after being half death...
Gianetti... oh my... I wonder how this guy made it trou life. Doping with uncontrolled/untested "plastic" blood. If he ever does a IQ test, it may not reach 30...
If someone tells this two morons jumping from a bridge helps your bike racing, they´d have done it.
A close 3rd is TH. I like that guy. But after one life threatening botched transfusion, every half intelligent guy would hhave said: OK, that´s it. Over and out. Right now. But he keeps going on transfusing. Grotesque.

Anyway, there are brighter guys like Järmann. Fully aware of risks. Having a hard time deciding between keeping the job and thus dope, or quit. In the end he took Epo, as least as possible, no other stuff. A compromise.
Bassons. Great guy. Only mistake was making enemys. If he hadn´t spoke out, he could have had a nice career clean (his results speak for that)...

 

[pmcg76]

Re: Re:

Erik Bruekink wants us to believe he had to retire early (Aged 33) because he refused to take EPO......

from his wiki page "In 1993, Breukink switched to the ONCE team, where his performance improved again"...

Riders telling lies. Now there's a new one.......

Yes, lets rely on a wiki page for inrefutable accuracy on something. Your cluelessness never ceases to amaze.

Breukink finished 3rd/2nd/4th in the 87/88/89 Giros. He won a stage in his first Tour 87 and won the White Jersey at the 88 Tour despite having one awful day in the mountains(he was in a group with Malcolm Elliott at one point). Otherwise he was a genuine podium contender. He was 3rd in the 1990 Tour and was heavily tipped to win in 1991 and was living up to that billing until the PDM affair. He came back to finish 7th at the 92 Tour but after that his best GT result with ONCE was 7th at the 93 Vuelta, in fact his only GT result of note thereafter.

The further into the EPO era, the worse his GT results got so his claim actually holds up except a lot of people would claim he was already on EPO from his PDM days 1990, but he already had the results to show his potential before then without the EPO. If Breukink was on EPO, it was before his ONCE days or otherwise it had very little benefit for him so either way, it could be said it destroyed his career.

Good man Paddy.

Thats all you got, really. Must be hard to be shown up time and again and have no real comeback other than lame insults.

You name is not Paddy? Well Good man Paul, Peter, Paraic, Pat, Phil......As for insults, pot kettle. Reread your 2nd last rant against me.

Too point to the new clean generation of riders, Armstrong was out riding with Hincapies team t'other day....go figure. Bet he was telling them, "don't dope like me.."

Any insults I post are usually tied to the criticism of your posts , not just random insults. There is a very obvious disticntion.

Now how exactly did we get from Erik Breukink to Lance riding with the Hincapie team, another attempt at chaning the point after being shown up again.

 

[Benotti69]

Thread is about if there was one clean rider. Breukink is in the news after his claims about not taking EPO. I put it here for people to see.

Attack away.

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

Thread is about if there was one clean rider

And we have one clean rider (Bassons), one almost clean (Mottet), two widely accepted as being clean (Casar, Moncoutie), a rider clean in his late years (Gerdemann), and certainly more unidentified brave guys.
And since there were clean riders even in the darkest era, there shall be no doubt that hundrets were clean when the passport kicked in (see: changed blood parameters posted at the "sciencesports page") and before the ToC 2011 started to change everything to the bad again (but still many rode the Vuelta 2013 clean; Reasoning see my post a couple of pages ago). Sure, now we are back to (almost) early 2000s levels (see long range attacks, crazy performance jumps, literally old guys keeping up at GTs).

So how you get to your 100%-dopers-POV is still beyond me...

 

[sniper]

The curious case of...Raul Alcala.

Clean?

What is Gisbers referring to? (interview from 1990)

Gisbers:
Alcala is a talent, but his physical toughness is not ideal yet. He doesn't take care of his body enough. Maybe what I am going to say now is dangerous: in cycling, we 'prepare' our riders; in consultation with doctors we administer vitamin B to keep the metabolism going, so that you don't suffer bad day. However, Alcala doesn't want to participate in that. A pity. Still I think he is someone who can one day win the Tour de France.

QS: Did Alcala's rejection of those products have anything to do with the fact that he previously rode for an American team, where you cannot even pronounce the word doping?

Gisbers:
Are you kidding me? All Americans shout that they never use anything. But the hormones were invented in that country. Not long ago David Jenkins, British Olympic champion, claimed that in the USA per year 250 million dollar of anabolics are used in topsport every year. Those people are hypocrits.
...
http://www.nrc.nl/handelsblad/1990/07/14/millimeter-voor-millimeter-help-ik-erik-breukink-uit-6935491

Call me sceptic, but I can't imagine a Mexican climber refusing the regular blood bag and a lunch box with steroids and amphetamines. And his results and the teams he rode for also speak more or less for themselves.
Maybe Gisbers is hinting at a particular procedure or product that Alcala refused to undergo/take?

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

That kinda correlates with what the wife of Johannes Dr. said doesnt it Sniper?

You must be able to find out whether he got sick during the intrapelid affair or not, I believe the exact wordings of Gisbers/PDM were: ''everyone is sick, besides Alcala, but that is understandable, he is as tough as a Mexican streetdog''

Please correct me if I am wrong.

 

[Benotti69]

Re:

Thread is about if there was one clean rider

And we have one clean rider (Bassons), one almost clean (Mottet), two widely accepted as being clean (Casar, Moncoutie), a rider clean in his late years (Gerdemann), and certainly more unidentified brave guys.
And since there were clean riders even in the darkest era, there shall be no doubt that hundrets were clean when the passport kicked in (see: changed blood parameters posted at the "sciencesports page") and before the ToC 2011 started to change everything to the bad again (but still many rode the Vuelta 2013 clean; Reasoning see my post a couple of pages ago). Sure, now we are back to (almost) early 2000s levels (see long range attacks, crazy performance jumps, literally old guys keeping up at GTs).

So how you get to your 100%-dopers-POV is still beyond me...

I think RaceRadio doubted Moncoutie, he has his strong sources, I have always said it is 100% with the caveat that there may be a Bassons, but like Bassons you either get with the program or leave the sport. Who wants to ride with a 'Mr Clean', thinking may be this guy will snitch, or he thinks he is better than me morally?

I would love to cheer for someone who can do it clean, but there is too many in the sport who 'made' it with doping and believe doping to be part of the sport. I don't get this there are riders out there clean, maybe neo pros, but teams need performances and if you can't perform, cheerio bye bye. And how can riders perform against epo even micro dosed, plus hgh, steroids, testosterone, aicar and all those other performance enhancements never mind motors?

Sorry not buying it. Today's peloton juices.

 

[sniper]

Clean Mottet did pretty well in that 1991 TdF didn't he.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Ah, the LeMond line is getting back there.

Puhhhleeez Sniper. You bring up Alcala and switch to LeMond?

How transparent.

Getting embarrassing to be frank.

About Mottet, he got in the breaks almost every day, he was never a threat, historicly, like Hampsten.

Typical you wont go into the Alcala Draaijer stuff.

 

[sniper]

don't get so annoyed, fgl.
hadnt seen your post yet.
very interesting on alcala.
please be less cryptic in your response though.
my question was quite clear:
is Gisbers referring to EPO?

 

[sniper]

Re:

Ah, the LeMond line is getting back there.

Puhhhleeez Sniper. You bring up Alcala and switch to LeMond?


About Mottet, he got in the breaks almost every day, he was never a threat, historicly, like Hampsten.

Typical you wont go into the Alcala Draaijer stuff.

to be frank, i havent' seen you going into anything lately.
lots for you to address. Montgomery investment. 74 Olympics blood transfusions. Leusenkamp, Harvey Newman. Andersen's missed test. Eddie sending Lemond to Poland. Testa calling out Lemond.

Yu're dropping the occasional link without explanation, calling people out for being "light years behind", then you disappear again.

How transparent.

Getting embarrassing to be frank.

agreed.

 

[sniper]

Re:

That kinda correlates with what the wife of Johannes Dr. said doesnt it Sniper?

Sorry, not following. What did she say?
And with what does it correlate?

You must be able to find out whether he got sick during the intrapelid affair or not, I believe the exact wordings of Gisbers/PDM were: ''everyone is sick, besides Alcala, but that is understandable, he is as tough as a Mexican streetdog''

that's quite intriguing.
He was kept on the PDM roster for the next two years though, iinm, and got some decent results in 92. If he did that clean, that's quite astounding.
Anyway, what's your view? Did he only refuse EPO those years or you think he was clean altogether?

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Jeez Sniper, I dont have to address anything at all. Your source of Alcala not doing what Gisbers wants only acknoladges what is there to be found about one of your EPO users/deaths Johannes Draaier. And, you know me, besides this one below, I have more than one.

http://www.independent.ie/sport/other-sports/cycling/paul-kimmage-unfinished-stone-for-an-unfinished-love-30496438.html

Sources about first epo users in the peloton and jan gisbers? Perhaps Hein Verbruggen actually once was right when he called him the biggest poisoner of the sport.

 

[sniper]

Re:

...
About Mottet, he got in the breaks almost every day, he was never a threat, historicly, like Hampsten.

So who was clean in your book?

If both Hampsten and Mottet were as clean as Lemond, their stellar performances in 1991 and 1992 shed some awkward light on the narrative that Lemond couldn't keep up because EPO got widespread.

It's an important point. I've been doing some reading last couple of days and that narrative is rather widespread I can assure you. And in the eyes of the people who maintain that narrative, Hampsten and Mottet also count as clean.
It just doesn't quite add up. As a wise man once said: you can't have the cake and eat it.

 

[ScienceIsCool]

Re: Re:

...
About Mottet, he got in the breaks almost every day, he was never a threat, historicly, like Hampsten.

So who was clean in your book?

If both Hampsten and Mottet were as clean as Lemond, their stellar performances in 1991 and 1992 shed some awkward light on the narrative that Lemond couldn't keep up because EPO got widespread.

It's an important point. I've been doing some reading last couple of days and that narrative is rather widespread I can assure you. And in the eyes of the people who maintain that narrative, Hampsten and Mottet also count as clean.
It just doesn't quite add up. As a wise man once said: you can't have the cake and eat it.

Who was clean? Lemond, Bauer, Hampston, Mottet, possibly Alcala, Criquielion and a whole host of others. For those that didn't want to, there really wasn't a whole lot of pressure to dope if you were sincere about being clean because you could compete and still get results.

Transfusions did happen, but the logistics were a nightmare. You couldn't extract in January/February and reinject throughout the year as you can now. That meant injecting from a donor which is dodgy as hell. The risk of infection from something in another person's blood isn't worth the risk. Thus, it was restricted to big events with organizations that had big budgets such as national teams going to the Olympics or someone like Merckx heading into Paris Roubaix (for the record he states he was offered, but declined). The thought you'd use it constantly through the season is big-time laughable.

Also, EPO was not introduced with the flip of a switch. ON/OFF The introduction spanned several years and took just as long to become effective as regimes (timing and dosage) got worked out and knowledge spread. So even if the very first riders got hold of it in 1987 during the drug trials, it took the next six or seven years until a large percentage of the peloton was using. Even then to mixed effect. This is why guys like Ferrari came to such prominence. They dialed in how to use it effectively. That takes you to the mid-90's.

Lastly, the world of pro cycling is a small one. Everyone is "related" in one way or another. Of course a clean Alcala could ride with PDM and remain clean back then. Since a fair percentage of riders doped with amphetamins and all the other goodies meant that there was always a few dopers on your team. PDM, I think, was one of the first that started ramping up a team-wide program. Lemond was appalled enough to leave, but I'm 90+% sure he could have stayed and continued clean.

John Swanson