In any of the TDf "wins" of the LA era, would he not be the winner of the race? If dude finished 89th, but did it clean and the first 88 finishers were dopers, is he not the deserving winner of the race? This question comes on the heels of LA yet again claiming all the guys who raced in the TDF for those years would say he is the rightful winner. And for the love of dawg, would some rider from the era please step up and say they rode the whole thing clean and they are the deserving winner? Did ANY, I mean literally ANYONE race clean? I don't care if you finished 185th...you are more deserving than LA. Am I way off here?
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If there was one clean rider...
- Thread starter Energy Starr
- Start date
Didn't Hamilton claim he rode the '01 Tour clean? Although in his case it was simply not having access to the drugs, not a moral decision. He also claimed that the non-climbers on the '99 team rode clean.
I'd be pretty shocked if you couldn't find some random bottle carrier riding clean in each of the Tours past 60 editions.
I'd be pretty shocked if you couldn't find some random bottle carrier riding clean in each of the Tours past 60 editions.
Re:
It's depressing to think that those anonymous bottle carriers could be among the greatest cyclists of all time if everyone played by the rules. To survive and finish the Tour in the 90's / early 00's without any kind of doping, you had to be some kind of genetic freak.
Where did Hamilton finish in 2001? 90th? And that was while doping during training, just not during the race itself. And he was considered to be a pretty extreme natural talent. I wouldnt' be surprised if in some editions there were zero finishers that hadn't at least doped at times during trianing.
Amazinmets87 said:
It's depressing to think that those anonymous bottle carriers could be among the greatest cyclists of all time if everyone played by the rules. To survive and finish the Tour in the 90's / early 00's without any kind of doping, you had to be some kind of genetic freak.
Where did Hamilton finish in 2001? 90th? And that was while doping during training, just not during the race itself. And he was considered to be a pretty extreme natural talent. I wouldnt' be surprised if in some editions there were zero finishers that hadn't at least doped at times during trianing.
Ask Di Luca.
If 10% in a GT is/was clean, it's because that 10% is/was preparing for other races.
Anyway, it's a good question. You'd expect clean riders, if there were any, to be more vocal and step up.
If 10% in a GT is/was clean, it's because that 10% is/was preparing for other races.
Anyway, it's a good question. You'd expect clean riders, if there were any, to be more vocal and step up.
Re: Re:
You're right - I was getting mixed up with Landis.
I'm not sure about Hamilton, but if you believe the timeline in his book, he still had some very good results (for a clean rider in that era) before he started doping. Perhaps not a genetic freak, but still naturally talented - at least compared with many of the European riders who were doping from their mid-teens.
del1962 said:
You're right - I was getting mixed up with Landis.
I'm not sure about Hamilton, but if you believe the timeline in his book, he still had some very good results (for a clean rider in that era) before he started doping. Perhaps not a genetic freak, but still naturally talented - at least compared with many of the European riders who were doping from their mid-teens.
Jörg Jaksche Tour de France 1999. He stopped doping prior to the Tour de Suisse. He was 80th in GC. In the other years he finished in the top 20. I'm inclined to believe him because he was very open about his doping and completely broke the omerta.
Re:
The problem is though that his previous doping would still have affected his performance. If he stopped before the Tour de Suisse, he still had around six months of training and racing in that season while doping. All the enhanced recovery and breaking training plateaus during that time is still going to give him a significant advantage compared with a rider that never doped. It would be difficult to consider him a clean winner in those circumstances.
thequestionmark said:
The problem is though that his previous doping would still have affected his performance. If he stopped before the Tour de Suisse, he still had around six months of training and racing in that season while doping. All the enhanced recovery and breaking training plateaus during that time is still going to give him a significant advantage compared with a rider that never doped. It would be difficult to consider him a clean winner in those circumstances.
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And failed to follow up on it when asked for more info. He basically just repeated some of the arguments that had already been addressed in the Moncoutié thread.Benotti69 said:
Re: Re:
Or it may very well be the best cycling achievment of the century. We will never know
Benotti69 said:
Or it may very well be the best cycling achievment of the century. We will never know
In which case you didn't need Race Radio to say anything.
Santi Blanco was singled out as being clean by Manzano, and he has a couple of GT stage wins and top 15 placings.
Santi Blanco was singled out as being clean by Manzano, and he has a couple of GT stage wins and top 15 placings.
Re: Re:
Yes, i think we can know. I don't think a guy who rode for 15+ years clean would accept that he was the rightful winner of these races but due to others cheating he never got his just rewards! Sorry I don't believe a competitor can accept that, it goes against the idea of competition. Moncoutie was a competitor, wanted to win.
@NL_LeMondFans said:Benotti69 said:
Or it may very well be the best cycling achievment of the century. We will never know
Yes, i think we can know. I don't think a guy who rode for 15+ years clean would accept that he was the rightful winner of these races but due to others cheating he never got his just rewards! Sorry I don't believe a competitor can accept that, it goes against the idea of competition. Moncoutie was a competitor, wanted to win.
Re:
Alberto was just doing the Giro as prep for the Tour. He must be in the cleans 10%
sniper said:
Alberto was just doing the Giro as prep for the Tour. He must be in the cleans 10%
1. Winning clean, even to an athlete who knows he's racing clean against a field of dirty dopers, still means finishing first and proving that you can.
2. What would be the point of ending 37th on GC and declaring yourself the victor by virtue of the fact you're the only one who was clean in the top 50? Who believes a pro cyclist when he declares his cleansliness, and who attends the press conference of the 37th place finisher declaring himself the victor whether days, weeks, or years after the race?
3. Throwing the trophy in hopes it will hit a clean rider is not substitute for the lifetime bans that have been handed out to way too few individuals.
4. I believe Hamilton claimed his greatest talent was his ability to endure pain, which made him the ultimate superduperdomestique, but did not suggest either the talent or discipline for GT top step.
2. What would be the point of ending 37th on GC and declaring yourself the victor by virtue of the fact you're the only one who was clean in the top 50? Who believes a pro cyclist when he declares his cleansliness, and who attends the press conference of the 37th place finisher declaring himself the victor whether days, weeks, or years after the race?
3. Throwing the trophy in hopes it will hit a clean rider is not substitute for the lifetime bans that have been handed out to way too few individuals.
4. I believe Hamilton claimed his greatest talent was his ability to endure pain, which made him the ultimate superduperdomestique, but did not suggest either the talent or discipline for GT top step.
Re: Re:
Did you read his book ? He seems to be a very, very strange man. A little bit "out there", you know. He doesn't qualify, to me, as a fierce competitor. Sure he wanted to do great things but destroying the opposition wasn't his thing.
I also think that, in order to survive clean in those years (say, mid 90's to mid 00's), you had to get closure, somehow. Find a way to make sense of all of this.
I just don't believe in the 100% dopers theory. There had to be some clean guys in there too. And those guys were treated as dopers by the general public, while not getting any of the laurels the dopers got. it requires closure, definitely.
You know, the tragedy of the clean rider is that he cannot prove he was clean. In fact, dopers count on that for their defense.
Benotti69 said:
Did you read his book ? He seems to be a very, very strange man. A little bit "out there", you know. He doesn't qualify, to me, as a fierce competitor. Sure he wanted to do great things but destroying the opposition wasn't his thing.
I also think that, in order to survive clean in those years (say, mid 90's to mid 00's), you had to get closure, somehow. Find a way to make sense of all of this.
I just don't believe in the 100% dopers theory. There had to be some clean guys in there too. And those guys were treated as dopers by the general public, while not getting any of the laurels the dopers got. it requires closure, definitely.
You know, the tragedy of the clean rider is that he cannot prove he was clean. In fact, dopers count on that for their defense.
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