If there was one clean rider...

[Libertine Seguros]

Re: Re:

Wasn´t Moncoutie also a "bad" descender?

Appalling. Almost Basso-level bad early in his career.

 

[Billie]

Re: Re:

Wasn´t Moncoutie also a "bad" descender?

Appalling. Almost Basso-level bad early in his career.

Thought he only became this atrocious descender after that awful crash in Romandie?

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Re: Re:

Wasn´t Moncoutie also a "bad" descender?

Appalling. Almost Basso-level bad early in his career.

Thought he only became this atrocious descender after that awful crash in Romandie?

Early in his career his handling was so bad he had to stop and put his feet down in order to put on or take off a rain jacket.

Legend.

 

[Energy Starr]

Does everybody think EVERY frigging rider doped? EVERY single one? I guess I've always thought there has to be 5, 10, 20, 50 clean riders in each tour. Am I that far off? Am I alone in thinking some people were/are clean?

 

[Energy Starr]

Re:

Although it would be fun if Cyclingnews or one of the publications did a feature on trying to find the first clean rider of each tour and actually asked riders to nominate themselves as the winner it doesn't really work like that. Outside the top 10 or so the riders are not racing for position or time necessarily. They are not competiting against others in the way that the Top guys are. If there were 2 clean riders in the 2005 tour (bit of a stretch I know). Whoever of the two ended up with the higher placing was probably more circumstance rather than as a result of a competition between the two. If I was the one who finished in front I don't think I'd feel like the winner even if I knew I was the first clean rider. I wild feel proud of what I'd done however.

Good points. I hadn't thought of it in that way before.

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

Re:

Does everybody think EVERY frigging rider doped? EVERY single one? I guess I've always thought there has to be 5, 10, 20, 50 clean riders in each tour. Am I that far off? Am I alone in thinking some people were/are clean?

Well, if you read juust a couple of the prior posts, you´d know the answer. I mean no one asks you to read the whole thread... but a little of it if joining the discussion isn´t asked too much, right?

 

[Energy Starr]

Re: Re:

Does everybody think EVERY frigging rider doped? EVERY single one? I guess I've always thought there has to be 5, 10, 20, 50 clean riders in each tour. Am I that far off? Am I alone in thinking some people were/are clean?

Well, if you read juust a couple of the prior posts, you´d know the answer. I mean no one asks you to read the whole thread... but a little of it if joining the discussion isn´t asked too much, right?

I read it..that post was somewhat rhetorical, somewhat disbelief, that's all.

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

Ahh I think some guys are overly cynical inthe clinic... Otoh, the majority of cycling fans, critics, insiders, riders themselves know and believe that there are competitive riders out there doing the job clean, as it always was. And do it successful.

 

[skippythepinhead]

Re:

Does everybody think EVERY frigging rider doped? EVERY single one? I guess I've always thought there has to be 5, 10, 20, 50 clean riders in each tour. Am I that far off? Am I alone in thinking some people were/are clean?

You've become lost looking at the trees while missing the forest. There's no way absent concrete evidence or confession/testimony to say for certain which rider doped/how much/when. Although debate continues on individual riders, I don't know how many times or different ways I can say this: THIS IS THE CLINIC. IT IS THE ONLY FORUM WHERE DISCUSSION OF DOPING IS PERMITTED. IF YOU WANT TO TALK ABOUT CLEAN RIDERS THERE ARE ABUNDANT THREADS ELSEWHERE.

(Also, and this isn't necessarily for you, just a reminder that if you quote Foxy's posts I have to see them.)

Here's the forest: the system is completely rotten. The Biopassport is a joke and riders who want to dope know how to evade. Therapeutic use exemptions might as well be PED scripts, they achieve the same effect. Sanctions are weak, doping enablers continue to own and run teams and national associations. Race organizers are also complicit by making grand tour courses which demand riders dope in order to simply finish. There are a bunch of etceteras, read through some threads...

I cant speak for every poster, but I don't believe every rider from every team used EPO between 1997-8 and the present, just as I don't think every rider in the past used amphetamines. I do know that performances that seem unnatural usually are. From that standpoint, precious few and maybe no riders in the top 10-15 of grand tours for the past twenty years (plus others) have raced clean.

 

[HiroAntagonist]

Man, that Wiggins pic always makes me cringe, like some of the chicken photos. Anyway, on topic I'm pretty confident there have been clean riders in every edition, but in the big guns probably not. Money, pressure and legacy are as bad as idle hands.

 

[Tonton]

Re:

Pierrick Fédrigo was 29th in 2006, 32nd in 2008 and 48th in 2012.

Race Radio popped up with a two word post on Moncoutié (the words were "sadly, no") - hardly "calling him out" per se. But when pressed to explain why they had said this, they were extremely evasive and vague, saying that they'd spoken to people (none of whom were named) and heard things (none of which were specified) and they'd explained very clearly how they'd come to their opinion and it was pointless trying to hold a sensible discussion on the board so they wouldn't be elaborating. If what was said had come from a poster with less cache than Race Radio, it would have been rejected as baseless, if not an attempt at trolling (this was also around about the same time RR was defending Sky in the 2013 Tour as plausible, which caused quite a bit of friction; had it come from a poster like Joachim or mastersracer, it would definitely have been dismissed as such). I don't really see that Moncoutié would have needed to be doping to achieve the majority of his palmarès, including the Vuelta KOM jerseys. He won his four stages from the break, and picked his stages well. He didn't win those jerseys outclimbing the likes of Valverde, Mosquera and Evans, he won them by targeting a stage, outclimbing the likes of Montaguti, García da Peña and Martínez from the break and then taking leftover points where available. His tendency to sit on the back of the bunch meant he'd often lose time and was no threat overall, so the heads of state were happy for him to go for the points.

Agree. I give him the benefit of the doubt. He raced smart, never posted mutant times on climbs, got his bad days. What could have been seems to be the bigger question...

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Re:

David Moncoutié. 13th in the 2002 TDF.

raceradio called out Moncoutie before.

And failed to follow up on it when asked for more info. He basically just repeated some of the arguments that had already been addressed in the Moncoutié thread.

I Dont believe anyone can finish top 50 clean over 3 weeks.

So you believe Lemond doped trou-out his GT career?

Either way, if Mottet can finish 4th clean, why shall clean Moncutie not finish 13th? Further how do you know that when Bassons left the peloton, he was the lone clean one?
How about Casar? Not every clean rider wrote newspaper articles, as not every non-corrupt integer politican loves to be in the spotlight.

Not everybody is evil Mr Benotti...

Did i call anyone evil? Retract that comment!

I doubt LeMond rode clean, I used to think he was one of the few to have won clean. Now, I doubt it. He only had a problem with Armstrong's doping it appears. He has no problem with Pantani, Indurain, Hinault, Merckx, Flecha, Nibali, etc etc etc....

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Re:

[quote="
And failed to follow up on it when asked for more info. He basically just repeated some of the arguments that had already been addressed in the Moncoutié thread.

I Dont believe anyone can finish top 50 clean over 3 weeks.

So you believe Lemond doped trou-out his GT career?

Either way, if Mottet can finish 4th clean, why shall clean Moncutie not finish 13th? Further how do you know that when Bassons left the peloton, he was the lone clean one?
How about Casar? Not every clean rider wrote newspaper articles, as not every non-corrupt integer politican loves to be in the spotlight.

Not everybody is evil Mr Benotti...

Of course Benotti thinks Greg LeMond doped. It's his view, which I disagree with it, that pretty much everyone on the peloton dopes, let alone those high achievers.

There is a misperception that only those winning are doping. Hmmm. We have plenty of examples of people who did not win doping. Stephen Swart, Paul Kimmage, Li Fuyu, Frankie Andreu and loads more(see dopeology.org).

 

[Benotti69]

Re:

Pierrick Fédrigo was 29th in 2006, 32nd in 2008 and 48th in 2012.

Race Radio popped up with a two word post on Moncoutié (the words were "sadly, no") - hardly "calling him out" per se. But when pressed to explain why they had said this, they were extremely evasive and vague, saying that they'd spoken to people (none of whom were named) and heard things (none of which were specified) and they'd explained very clearly how they'd come to their opinion and it was pointless trying to hold a sensible discussion on the board so they wouldn't be elaborating. If what was said had come from a poster with less cache than Race Radio, it would have been rejected as baseless, if not an attempt at trolling (this was also around about the same time RR was defending Sky in the 2013 Tour as plausible, which caused quite a bit of friction; had it come from a poster like Joachim or mastersracer, it would definitely have been dismissed as such). I don't really see that Moncoutié would have needed to be doping to achieve the majority of his palmarès, including the Vuelta KOM jerseys. He won his four stages from the break, and picked his stages well. He didn't win those jerseys outclimbing the likes of Valverde, Mosquera and Evans, he won them by targeting a stage, outclimbing the likes of Montaguti, García da Peña and Martínez from the break and then taking leftover points where available. His tendency to sit on the back of the bunch meant he'd often lose time and was no threat overall, so the heads of state were happy for him to go for the points.

I think you will find Richard Virenque did something similar to win KOMs jerseys in July.

 

[hrotha]

No matter who you're talking of, you'll always find dopers with a comparable or worse performance. That really doesn't tell us much. It all depends on two largely unknown variants: 1) Moncoutié's natural talent compared to his competitors, and 2) Exactly how big of a boost the kind of doping prevalent at the time provided - and I'd like to emphasize this isn't a constant.

Ultimately, Race Radio's argument as presented here amounted to "he was too good to be clean". A perfectly fine and reasonable argument to make, but don't expect everybody else to agree if their reasoned assessment of (1) and especially (2) is different from yours. In other words, you won't sway anyone by pointing out Moncoutié's results - you'd need to show those results couldn't be accomplished without doping.

 

[@NL_LeMondFans]

Re: Re:

[
I doubt LeMond rode clean, I used to think he was one of the few to have won clean. Now, I doubt it. He only had a problem with Armstrong's doping it appears. He has no problem with Pantani, Indurain, Hinault, Merckx, Flecha, Nibali, etc etc etc....

Correction : Greg always said he believed the riders were the first victims of doping. His problems with Armstrong are : bullying, hurting his business, defamation, using "cancer awareness" to hide/profit/misinform... and so forth. Doping is the least of Armstrong's misdeeds.

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Re:

[
I doubt LeMond rode clean, I used to think he was one of the few to have won clean. Now, I doubt it. He only had a problem with Armstrong's doping it appears. He has no problem with Pantani, Indurain, Hinault, Merckx, Flecha, Nibali, etc etc etc....

Correction : Greg always said he believed the riders were the first victims of doping. His problems with Armstrong are : bullying, hurting his business, defamation, using "cancer awareness" to hide/profit/misinform... and so forth. Doping is the least of Armstrong's misdeeds.

Vino is no longer a rider. Vino is now an enabler, yet LeMond no problem talking to him at last years TdF!

Merkcx is also an enabler, who introduced Armstrong to Ferrari? Merckx did. LeMond no problem with Merckx!

Riders who were the 1st victims go on to become enablers. Riis, Merckx, Vino etc etc.....Again LeMond doesn't seem to have a problem with these guys.

 

[Escarabajo]

Talking to BenottiIt is a waste of time. His logic is weird, is there is any. He just keeps repeating the same without giving sound explanations.

 

[Taxus4a]

Re: Re:

Pierrick Fédrigo was 29th in 2006, 32nd in 2008 and 48th in 2012.

Race Radio popped up with a two word post on Moncoutié (the words were "sadly, no") - hardly "calling him out" per se. But when pressed to explain why they had said this, they were extremely evasive and vague, saying that they'd spoken to people (none of whom were named) and heard things (none of which were specified) and they'd explained very clearly how they'd come to their opinion and it was pointless trying to hold a sensible discussion on the board so they wouldn't be elaborating. If what was said had come from a poster with less cache than Race Radio, it would have been rejected as baseless, if not an attempt at trolling (this was also around about the same time RR was defending Sky in the 2013 Tour as plausible, which caused quite a bit of friction; had it come from a poster like Joachim or mastersracer, it would definitely have been dismissed as such). I don't really see that Moncoutié would have needed to be doping to achieve the majority of his palmarès, including the Vuelta KOM jerseys. He won his four stages from the break, and picked his stages well. He didn't win those jerseys outclimbing the likes of Valverde, Mosquera and Evans, he won them by targeting a stage, outclimbing the likes of Montaguti, García da Peña and Martínez from the break and then taking leftover points where available. His tendency to sit on the back of the bunch meant he'd often lose time and was no threat overall, so the heads of state were happy for him to go for the points.

Wasn´t Moncoutie also a "bad" descender? Add in the über-doped opposition, and you have a guy who really got screwed (like Casar, Bassons, Delion, and certainly many others).

Whatever. In the real world, it´s obvious that the peloton wasn´t and isn´t now 100% on drugs and transfusions as Benotti likes to have it seen.

Of course Benotti thinks Greg LeMond doped. It's his view, which I disagree with it, that pretty much everyone on the peloton dopes, let alone those high achievers.

I thought Lemond is the only rider he considers as clean. Which ofc would be contradictory to his post that no one within the first 50 could do a GT clean...

Or he meant Lemond was clean when he finished that Giro 120something...

even in the dark era, when doping was an apreciate advantage, and mist od the riders didnt care about other question very importatnt in cycling, but doping, even in that era, you could be at 10 minutes of the winner in a GT.

You has just to redl Hamilton book, very good book, to realize about that.

But there are a lot of ignorant people and will go the same for a long time, for sure.

 

[@NL_LeMondFans]

Re: Re:

[
I doubt LeMond rode clean, I used to think he was one of the few to have won clean. Now, I doubt it. He only had a problem with Armstrong's doping it appears. He has no problem with Pantani, Indurain, Hinault, Merckx, Flecha, Nibali, etc etc etc....

Correction : Greg always said he believed the riders were the first victims of doping. His problems with Armstrong are : bullying, hurting his business, defamation, using "cancer awareness" to hide/profit/misinform... and so forth. Doping is the least of Armstrong's misdeeds.

Vino is no longer a rider. Vino is now an enabler, yet LeMond no problem talking to him at last years TdF!

Merkcx is also an enabler, who introduced Armstrong to Ferrari? Merckx did. LeMond no problem with Merckx!

Riders who were the 1st victims go on to become enablers. Riis, Merckx, Vino etc etc.....Again LeMond doesn't seem to have a problem with these guys.

Are you unable to talk with guys you have "problems" with ?

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

Re: Re:

raceradio called out Moncoutie before.

And failed to follow up on it when asked for more info. He basically just repeated some of the arguments that had already been addressed in the Moncoutié thread.[/quote]

I Dont believe anyone can finish top 50 clean over 3 weeks.[/quote]

So you believe Lemond doped trou-out his GT career?

Either way, if Mottet can finish 4th clean, why shall clean Moncutie not finish 13th? Further how do you know that when Bassons left the peloton, he was the lone clean one?
How about Casar? Not every clean rider wrote newspaper articles, as not every non-corrupt integer politican loves to be in the spotlight.

Not everybody is evil Mr Benotti...[/quote]

Did i call anyone evil? Retract that comment!

I doubt LeMond rode clean, I used to think he was one of the few to have won clean. Now, I doubt it. He only had a problem with Armstrong's doping it appears. He has no problem with Pantani, Indurain, Hinault, Merckx, Flecha, Nibali, etc etc etc....[/quote]

I didnt want to offend you. Just lack a better word. I understand your position. Fully accept it, but dont agree though.
So I apologize if the word offended you.

P.S.: Sorry for the mish-mash quotes. But there are only 5 urls allowed (yet the forum auto quotes all irrelevant older posts. Watta farce ), so I had to shorten the post.

Thanks to the computer nerds leaving the job to "improve" this forum un-finished.

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Re:

[
I doubt LeMond rode clean, I used to think he was one of the few to have won clean. Now, I doubt it. He only had a problem with Armstrong's doping it appears. He has no problem with Pantani, Indurain, Hinault, Merckx, Flecha, Nibali, etc etc etc....

Correction : Greg always said he believed the riders were the first victims of doping. His problems with Armstrong are : bullying, hurting his business, defamation, using "cancer awareness" to hide/profit/misinform... and so forth. Doping is the least of Armstrong's misdeeds.

Vino is no longer a rider. Vino is now an enabler, yet LeMond no problem talking to him at last years TdF!

Merkcx is also an enabler, who introduced Armstrong to Ferrari? Merckx did. LeMond no problem with Merckx!

Riders who were the 1st victims go on to become enablers. Riis, Merckx, Vino etc etc.....Again LeMond doesn't seem to have a problem with these guys.

Are you unable to talk with guys you have "problems" with ?

Nope. But LeMond is, by talking with them and not pointing out their doping pasts, giving them his 'seal of approval'.

LeMond never said, Armstrong's doping was not the problem but it is other things that are! I don't recall reading LeMond calling LiveWrong a fraud, got a link? Also it was not Armstrong who damaged LeMond's bike business, it was Trek who backed Armstrong over LeMond. LeMond took Trek to court IIRC.

I agree that Armstrong's doping was the least of it, but it was also the reason for the bullying etc etc..it all stemmed because he doped.

I dont want this thread to get sidetracked into a LeMond thread, we have them or a Moncoutie thread, we have one on him as well IIRC.

If there was one clean rider........i doubt the 2 above.

 

[sniper]

I think for a rider to be clean, you either have to be very mentally determined and disciplined from the start (such as that young Newzealander who blogged about how he got offered PEDs in Italy, refused, and decided to head back home), or you have to have had some very nasty experience with doping a la Jesus Manzano.

 

[carton]

Re: Re:

I don't recall reading LeMond calling LiveWrong a fraud, got a link?

I think you know the quote. That he only implied it and not out and out slandered (had he gone any further he would've gotten convicted of slander) Armstrong, that's the hill you want to make your stand on?

‘If Lance is clean, it’s the greatest comeback in the history of sports. If he isn’t it would be the greatest fraud.’

He said that in '99 after he became aware that Ferrari was Armstrong's doctor. It cost him his business, which was his passion, his livelihood an his kids financial security; his supposed friends, who shunned him; and his privacy, with Armstrong exposing his most awful memory to the world. WTF have you risked in your anti-doping crusade?

Nope. But LeMond is, by talking with them and not pointing out their doping pasts, giving them his 'seal of approval'.

So he's not even now not supposed to make a living by talking to these guys? Vino is the manager of Astana. Them's the apples. LeMond has said you need to get guys like him out of the sport. But he is the DS of the team that had two riders on the podium of this years biggest race to date. LeMond hosts a cycling show. He still not as popular as guys like Ligget, but he's trying to make a go of it. How is he supposed not to talk to the guy?

Honestly, I sometimes wonder if guys like you really want to turn the sport over exclusively to the worst of the dopers, just so you can scream harder and point fingers more snidely.

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Re:

I don't recall reading LeMond calling LiveWrong a fraud, got a link?

I think you know the quote. That he only implied it and not out and out slandered (had he gone any further he would've gotten convicted of slander) Armstrong, that's the hill you want to make your stand on?

‘If Lance is clean, it’s the greatest comeback in the history of sports. If he isn’t it would be the greatest fraud.’

He said that in '99 after he became aware that Ferrari was Armstrong's doctor. It cost him his business, which was his passion, his livelihood an his kids financial security; his supposed friends, who shunned him; and his privacy, with Armstrong exposing his most awful memory to the world. WTF have you risked in your anti-doping crusade?

Nope. But LeMond is, by talking with them and not pointing out their doping pasts, giving them his 'seal of approval'.

So he's not even now not supposed to make a living by talking to these guys? Vino is the manager of Astana. Them's the apples. LeMond has said you need to get guys like him out of the sport. But he is the DS of the team that had two riders on the podium of this years biggest race to date. LeMond hosts a cycling show. He still not as popular as guys like Ligget, but he's trying to make a go of it. How is he supposed not to talk to the guy?


So Greg LeMond is a millionaire, but he has to make a livelihood for his adult kids???? I dont think so. He can sell bikes without getting into the realms of hypocrisy. Plenty do. Andy Hampsten being one.

Honestly, I sometimes wonder if guys like you really want to turn the sport over exclusively to the worst of the dopers, just so you can scream harder and point fingers more snidely.

I will repeat what i have said many times in here. Doping(cheating) has been part of the fabric of cycling culture from the 1st TdF. It will take a monumental change to break that culture. I have no seen anything that would begin to make me believe that those in the sport have taken this big step from doping to clean cycling. LeMond is not progressing any kind of change at present. He is at the moment trying to sell bikes.

Guys like me? I want to see honest competitive pro cycling. Do you have a problem with that?