If there was one clean rider...

[ScienceIsCool]

As a follow-up, you really have to think about it as though you're in the 80's.

NO INTERNET

Any publications are in print and need to be ordered for $$$

Researchers probably new of EPO R&B efforts in the early 80's via conferences, etc. Same for the trials that started in 86. So yeah, someone well connected could have learned about and procured EPO by 86-87 if they were well connected to someone who was immoral to the point they'd risk someone's life/health and their career for a few bucks. And no, I don't believe for a second that Weisel would jeopardize his enormous investments for a few tens of thousands from Greg Freaking LeMond.

But it did get out and guys started using it. My guess is that it was more likely experimental stuff coming from European labs where it was being studied but not in trials. This would fit with small pockets of athletes in speed skating and then cyclists in Belgium getting their hands on it - possibly through a university.(affiliated with R&D efforts).

Now imagine you're a pro rider of any caliber you can imagine and that it's 1987. Or even 1989/1990. You've heard rumours of EPO and you want to try it out. How exactly are you going to do that. Remember - no internet. Team doctors weren't such a huge thing back then. Soigneurs were. You wanted to try "pot belge"? No problem. They go down to the nearest gym or what have you and you're set. Very discreet. Doctors were actually used for doctor stuff like infections. So how exactly are you going to get some? Your doctor, depending how "up" they are on the latest probably know the fundamentals of EPO. Are they then going to write a scrip for a few hundred doses for the team? Uh, no.

So it took time for EPO to be introduced and spread into the peleton. It fits that it took until 93 for it to be widespread and became a "must-have" to compete. Possibly even later as it took time to refine the dosing schedule.

John Swanson

 

[blackcat]

Re:

But it did get out and guys started using it. My guess is that it was more likely experimental stuff coming from European labs where it was being studied but not in trials. This would fit with small pockets of athletes in speed skating and then cyclists in Belgium getting their hands on it - possibly through a university.(affiliated with R&D efforts).

Now imagine you're a pro rider of any caliber you can imagine and that it's 1987. Or even 1989/1990. You've heard rumours of EPO and you want to try it out. How exactly are you going to do that. Remember - no internet. Team doctors weren't such a huge thing back then. Soigneurs were. You wanted to try "pot belge"? No problem. They go down to the nearest gym or what have you and you're set. Very discreet. Doctors were actually used for doctor stuff like infections. So how exactly are you going to get some? Your doctor, depending how "up" they are on the latest probably know the fundamentals of EPO. Are they then going to write a scrip for a few hundred doses for the team? Uh, no.

So it took time for EPO to be introduced and spread into the peleton. It fits that it took until 93 for it to be widespread and became a "must-have" to compete. Possibly even later as it took time to refine the dosing schedule.

John Swanson

John, incorrect premise. The EPO erythropoeitin epogen you are quoting, first gen epo 87-93 was not the EPO the board and international sport now recognise as the gamechanger. Then it was merely another pharmacy in the arsenal of PEDs.

So the EPO (86-91) should be EPO* asterisk, asterisk epo. You have conferred a value and quality on EPO, that no one could place in any context, it was only thru the heuristic, that we can discern the definition of EPO.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

This piece might be of some help:

http://www.zeit.de/2005/27/Tour_27

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

good post, appreciate it, although I disagree on many points.

...

Who was clean? Lemond, Bauer, Hampston, Mottet, possibly Alcala, Criquielion and a whole host of others. For those that didn't want to, there really wasn't a whole lot of pressure to dope if you were sincere about being clean because you could compete and still get results.

First off, Mottet wasn't clean. He admitted to using amphetamines. A one-time thing? I doubt it.
http://archive.wikiwix.com/cache/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ecoutedopage.fr%2Fcas-dopage%2Fsilence-dans-rangs-une-seule-fois-89-102-11-731.html

Hampsten in my mind certainly wasn't clean in 1992, when he was doing a winter preparation with Max Testa in Como on the border with Switzerland (Hampsten's place of residence throughout his carreer) where EPO was available without prescription and where, indeed, the entire Motorola gang would go in 1994 to fetch their ampules on Testa's advice (Swart testimony). Hampsten's results in 1992 speak for themselves. The way he bulked up in 92 is also suspicious, but let's stick to the blood boosting, which is really tough to deny for that year. Now, I'm having trouble imagining why he would have been clean in 88 with Testa, or in 86...with Testa. Testa is an exposed doping doc, and you really going to have to explain to me why you think he wasn't helping Hampsten (and others at 7-11) with 'marginal gains' in 86 and 88. I think Mike Neel was perfectly aware whom he brought in when he hired Testa in 85. Prior to that appointment, Testa had already done physiological testing with various Italian cracks including Argentin.

Scienceiscool:
Transfusions did happen, but the logistics were a nightmare. You couldn't extract in January/February and reinject throughout the year as you can now. That meant injecting from a donor which is dodgy as hell. The risk of infection from something in another person's blood isn't worth the risk.

Not worth the risk to you, maybe, but certainly worth the risk to cyclists aspiring to become pro. Hell, even worth the risk to amateur cyclists. And hell, even worth the risk to their ambitious parents. Section from Wheelmen (but could've taken this from any other source) about 84:

The US team, however, went ahead with the blood-boosting effort. Participation in the program was voluntary. If they were interested, they were to arrange for family members with compatible blood types to provide the blood donations. A few days before the Olympic track cycling events, the cyclists and their blood donors lined up in a room at the Ramada hotel in Carson City, and a doctor connected tubes between them, allowing the blood to flow directly from one to the other.

Come to think of it, which GT rider was in the habit of bringing his parents to GTs? Just saying...

Scienceiscool:
Thus, it was restricted to big events with organizations that had big budgets such as national teams going to the Olympics or someone like Merckx heading into Paris Roubaix (for the record he states he was offered, but declined).

Anquetil and Zoetemelk are two riders of whom we know they were using different methods of blood boosting for GTs. That's early to late 70s. So you're clutching at straws when you're suggesting blood boosting wasn't done during GTs in the 80s. Exactly what kind of blood boosting is anyone's guess, but there were different methods by that time that had proven their worth. We're lucky that it's documented for 88. It's only plausible to assume it happened throughout the 80s.

Scienceiscool:
The thought you'd use it constantly through the season is big-time laughable.

agree.
You'd use it primarily before important one-day races and during GT rest days. And that's only for the guys with a budget. Water carriers would have to make do with less advanced procedures.

Scienceiscool:
...even if the very first riders got hold of it in 1987 during the drug trials,

For athletics and skiing the year of introduction is 1986. So for cycling 86 isn't impossible either. Lemond and Hampsten mixing it up at the TdS and TdF should ring all sorts of Sky-ish alarm bells. And as it happens, the guy responsible for taking Amgen public was a wanna be world champ masters cyclist trained by a certain Eddie B from 85 onwards. Ow, and Lemond did a nice little investment in that guy's company. Oh well.

Scienceiscool:
it took the next six or seven years until a large percentage of the peloton was using. Even then to mixed effect.

Indeed, and if you want to find users in the early period, it makes sense to look at guys with big results. Hampsten, Roche, Lemond.

Scienceiscool:
Lastly, the world of pro cycling is a small one. Everyone is "related" in one way or another. Of course a clean Alcala could ride with PDM and remain clean back then.

I doubt Alcala was clean. Seems likely that Gisbers was referring to EPO. Throughout the 70s and 80s, Mexico was the go-to place for PEDs for many Americans (see the famous David Jenkins drug ring). Mexican cyclists would have known where to find the honey, too. You gotta wonder why Alcala was the only Mexican making a breakthrough. Just doesn't make sense that he was clean. If he were, many of his doping countrymen would probably have surpassed him. Doping did make a difference you know, also in the 80s, in all sports. I trust you won't ask me to provide evidence for that.

PDM, I think, was one of the first that started ramping up a team-wide program. Lemond was appalled enough to leave

that's a weird myth. We know he had contractual issues. Sure, his lawyer said something about testosterone, but the details are unknown. You can't jump to conclusions from there. Lemond had his own doctors and a carreer-long Mexican fixer with whom he did odd ooc training sessions. In 87-88, ADR had four positives, all publicized, plus a doctor (VanMol) who'd been sent away from his previous team due to doping issues (cortisone gone wrong). If Lemond was appalled by PDM's doping program, why, of all teams, did he sign for ADR? The irony there is huge.

Another anecdote: Zoetemelk was widely known to have experimented with blood doping. IT had been written about already in the late 70s early 80s. So Lemond would've known. Yet Lemond didn't mind coming second to Zoetemelk at the 85 worlds. In Sam Abt's "Incredible Comeback" there is a paragraph dedicated to Lemond praising Zoetemelk's deserved win and his great carreer. Lemond appalled? Not really. Then you look at some of the people singled out as Lemond's 'close friends' in that period. It includes the likes of Johan Lammerts and Rini Wagtmans. Two keepers of omerta if ever there were any.


And that's disregarding all the other evidence of doping among the Americans that has surfaced. USOC providing internal testing. Eddie bringing Harvey Newton on board. I'm just cherry-picking here. Rigged testing at the Coors Classic. Blood doping among the '74 US Junior team n Poland.

And re-read Gisbers' statement about Americans and doping on the previous page.
He knew what time it was.

Talking about timing: coincidentally, this "clean americans vs. doped europeans" narrative started emerging forcefully in the mid/late 80s, after the 84 Olympics scandal had made them realize that doping really should best stay burried deeply under the carpet.

There is such a huge Sky-avant-la-lettre stink to the whole Hampsten-Lemond story, it's not funny, starting with Eddie B and his alleged introduction of 'scientific' Eastern European training methods, praised extensively by Lemond.

 

[Red Rick]

Maybe they should have a clean riders jersey in the Tour

 

[Benotti69]

Re:

Maybe they should have a clean riders jersey in the Tour

Not sure anyone would wear it.

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

...
PDM, I think, was one of the first that started ramping up a team-wide program. Lemond was appalled enough to leave

that's a weird myth. (snipped)

to cement my point:
http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/greg-lemonds-fantasy-cycling-camp/

Just saying, I don't think Lemond was appalled. It wasn't the first time he'd seen or heard about a team-wide doping program.

That said, it does strike me as plausible that Lemond (and his entourage, Kathy, David, Otto, Bob) wanted to keep full control over Lemond's program, which may explain a part of the conflict with PDM, who seem to have urged him to get on the team program. (Following the 84 scandal Lemond and the Americans were well aware what damage a positive test might do to their market value.) And there may have been additional (contractual) issues playing in the background that we never heard of.

 

[ScienceIsCool]

Re: Re:

...
PDM, I think, was one of the first that started ramping up a team-wide program. Lemond was appalled enough to leave

that's a weird myth. (snipped)

to cement my point:
http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/greg-lemonds-fantasy-cycling-camp/

Just saying, I don't think Lemond was appalled. It wasn't the first time he'd seen or heard about a team-wide doping program.

That said, it does strike me as plausible that Lemond (and his entourage, Kathy, David, Otto, Bob) wanted to keep full control over Lemond's program, which may explain a part of the conflict with PDM, who seem to have urged him to get on the team program. (Following the 84 scandal Lemond and the Americans were well aware what damage a positive test might do to their market value.) And there may have been additional (contractual) issues playing in the background that we never heard of.

What program? Give one piece of evidence (testimonial or otherwise) that Greg had a program.

Inviting your family to the Tour while you're champion does *not* mean you have an entourage. Give evidence that these people were at any other races.

Lemond's own words state that he was appalled by being pressured to dope and the doping culture at PDM. To get away from them he joined that mighty powerhouse ADR. <--- ADR was a puny, underfunded team - they don't even have a Wikipedia entry.

What does his friendship with Eddy B have to do with anything?

John Swanson

 

[djpbaltimore]

Re: Re:

Come to think of it, which GT rider was in the habit of bringing his parents to GTs? Just saying...

Not all children can receive blood from their parents. Two parents with type A can have a child with type O (that can only receive type O blood transfusions). Even so, the insinuation that his parents were glorified blood mules is one of the more outlandish suggestions that has been put forth about LeMond (and there is no shortage of qualified candidates in that respect IMO)

 

[DamianoMachiavelli]

Re: Re:

Lemond's own words state that he was appalled by being pressured to dope and the doping culture at PDM. To get away from them he joined that mighty powerhouse ADR. <--- ADR was a puny, underfunded team - they don't even have a Wikipedia entry.

Yup. To get away from PDM he joined ADR, which was injecting its riders with EPO the year before. Maybe LeMond was looking for a more progressive program. Pot belge and cortisone were obviously not going to cut it anymore.

 

[Cannibal72]

If it's acceptable to ignore the epic hijack that's taken place in this thread and actually respond to the topic, I reckon Adam Yates is clean. Seems legit.

 

[djpbaltimore]

Well Cannibal72, if TV has taught me anything, there is usually a good twin and an evil twin. Seems legit to me too!

 

[Cannibal72]

Re:

Well Cannibal72, if TV has taught me anything, there is usually a good twin and an evil twin. Seems legit to me!

And Simon wears the black sunglasses*, so Orica have even helpfully colour-coded the evil. Thoughtful of them.

*disclaimer: this is as accurate and well-researched as a viewer writing in to Carlton Kirby.

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

Lemond's own words state that he was appalled by being pressured to dope and the doping culture at PDM. To get away from them he joined that mighty powerhouse ADR. <--- ADR was a puny, underfunded team - they don't even have a Wikipedia entry.

Yup. To get away from PDM he joined ADR, which was injecting its riders with EPO the year before. Maybe LeMond was looking for a more progressive program. Pot belge and cortisone were obviously not going to cut it anymore.

It continues to amaze me to see people take stuff from the horse's mouth as fact when it comes to the question of doping. As if we haven't been lied to enough.
We might as well believe Cancellara when he swears he's appalled by motorized bikes.

Funny thing is that Lemond started to develop his 'hardline' antidoping discourse only (well) after 2001 when he was firmly on the bash-Lance bandwagon.
If I'm not mistaken, his "appalled by PDM" comments are from 2014-ish. Go figure. By 2014 the whole PDM epo/doping scheme had been laid out in great detail both in the Dutch and in the international press. What else was Lemond going to say when he was asked about it? Meanwhile, in the 90s not a word from him on PDM or on any other doper/doping for that matter.

Meanwhile, in 2010-ish, Lemond is on the record praising De Cauwer as (one of) the best managers he ever had.
De Cauwer, yes you heard me right. The guy who was indicted for his role in a drug ring in the mid-90s. The guy who throughout his carreer worked closely with Yvan Vanmol, a publicly exposed doping doc who according to Donati's report has blood on his hands. De Cauwer, who between 87 and 88 had four positives on his team. Lemond's words: "I'd go with him again".

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

What program? Give one piece of evidence (testimonial or otherwise) that Greg had a program.

I'll give you three:
1. http://postimg.org/image/vgxgqxt7f/
2. http://velonews.competitor.com/2014/09/news/storm-exclusive-interview-greg-lemond_347148#2lxDl3qoxk3tymhq.99
3. viewtopic.php?p=857481#p857481

Additionally, Boogerd, Floyd, Lance, Gisbers, Dhaenens all rumored about Lemond using EPO. You can question the credibility of those guys like it's 2010 all over again, but, really, why would you, in light of the neat fact that Lemond invested in Montgomery Investments. Another rumor has him as a client of Freddy "pot belge" Sergeant. Hardly surprising seeing how Freddy worked for De Cauwer and Vanmol. Other circumstantial evidence:
- the multiple contradictions in his own interviews about key issues;
- his multiple sicknesses (in the same league as Froome), and obviously not counting the shooting incident;
- the dramatic iron-shot improvement (which any self-respecting MD can only laugh about);
- his 1990 'preparation' for the Tour.
- his dodgy ooc training sessions with Otto Jacome (credited for being his "close friend", his "trainer" and his "masseur")
- his admiration for and longlasting friendship with known blood dopers and facilitators (especially, but not restricted to, Eddie)
- working with known doping docs/facilitators (Vanmol, Bellocq, Eddie);
- winning three TdFs against heavily doped riders from traditional cycling countries;
- his breakthrough under Eddie's tutelage in a period when doping was rampant among aspiring Olympic athletes including cyclists, aided and encouraged to dope by USOC.

Now, we can either nitpick about the meaning of the word 'evidence', or, alternatively, you can try and give me a similar amount of evidence for (one of) the following riders:
Sastre, Wiggins, Indurain, Evans, Zoetemelk, Hinault, Cancellara, Anquetil, Jens Voigt, Chioccioli and so many others of whom I'm confident we won't disagree about them being dopers.

Inviting your family to the Tour while you're champion does *not* mean you have an entourage. Give evidence that these people were at any other races.

Kathy was there, like, all the time, sometimes in a campervan...(you were saying something about the difficulties of storing blood during GTs?...). The others I mentioned were reported to be in his entourage more than once. Providing links will only clog the thread, but if you insist, let me know, and I'll come back to that. Jacome? I'd be happy to go there, but the mods will no doubt interfere.

What does his friendship with Eddy B have to do with anything?

I was just wondering how you came to the conclusion that Greg was appalled by PDM's doping scheme, but not by Eddie's, or by ADR's.

 

[gillan1969]

Re: Re:

What program? Give one piece of evidence (testimonial or otherwise) that Greg had a program.

I'll give you three:
1. http://postimg.org/image/vgxgqxt7f/
2. http://velonews.competitor.com/2014/09/news/storm-exclusive-interview-greg-lemond_347148#2lxDl3qoxk3tymhq.99
3. viewtopic.php?p=857481#p857481

Additionally, Boogerd, Floyd, Lance, Gisbers, Dhaenens all rumored about Lemond using EPO. You can discard those rumors like it's 2010 all over again, but, really, why would you, in light of the previously mentioned pieces of evidence. Another rumor has him as a client of Freddy "pot belge" Sergeant. Hardly surprising seeing how Freddy worked for De Cauwer and Vanmol. Other circumstantial evidence:
- the multiple contradictions in his own interviews about key issues;
- his multiple sicknesses (in the same league as Froome), and obviously not counting the shooting incident;
- the dramatic iron-shot improvement (which any self-respecting MD can only laugh about);
- his illness and complete and utter lack of form in 1990 preparation for the Tour.
- his dodgy ooc training sessions with Otto Jacome (credited for being his "close friend", his "trainer" and his "masseur")
- his admiration for and longlasting friendship with known blood dopers and facilitators (especially, but not restricted to, Eddie)
- working with known doping docs/facilitators (Vanmol, Bellocq, Eddie);
- winning three TdFs against heavily doped riders from traditional cycling countries;
- his breakthrough under Eddie's tutelage in a period when doping was rampant among aspiring Olympic athletes including cyclists, aided and encouraged to dope by USOC.

Now, we can either nitpick about the meaning of the word 'evidence', or, alternatively, you can try and give me a similar amount of evidence for (one of) the following riders:
Sastre, Wiggins, Indurain, Evans, Zoetemelk, Hinault, Cancellara, Anquetil, Jens Voigt, Chioccioli and so many others of whom I'm confident we won't disagree about them being dopers.

Inviting your family to the Tour while you're champion does *not* mean you have an entourage. Give evidence that these people were at any other races.

Kathy was there, like, all the time, sometimes in a campervan...(you were saying something about the difficulties of storing blood during GTs?...). The others I mentioned were reported to be in his entourage more than once. Providing links will only clog the thread, but if you insist, let me know, and I'll come back to that. Jacome? I'd be happy to go there, but the mods will no doubt interfere.

What does his friendship with Eddy B have to do with anything?

I was just wondering how you came to the conclusion that Greg was appalled by PDM's doping scheme, but not by Eddie's, or by ADR's.

so
a) rumours and rumours of rumours
b) his wife is with him
c) in your own version of events people were dying (which I don't think hey were under eddie B) which might make you question things

I'm convinced

can you name one clean team from that era? Indeed any era?

If its guilt by association you may want to spread this out from lemond to...everybody?

 

[sniper]

can you name one clean team from that era? Indeed any era?

no i can't. Which is why the null hypothesis is as it is: pretty darn solid

now then, maybe you can tell me why you're all over Shane Sutton's back with only 'rumors of rumors of rumors' to go by If I didn't know you better, I would say you're applying double standards.

 

[gillan1969]

Re:

a, b and c, that's three strawmen. Next please

can you name one clean team from that era? Indeed any era?

no i can't.
which is why the null hypothesis is as it is: pretty darn solid

as i said, we can either nitpick about the meaning of the word 'evidence', or (see post above).

so...here we are

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

you missed my edit

 

[gillan1969]

Re: Re:

you missed my edit

 

[sniper]

good, so double standards noted.

 

[gillan1969]

Re: Re:

you missed my edit

lemond has been involved with cycling since the mid 70's...the weight of evidence against is flimsy at best and from very few sources and from sources which may prove to be unreliable...and often second third and fourth hand

notwithstanding other allegations about Sutton's past regarding PEDs, the current accusations are current and strong i.e. they are by numerous witnesses going on record to national newspapers. That is the difference between strong and weak evidence

 

[gillan1969]

Re:

good, so double standards noted.

you get me hinault, koechli, madiot, boardman and any other of his 'peers' (i.e. those with standing like pendleton) to testify they saw lemond using PEds you might have a comparable case and can call me out on double standards...at the moment, it not looking good for Sutton/BC

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

Sutton has said he was appalled by the allegations. Case closed.

 

[gillan1969]

Re: Re:

Sutton has said he was appalled by the allegations. Case closed.

and some of his best friends are women