Illegal Transfusion Kit - Astana - UCI ?

[python]

small correction

the way i read the original, it also referred to 'did not see anything'.

in a way it's nice ds's did not see anything because it may help the investigators to confirm flandis' description that riders like armstrong and himself were proficient in self-administartion and helping each other with transfusions.

obviously, if they called bruyneel and gallopin, they are holding some evidence that illegal transfusions did take place.

the next shoe to drop is to learn which riders were also interviewed.

 

[nevada]

Seriously, what self respecting charger would throw dirty syringes in the official TdF garbage ? C'mon....and really, did they expect those two to fess up.

 

[Jamsque]

Criminals who don't expect to get caught often do surprisingly stupid things, and anyway I doubt it was Lance or Bruyneel throwing those bags/syringes away, more likely it was some lowly masseuse or medical assistant or something.

 

[kurtinsc]

Okay... I'm a diabetic.

I know what insulin syringes are like. They are subcutaneous... designed to be injected into fatty tissue under the skin. I've bent those needles accidentally when I've hit muscle... they aren't the sturdiest things in the world. They'd be horrible for any kind of IV injection... they really aren't long enough, thick enough or strong enough to be used that way.

Now I have no first-hand knowledge of how blood spinning works... but it sounds like the resulting mixture that is injected is very thick... I've seen it referred to as "jelly-like". This doesn't seem like something that would work very well with a small gauge needle like an insulin syringe.


So I'm going to float a very straightforward question that nobody seems to consider. I ask this also because in an image that was displayed months back of the "sharps" container that was collected, I saw blood glucose test strips.

Did anyone bother to check if there are diabetics on staff with either of these teams? Someone giving masages or a team doctor perhaps? Because quite frankly, much of what was in that image you can find in my trash. I'd hate to see what would happen if team type 1 was inspected at a big race like this... with 4-5 type 1 diabetics on their squad, their garbage might look like a doping utopia.

 

[luckyboy]

They found insulin syringes in Caisse d'Epargne's bins. They found transfusion equipment at Astana.

Unless I'm mistaken.

 

[Benotti69]

Okay... I'm a diabetic.

I...... I'd hate to see what would happen if team type 1 was inspected at a big race like this... with 4-5 type 1 diabetics on their squad, their garbage might look like a doping utopia.

i think if there is a diabetic on a team, the DS would know about it as mechanics, soigneurs are working from early to late and injecting insulin would be done around the team due to the nature of being on the bus, in the car following the race, etc....

 

[kurtinsc]

They found insulin syringes in Caisse d'Epargne's bins. They found transfusion equipment at Astana.

Unless I'm mistaken.

I can't find the image, but there is a picture that (supposedly) is one of the Astana trash bins in question. It may have had drip bags too, but it definitely had diabetic supplies as well (blood test strips and diabetic syringes).

Perhaps those ARE the syringes used for "blood spinning". They are extremely small gauge though... it's tough to imagine pushing a thick mixture through a needle like that.

They WOULD however not leave much in the way of marks, which I imagine would be a doping plus. I just can't understand blood sugar testing as part of a doping regimine... the test strips are the thing that confuses me. That's the big thing that makes me think "maybe someone is a diabetic". I'll look for the image again if I can find it.

 

[red_flanders]

They found insulin syringes in Caisse d'Epargne's bins. They found transfusion equipment at Astana.

Unless I'm mistaken.

That's how I read it. And insulin has been noted as part of a systematic doping program for some time now.

 

[Cobblestones]

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/french-investigate-caisse-depargne-over-tour-syringes

Susan

Gotta love the translation:

the French Central Office against Environmental Damage and Public Health (OCLAESP)

CN makes it as if the French hate Public Health

l’Office central de lutte contre les atteintes à l’environnement et à la santé publique (Oclaesp)

 

[luckyboy]

I can't find the image, but there is a picture that (supposedly) is one of the Astana trash bins in question. It may have had drip bags too, but it definitely had diabetic supplies as well (blood test strips and diabetic syringes).

Perhaps those ARE the syringes used for "blood spinning". They are extremely small gauge though... it's tough to imagine pushing a thick mixture through a needle like that.

They WOULD however not leave much in the way of marks, which I imagine would be a doping plus. I just can't understand blood sugar testing as part of a doping regimine... the test strips are the thing that confuses me. That's the big thing that makes me think "maybe someone is a diabetic". I'll look for the image again if I can find it.

Ah ok, never heard of/seen the photo before. It'd be good to see it.

Personally I have no idea about the syringe gauges etc.

 

[kurtinsc]

That's how I read it. And insulin has been noted as part of a systematic doping program for some time now.

Okay, I know this is an aside... but how is insulin used for doping?

As I said, I'm a diabetic, and the impact of putting extra insulin into your body does not seem like it would be beneficial in a bike race. In the short term, extra insulin will cause your blood sugar to go down. Low blood sugars result in slower synaptic activity, shakes, sluggish behavior, headaches, then eventually loss of consciousness and death. It essentially causes the same think that a "bonk" from not eating while racing would... it doesn't feel like a beneficial thing for performance.

Is it some sort of long term thing where you somehow use the injection of insulin to change how your body produces harmones naturally to give an advantage?

For me, I go the other way... I try to start athletic activity with a slightly elevated blood sugar. Excercise naturally causes the insulin in your system to work more effectively so it provides a bit more of a buffer before you bonk, plus it does produce a bit of a "sugar high"... which doesn't help at all in distance activities, but can give you a boost in a sprint.

 

[luckyboy]

Helps build muscle, improves indurance.

Insulin helps glucose enter muscle cells. If more glucose enters the cell than you need, it stimulates glycogen formation. Increases volume of glycogen & thus muscle bulk. It slows the degradation of muscle tissue, useful if you're using HgH. And it provides fuel for muscle cells - improving stamina.

There's IGF-1 too, which does pretty much the same thing.

 

[blackcat]

game is up now, charade finished.

insulin is so effective in bodybuilding and recovery endurance sport, cos it forces the glycogen back into the cells or something similar. Without the insulin, it aint as effective.

layperson here tho'... experts weigh in?

 

[rikdewy]

I can't find the image, but there is a picture that (supposedly) is one of the Astana trash bins in question. It may have had drip bags too, but it definitely had diabetic supplies as well (blood test strips and diabetic syringes).

Perhaps those ARE the syringes used for "blood spinning". They are extremely small gauge though... it's tough to imagine pushing a thick mixture through a needle like that.

They WOULD however not leave much in the way of marks, which I imagine would be a doping plus. I just can't understand blood sugar testing as part of a doping regimine... the test strips are the thing that confuses me. That's the big thing that makes me think "maybe someone is a diabetic". I'll look for the image again if I can find it.

An endurance MTB friend of mine described a process called 'glycaemic clamp' whereby insulin is used in conjunction with glucose to fully recharge the muscles with glycogen overnight. (normally not possible after several hard days according to him) The blood glucose is monitored (hence the strips) and the insulin doses are adjusted accordingly.

He said he know's of stage racers who've done it and insulin is undetectable. I have always taken this story with a grain of salt, but do you think it's possible?

Perhaps the syringes are being used for insulin after all... just it's not by diabetics.

Edit: Its seems I've been beaten to the punch... (by the two above... at least I have my answer! wanna sell me some insulin?? hehe)

 

[red_flanders]

Okay, I know this is an aside... but how is insulin used for doping?

I don't understand the particulars of insulin use myself, but it's been repeatedly reported by those who have come forward about their use. Here are some articles outlining it:

From "How to catch an insulin-doping athlete"

Insulin, when used as a performance enhancer, works to slow down the degradation of muscle tissue, which is attractive to such athletes as bodybuilders especially when they are also doping with a growth hormone. For endurance athletes, cyclists and runners, for example, insulin provides fuel for muscle cells and improves stamina. Although the prevalence of insulin doping is not known, luggage seizures at airports and testimonials from formerly doped athletes suggest that the abuse of this hormone is a real problem.

'We know insulin abuse is part of the doping regimen of some athletes,' said Rabin.

From Bernhard Kohl:

Kohl has been banned for two years after a doping violation at last year's Tour de France, where he finished third and was the race's best climber.

The cyclist admitted using the blood booster CERA and said Matschiner had also been supplying EPO, growth hormones, insulin and testosterone since they started working together in 2005. Kohl said he was "not surprised" by his former manager's arrest and added he had been cooperating with anti-doping officials.

From Jesus Manzano:

Manzano finally mentioned insulin, which he says is combined with other drugs. He says he was instructed to use it directly after hard training, referring to a medical plan that he says was given to him by his team's doctors. "I don't know why it's used, because it's something that, to tell the truth, I have never used. I am not diabetic. A diabetic has to give himself insulin, no?...Really, in this case, I don't know what function it has."

More:

http://velonews.competitor.com/2003/03/news/ask-the-doctor_3657 (this one is quite in-depth and informative)

http://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/sports-supplements-insulin-abuse-subject-to-testing-36332

http://www.spinningpedals.net/2010/03/valverde-doping-and-the-sport-i-love/

It goes on, just google "insulin doping cycling" and sift through the one (fairly irrelevant) comment by FLandis which pollutes the top results.

 

[Benotti69]

this is getting ridiculous, these riders are like mini drug stores (pharmacists here in europe) it can't be too hard to catch them in the act...surely a decent private **** would have wrapped this up long ago....

it must be so crazy for these guys when they sit down after retirement and think about what they did and for what to make some guy incredibly rich and take all the glory and they got the scraps........crazy.

 

[alberto.legstrong]

It DOES seem very likely Contador's programme is independently ran and managed by his own camp.

Lucky for him, or LA/JB would have gift wrapped the evidence by now.

 

[Cerberus]

It DOES seem very likely Contador's programme is independently ran and managed by his own camp.

Perhaps, but was it also independently run in 2007? My impression is the split happened in 2009 with LA's return.

 

[Mellow Velo]

Is this going to be another one of those investigations that oh-so-conveniently produces results a week before the Grand Depart?

Someone on here thought I was daft, when I predicted the bomb would be dropped on the eve of the Tour.
Timing is for effect and the week before the Tour is maximum impact time.

Yet more pressure heaped upon Armstrong and Bruyneel.
Meanwhile, Contador was out of the loop, so he'll be free from this stress.

 

[alberto.legstrong]

I think someone's getting his usernames mixed up.

How embarrassing!

 

[alberto.legstrong]

Is this going to be another one of those investigations that oh-so-conveniently produces results a week before the Grand Depart?

Are you saying you've seen this movie before?

 

[issoisso]

Seriously, what self respecting charger would throw dirty syringes in the official TdF garbage ? C'mon....and really, did they expect those two to fess up.

As Jeff Novitzky once said after the BALCO case was done:

"You'd be surprised at the evidence people leave around when they think they're above reproach"

 

[kurtinsc]

An endurance MTB friend of mine described a process called 'glycaemic clamp' whereby insulin is used in conjunction with glucose to fully recharge the muscles with glycogen overnight. (normally not possible after several hard days according to him) The blood glucose is monitored (hence the strips) and the insulin doses are adjusted accordingly.

He said he know's of stage racers who've done it and insulin is undetectable. I have always taken this story with a grain of salt, but do you think it's possible?

Perhaps the syringes are being used for insulin after all... just it's not by diabetics.

Edit: Its seems I've been beaten to the punch... (by the two above... at least I have my answer! wanna sell me some insulin?? hehe)

Well, yeah insulin is undetectable. It's a natural hormone that is produced by your body anyway and there aren't measurable "insulin levels" (at least as far as I know... and I've been a diabetic for 20+ years).

I guess my problem with it is that your body produces insulin naturally. The more glucose (food) you take in... the more insulin your body produces. What people are saying insulin does is accurate... but it all happens naturally without an injection. If you eat 1000 grams of sugar and inject no insulin... your body just makes more.

The reason diabetics need to inject it is that their body doesn't make enough (or any).


Here's the problem with using it for any other purpose. When you inject insulin... your blood sugar WILL drop. This causes a lot of problems. Weakness, light headedness, trembling, passing out, etc. The only way to get it back to where it needs to be is to consume glucose (or inject or take it through an IV I suppose). But this is the same effect as just getting the glucose... because a non-diabetic taking sugar will cause their body to produce insulin.


I guess I'm struggling to see why you'd inject insulin rather then just "dope up on sugar".

*** edit *** Maybe it has something to do with how insulin is absorbed when dealing with hard exertion. My understanding deals more with normal daily life... so perhaps when you are killing yourself on a bike for 7-10 hours a day your body doesn't produce insulin in response to sugar intake in the same manner. I'll have to do some reading.

 

[BroDeal]

Body builders have been using insulin in conjunction with HGH for almost twenty years. It is a well known stack.

 

[Rock7586]

I don't understand the particulars of insulin use myself, but it's been repeatedly reported by those who have come forward about their use. Here are some articles outlining it:

From "How to catch an insulin-doping athlete"



From Bernhard Kohl:



From Jesus Manzano:



More:

http://velonews.competitor.com/2003/03/news/ask-the-doctor_3657 (this one is quite in-depth and informative)

http://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/sports-supplements-insulin-abuse-subject-to-testing-36332

http://www.spinningpedals.net/2010/03/valverde-doping-and-the-sport-i-love/

It goes on, just google "insulin doping cycling" and sift through the one (fairly irrelevant) comment by FLandis which pollutes the top results.

Strong information, wasn't the fax that turned the screws on Hamilton also talking about a insulin injection as part of the complete program.

A copy of that fax should be brought back to the thread.