I'm done with the tour

[Parrulo]

Here's Terpstra's wins in a seven year career:

2005
1st Omloop der Kempen (1.2)

2006
1st Stage 6 Tour of Normandy (2.2)
1st Stage 2 OZ Wielerweekend (2.2)
1st OZ Wielerweekend (2.2)

2009
1st Prologue Ster ZLM Toer (2.1)
1st Stage 3 Critérium du Dauphiné Libéré

2010
1st National Road Race Champion
1st SparkassenGiro Bochum (1.1)

His highest position on CQ ranking is 118th

This is not the top class rider you're making him out to be. He's a journeyman pro.

terpstra is a good classics rider. he is not a top tier classic rider but he is decent nonetheless. he is still fairly young for a classics guy and has proven before that he is still strong after 260k of hard racing (ex: attacking a 30 man strong group in the final k, k and a half of the worlds this year.) so he is more then just a domestique, he may become one but atm he is more then just a domestique. just because some people don't know about the existence of anything other then the tour doesn't mean he isn't a good rider.

also only looking at wins doesn't show you how good a rider is. jurgen's VdB only win as a pro is a stage on this years dauphine. does that make him an average rider that should be a domestique? because last time i checked he was fifth on last years tour which by the way is a good placing but doesn't count as a win.

/rant

 

[Kender]

Simple fact is, they provided very few real flat stages in this years tour. HTC brought their best team with 1 goal in mind. Get cav to the line in first place.

there was no way this stage was ever going to finish in anything other than a bunch sprint.

as for breaking up the HTC train. No one has broght a team here that can do it.
Attack off the front? wont work. HTC will keep on dieseling and pull it back naturally just doing what they were going to do anyway. Muscle in on the train? several have tried. the lads are just too strong and experienced for that. check out the final stages of the last stage. EBH (i think it was) tried several times to push his way into the train. he was trying to push renshaw out of the line but renshaw just didn't even budge and inch. he was just too strong. the only way you could do it was to do an illegal move or crash into them

HTC and Cav deserve every win they get. they came to the tour wanting to win. the rest of the sprinter teams have come hedging their bets and hoping Cav was not going to be strong this year

 

[Mambo95]

also only looking at wins doesn't show you how good a rider is. jurgen's VdB only win as a pro is a stage on this years dauphine. does that make him an average rider that should be a domestique? because last time i checked he was fifth on last years tour which by the way is a good placing but doesn't count as a win.

Yeah, but JVDB could point to top ten finishes in the Tour and Giro to illustrate his quality. What has Terpstra got? 6th at Het Volk?

Maybe he'll become a great rider in the future, but at the moment he isn't getting the opportunities because he's not good enough.

There really aren't any more bunch sprints now than there were in the days of Cipollini or Abdoujaparov or Bontempi. Have a look at the archives. Usually about 8 stages finish in a bunch sprint of some sort.

 

[Look381]

No that good

I think Cavendish being so good is the reason HTC can afford being so greedy. They are putting all their eggs in one basket and Cav is so fast and reliable that that tactic succeeds. If for example Garmin did the same thing with Farrar, they would risk losing miserably and looking like complete fools. HTC has won 4 stages now which makes them look like geniuses.

Cavendish is not that good. He has the only team that is willing to put most of their riders into a lead out train. He is going to win most stages that come to a sprint because of that. Pettachi has been close to hom several times, without a train at all. If you want to find a really good pure sprinter, there is not much around at the moment.

I would say the big difference between now and 10 years ago is radios. The teams now know just how far ahead the break is at all times and can structure their race accordingly. This year there have also been teams like Europcar that don't have a GC contender, would not normally care about breaks getting time, but have the yellow jersey. Also there was a chance for BMC to get the jersey early so they rode tempo for some stages early on. These teams have been doing a superb job controlling breaks.

Its just a bad year for the breakaways this year. A good year for puchy riders who can sprint well and still climb a bit (Gilbert, Hurshovd) and a bad year for climbers as the GC contenders are driving things hard on mountain stages so far.

 

[jobiwan]

Cavendish is not that good...

Thank you for allowing me to ignore the rest of your post.

 

[King Of The Wolds]

Cavendish is not that good. He has the only team that is willing to put most of their riders into a lead out train.

Ask yourself why that is. If there were Grand Tour stage wins guaranteed, they'd do it. But there isn't against Cav. Because he's that good.

 

[Gubby Allen]

The next 2 stages will be breakaways, but even so Terpstra has a point. On the last coupe of tours, you can pick out probably 160 of the 198 who won't win a stage and you won't get more than 2 wrong.

It's good that the class of Cav, Gilbert, Sanchez, even throw in Thor come through but a good 7 or 8 minute breakaway win early on would be something refreshing - maybe needs an earlier cat 1 stage.

Still think some of the HTC stages could easily be prevented if a team, FDJ say could be bothered to do a little more to protect it & getting up front and something away from the norm in just sitting there & hoping it holds on.

Putting more than one bloke up there too, might be an idea.

 

[El Pistolero]

The next 2 stages will be breakaways, but even so Terpstra has a point. On the last coupe of tours, you can pick out probably 160 of the 198 who won't win a stage and you won't get more than 2 wrong.

It's good that the class of Cav, Gilbert, Sanchez, even throw in Thor come through but a good 7 or 8 minute breakaway win early on would be something refreshing - maybe needs an earlier cat 1 stage.

Still think some of the HTC stages could easily be prevented if a team, FDJ say could be bothered to do a little more to protect it & getting up front and something away from the norm in just sitting there & hoping it holds on.

Putting more than one bloke up there too, might be an idea.

Both Costa and Lulu won from a breakaway.

 

[function]

Here's Terpstra's wins in a seven year career:

2005
1st Omloop der Kempen (1.2)

2006
1st Stage 6 Tour of Normandy (2.2)
1st Stage 2 OZ Wielerweekend (2.2)
1st OZ Wielerweekend (2.2)

2009
1st Prologue Ster ZLM Toer (2.1)
1st Stage 3 Critérium du Dauphiné Libéré

2010
1st National Road Race Champion
1st SparkassenGiro Bochum (1.1)

His highest position on CQ ranking is 118th

This is not the top class rider you're making him out to be. He's a journeyman pro.

There is more to a quality racer than a CQ ranking, e.g.

Sebastian Langeveld 79th (prev 267th)
Nick Nuyens 109th (prev 281st)
Jens Voigt 837th (prev 95th)

etc. I watch bike races not only for the winners, because the animators and domestiques are sometimes even more entertaining, and bike racing is mostly losing (unless you're truly exceptional) and having that occasional win. But i can accept that some people are more interested in winners.

 

[Mambo95]

I would say the big difference between now and 10 years ago is radios.

The big difference between now and 10-15 years ago is that there is no difference, other than our memories.

Here's how many stages were won 10-15 years ago in bunch sprints:

1996: 7
1997: 8
1998: 8
1999: 9
2000: 8
2001: 5

The 'Cavendish years'

2008: 7
2009: 7
2010: 7
2011: 8 probably (Cav 4, Farrar, Greipel, EBH, Paris)

If anything, there are less sprints now.

 

[function]

terpstra is a good classics rider. he is not a top tier classic rider but he is decent nonetheless. he is still fairly young for a classics guy and has proven before that he is still strong after 260k of hard racing (ex: attacking a 30 man strong group in the final k, k and a half of the worlds this year.) so he is more then just a domestique, he may become one but atm he is more then just a domestique. just because some people don't know about the existence of anything other then the tour doesn't mean he isn't a good rider.

also only looking at wins doesn't show you how good a rider is. jurgen's VdB only win as a pro is a stage on this years dauphine. does that make him an average rider that should be a domestique? because last time i checked he was fifth on last years tour which by the way is a good placing but doesn't count as a win.

/rant

I agree wholeheartedly

 

[Mambo95]

etc. I watch bike races not only for the winners, because the animators and domestiques are sometimes even more entertaining, and bike racing is mostly losing (unless you're truly exceptional) and having that occasional win. But i can accept that some people are more interested in winners.

But he's complaining that it's too hard to win. So it's only natural that we should look at his winning ability.

And as to ranking comparisons - 118th is his highest ever year end ranking.

The highest ever for the three you mention:

Langeveld - 59th
Nuyens - 38th (five years in top 100)
Voigt - 12th (never outside top 100)

 

[pmcg76]

The big difference between now and 10-15 years ago is that there is no difference, other than our memories.

Here's how many stages were won 10-15 years ago in bunch sprints:

1996: 7
1997: 8
1998: 8
1999: 9
2000: 8
2001: 5

The 'Cavendish years'

2008: 7
2009: 7
2010: 7
2011: 8 probably (Cav 4, Farrar, Greipel, EBH, Paris)

If anything, there are less sprints now.

It was the arrival of the Cipo sprint train that changed sprinting forever, that of course coincides with the stats you have shown. Cipo actually dropped out of his first Tour in 92 becasue there were so few sprint finishes. In comparison to the 80s, the contrast is stark apart from 81 which was a freak year. Superconfex actually had a train for Van Poppel in the 80s but it was usually just 3-4 guys, HTC use the entire team.

81: 8
82: 2
83: 3
84: 2
85: 5
86: 3
87: 4
88: 6
89: 3
90: 3

In the 80s, it was still possible for final km attacks from the likes of Thierry Marie, Jelle Nijdam, Adrie Van der Poel and even some of the sprinters themselves to actually win using this tactic. This tactic is now redundant thanks to the trains.

I think the trains and the use of modern technology(radios/TVs in cars) have killed of the chances of breakaways on the flat stages unless there is a obstacle somewhere late on the stage. Yes, its boring but thats the way it is unfortunately.

 

[Ragerod]

The big difference between now and 10-15 years ago is that there is no difference, other than our memories.

Here's how many stages were won 10-15 years ago in bunch sprints:

1996: 7
1997: 8
1998: 8
1999: 9
2000: 8
2001: 5

The 'Cavendish years'

2008: 7
2009: 7
2010: 7
2011: 8 probably (Cav 4, Farrar, Greipel, EBH, Paris)

If anything, there are less sprints now.

The number of successful breakaways would provide a better comparison because stages 1 and 4 may as well fall under 'bunch sprint' because there was no chance of the breakaway succeeding.

The problems for breakaway riders this year have been a lack of field splitting stages early on so everyone remained a threat to the yellow jersey, HTC chase on every flat stage because Cavendish 'only' has five chances to win and his other opportunities have been replaced by more difficult finishes which suit other riders like Gilbert.

 

[Mambo95]

The number of successful breakaways would provide a better comparison because stages 1 and 4 may as well fall under 'bunch sprint' because there was no chance of the breakaway succeeding.

Yeah, but I don't know the circumstances of the older races, just the results. So I just went by stages were at least the top 50 got credited with the same time (which isn't stages 1 and 4).

 

[Mambo95]

In the 80s, it was still possible for final km attacks from the likes of Thierry Marie, Jelle Nijdam, Adrie Van der Poel and even some of the sprinters themselves to actually win using this tactic. This tactic is now redundant thanks to the trains.

I think the trains and the use of modern technology(radios/TVs in cars) have killed of the chances of breakaways on the flat stages unless there is a obstacle somewhere late on the stage. Yes, its boring but thats the way it is unfortunately.

Yeah, but that's the 80s. A different time. The teams are much stronger these days. HTC haven't changed anything. I don't believe radios have either.

The real change has come from when the break forms and who is in it. These days, on the flat stages four or five low level riders attack in the first kilometre with no aim other than getting some TV exposure. When they go everyone looks at HTC who shrug they're shoulders, say 'fine by us' and that's it for the day.

Now if other teams help with the chase and catch the break earlier than HTC want (e.g. 40-50km to go), that would allow another break to try. Like happens in the classics. But they don't. They let HTC do all the work and then everyone says it's their fault.

 

[yourwelcome]

HTC chase on every flat stage because Cavendish 'only' has five chances to win and his other opportunities have been replaced by more difficult finishes which suit other riders like Gilbert.

And thank god for those more difficult finishes so we can occasionally watch something other than a track cycling train barging their way to the finish amongst a GT peloton, or a climber being protected all the way until he wins the Tour in the space of 5 kilometres.

Just the fact that not many people would seriously equate Cavendish's stage wins to Merckx's underlines that Terpstra may have a point imho.

 

[Mambo95]

Just the fact that not many people would seriously equate Cavendish's stage wins to Merckx's

Purely in terms of Tour stage wins why wouldn't they equate them?

Merckx's stage wins weren't all epic rides through the mountains, you know. 16 of them were time-trials (11 of them less than 20km - some as short as 7km).

 

[El Pistolero]

Purely in terms of Tour stage wins why wouldn't they equate them?

Merckx's stage wins weren't all epic rides through the mountains, you know. 16 of them were time-trials (11 of them less than 20km - some as short as 7km).

Cavendish his stage wins were all shorter than 200 meter.

 

[therhodeo]

People have proposed reduction of team size as a way to make the peloton safer but it always assumes the same number of teams in a race. What if they dropped the number of riders per team and increased the number of teams to equalize. Seems like more motivation to get in a break for exposure and less motors per team to bring it back.

 

[function]

But he's complaining that it's too hard to win. So it's only natural that we should look at his winning ability.

And as to ranking comparisons - 118th is his highest ever year end ranking.

The highest ever for the three you mention:

Langeveld - 59th
Nuyens - 38th (five years in top 100)
Voigt - 12th (never outside top 100)

Looking at Langeveld again;

2011 65
2010 267
2009 59
2008 187
2007 218
2006 250
2005 1268

To me CQ rankings don't define the quality of a racer, Langeveld has always been a great rider, e.g. his 2008 ride (CQ ranking of 187) in KBK where he repeatedly attacked the front group, consisting of Hoste (SIL), Boonen (QST), De Jongh(QST), Devolder(QST) amongst others. Besides that, only 2 years outside the top 180? Terpstra could also have a breakout year where he satisfies the CQ ranking fans.