In Blood Stepped: The History Of Blood Doping In Sport

[fmk_RoI]

Re: Re:

(as would Felice Gimondi winning the rainbow jersey in ‘73 but probably not one measly stage win in ‘75, whichever of the two you want to believe, if you want to believe either).

It's not about believing or not believing. It's about not dismissing it as a myth.

I realise that you are quite unused to questioning "evidence" - you see something, you like it, you take it as proof, even if you have to bend it all out of shape. Others operate to higher standards. If I was dismissing the Gimondi story as myth trust that I would do so and not waste time testing it. Given the holes in it, it tells us very little. Close those holes and it's useful.

 

[fmk_RoI]

It is estimated that 5000 East German coaches disappeared after 1989 many gaining employment in the West. Of course this really means nobody knows how many are here? A few names crop up like Heiko Salzwedel but very little is known about him.

Didn't he end up in Russia, during the time when the WADA report says a couple of dozen cyclists had doping positives deep sixed? I wonder where else he's plied his trade and what questions the local media have asked of him...

 

[fmk_RoI]

Re:

There is a study from Scarpino (1990) suggesting that in Italy at the time blood doping was nearly as common as steroids and amphetamines.
See statistics on left hand side of second page:
http://ac.els-cdn.com/0140673690925029/1-s2.0-0140673690925029-main.pdf?_tid=afddf628-767c-11e6-8d38-00000aacb35d&acdnat=1473419038_a918b58e068d5fdfa067023bd4c68b8e

Not a statement that should be taken at face value. From the abstract:

Over 10% of athletes indicated a frequent use of amphetamines or anabolic steroids at national or international level, fewer athletes mentioning blood doping (7%) and beta-blockers (2%) or other classes of drugs. These proportions were 2-3 times higher for occasional use than for frequent use.

It strikes me as odd that sniper, of all people, should post 'evidence' that says only 10% of a population was on steroids when everyone knows it's 100% or more.

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

...It strikes me as odd that sniper, of all people, should post 'evidence' that says only 10% of a population was on steroids when everyone knows it's 100% or more.

exactly.
if those athletes say so, it must be true.
like when Burke says he learned about blood doping in 83.
or zoetemelk saying he really won't transfuse ever again.
*facts* I tell you. no reason to question that whatsoever.

 

[sniper]

HGH is known to have been in use as early as 1982.

cheers, good link.

 

[fmk_RoI]

Re: Re:

...It strikes me as odd that sniper, of all people, should post 'evidence' that says only 10% of a population was on steroids when everyone knows it's 100% or more.

exactly.
if those athletes say so, it must be true.
like when Burke says he learned about blood doping in 83.
or zoetemelk saying he really won't transfuse ever again.
*facts* I tell you. no reason to question that whatsoever.

I would never take that survey as factual. Ever.

 

[fmk_RoI]

Re: Re:

zoetemelk saying he really won't transfuse ever again

I don't recall anyone here ever saying he said that, so I trust you have a very good source for it. Care to share?

 

[Tienus]

BTW, I finally got round to looking out my copy of the Friebe Merckx biog, which you somehow thought was my sole source for the Z story. As I suspected, but didn't want to say earlier without checking, Friebe couldn't have been the source: he says Z transfused in 75 and stopped in 76. How you confused what I said with that I don't know.

I just wanted to point out an error you made. I noticed that both you and Friebe erroneously mention that Zoetemelk confessed a year later.

 

[Tienus]

Honestly, that Z doped is hardly news. Off the top of my head I can't think of a Tour winner who failed more tests more often. And he has the dubious honour of having still finished on the podium one year despite having failed a test and suffered the then customary 10-minute time penalty.

I know Zoetemelk was a serial cheater. I linked to the 71 article because it has many similarities with his transfusion confession.

 

[Tienus]

So, someone else's blood, the correct treatement for anaemia after all. Does it indicate whether it was French bloodbanks as he moved around the country or did he have to source it at home in the Netherlands? (Can you take blood across borders without documentation?) This speaks to cost: while he could theoretically have taken enough for three transfusions with him and used them as he went along, that's not optimal, the blood would be slowly deteriorating, defeating the effectiveness of particularly the third and final transfusion.

He used a French doping doctor who diagnosed him with anaemia, he was living in France riding for a French team and visiting French hospitals during the tour. Why would he be using Dutch blood?

The picture above the 76 sadle sore article is interesting. under the picture it says that this is one of the many examinations he has undergone the last couple of days. In the article it says that on the day of the time trial he visited the hospital twice and all this for a saddle sore.

Even if he didn't change his story from aneamia to saddle sore it would be incredible naive to believe he had aneamia. Im sure Fucs would diagnose Riis in his best year with anaemia.

 

[sniper]

Some excerpts of a report of the 1984 winter and summer olympics.
http://library.la84.org/6oic/USOC_Reports/1984/USOCReport1984.pdf

Six days after he came in second in the 10,000-meter run, Finland's Martti Vainio, who had long been suspected of blood doping, a technique not yet susceptible to testing, became the fifth Olympian in Los Angeles, and the second medalist, to be disqualified for using anabolic steroids. Vainio and the only other track and field athlete to be disqualified— Anna Verouli, a Greek javelin thrower—both claimed they were innocent. A California doctor, an advocate of anabolic steriods, Dr. Robert Kerr, claimed that he had prescribed forbidden drugs to twelve Olympic medalists who had escaped detection. Dr. Kerr named none. "I think he is seeking publicity," said
Prince Alexandre de Merode, the chairman of the IOC Medical Commission.

In the women's 1000-meter speed skating race, precisely as in the women's 1,500-meter speed skating race four days earlier, Karin Enke finished first, her East German countrywoman Andrea Schoene second and Natalia Petruseva of the Soviet Union third. There was only one difference. "This one was comparatively easy," Enke said, after setting an Olympic record. The East German star now had two gold medals, one silver and one race to go, the 3,000 meters. "Let's just wait with calling me a superstar till we are through with our schedule," Enke said. Mary Doctor of the United States called her pampered. "She has a masseur and a coach and a private doctor who are with her all the time," said Docter, who was considered a threat to win a medal in the 3,000-meter race. "She has her blood tested three times a day. She knows when she's building up, and when she's tearing down."

But if almost all athletes tested clean, Prince Alexandre de Merode, the head of the IOC medical commission, still was not totally pleased. He said the commission strongly suspected that some athletes were engaged in "blood doping," a procedure not yet detectable in which blood is removed from an athlete, frozen and then, before competition, reinjected, increasing the athlete's oxygen capacity. "Our commission condemns this practice," de Merode said. "It can cause cardiovascular damage, and our tests show the practical results in relation to improving performances are not very high. It is not on our doping list, but it would be if we found a way to detect it."

 

[Tienus]

Re: Re:

zoetemelk saying he really won't transfuse ever again

I don't recall anyone here ever saying he said that, so I trust you have a very good source for it. Care to share?

Thats what he did. It is also mentioned by Friebe on P316.

 

[fmk_RoI]

Re:

Some excerpts of a report of the 1984 winter and summer olympics.
http://library.la84.org/6oic/USOC_Reports/1984/USOCReport1984.pdf

Wow! Suspected blood doping at the Los Angeles Games of 1984? Who knew? Great find sniper! Sensational stuff!

 

[fmk_RoI]

Re:

"She has her blood tested three times a day. She knows when she's building up, and when she's tearing down."

If an athlete has a pin-*** blood test for lactate or blood sugar or whatever, are we to now consider that as proof they were banging in full transfusions?

 

[Aragon]

Re: Re:

Here some brand new information on blood doping and particularly transfusions.

The mysterious and sudden illness of Russian biathlete Sergei Tarasov in the 1992 Winter Olympics was long suspected to be caused by a blood transfusion, a claim that he vehemently denied. Tarasov nevertheless confessed that the suspicions were well-grounded in an interview he granted a year and half ago for a Russian newspaper Sport-Ekspress.

http://web.archive.org/web/20150326192939/http://www.sport-express.ru/fridays/reviews/835844/
(in Russian)
http://www.iltasanomat.fi/ampumahiihto/art-2000000878352.html
(in Finnish)
The story is interesting because it hindlights the fact that rEPO necessarily wasn't that easily available in early 1990s as has been claimed, because it is obvious that the biathlete would've used easier and less hazardous method had it been possible.

 

[fmk_RoI]

Re: Re:

http://web.archive.org/web/20150326192939/http://www.sport-express.ru/fridays/reviews/835844/
(in Russian)
http://www.iltasanomat.fi/ampumahiihto/art-2000000878352.html
(in Finnish)
The story is interesting because it hindlights the fact that rEPO necessarily wasn't that easily available in early 1990s as has been claimed, because it is obvious that the biathlete would've used easier and less hazardous method had it been possible.

That is the type of information that is genuinely useful. For cycling, especially so, given the story of Fuentes and the cooler bag (or box - it varies in the telling). And that many believe EPO had fully infiltrated the peloton as early as 1992.

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

"She has her blood tested three times a day. She knows when she's building up, and when she's tearing down."

If an athlete has a pin-*** blood test for lactate or blood sugar or whatever, are we to now consider that as proof they were banging in full transfusions?

who says anything about proof.
Proof is like when Burke says he learned about blooddoping in 1983, or when zoetemelks says he won't transfuse ever again. Or when Fucs says Z has anaemia. Or when Hampsten says there's no blooddoping in cycling in the 80s. That's proof. Hard *facts*. Read it all in your trilogy.

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

Here some brand new information on blood doping and particularly transfusions.

The mysterious and sudden illness of Russian biathlete Sergei Tarasov in the 1992 Winter Olympics was long suspected to be caused by a blood transfusion, a claim that he vehemently denied. Tarasov nevertheless confessed that the suspicions were well-grounded in an interview he granted a year and half ago for a Russian newspaper Sport-Ekspress.

http://web.archive.org/web/20150326192939/http://www.sport-express.ru/fridays/reviews/835844/
(in Russian)
http://www.iltasanomat.fi/ampumahiihto/art-2000000878352.html
(in Finnish)
The story is interesting because it hindlights the fact that rEPO necessarily wasn't that easily available in early 1990s as has been claimed, because it is obvious that the biathlete would've used easier and less hazardous method had it been possible.

I like how your and tienus posts make an absolute mockery of the claim that we had the whole story about blood doping.
This again is interesting. As the story is in languages I can't read, would you care to give more detail? Where in what countrie(s) was repo difficult to come by? Or is that your own conclusion? Id be cautious with that conclusion because in the 90s and 2000s blood bags never ceased to be in use, regardless of the availability of (r(epo

 

[fmk_RoI]

Re: Re:

I like how your and tienus posts make an absolute mockery of the claim that we had the whole story about blood doping.

A source for that claim I would dearly love to see.

 

[Aragon]

Re: Re:

http://web.archive.org/web/20150326192939/http://www.sport-express.ru/fridays/reviews/835844/
(in Russian)
http://www.iltasanomat.fi/ampumahiihto/art-2000000878352.html
(in Finnish)
The story is interesting because it hindlights the fact that rEPO necessarily wasn't that easily available in early 1990s as has been claimed, because it is obvious that the biathlete would've used easier and less hazardous method had it been possible.

That is the type of information that is genuinely useful. For cycling, especially so, given the story of Fuentes and the cooler bag (or box - it varies in the telling). And that many believe EPO had fully infiltrated the peloton as early as 1992.

How and when did EPO enter the Peloton is an interesting open question as it is very difficult to pinpoint the actual year when EPO was widespread in the peloton nor even the year when it was first used. The most solid "first" date I've seen is when Dutch sports doctor Rob Pluijmers told in 1990 in an L.A.Times article that he knew of three cyclists using the drug.

There has been a lot of gossip about earlier use, and of these the recollections of Dutch professional cyclistPeter Winnen are interesting as he tells that he saw EPO-ampoules in 1989.

Peter Winnen: „In 1988 ging het los. Sommige renners reden me voorbij alsof ze een hulpmotor hadden. Vooral bergop. Wie? Een paar Italiaanse jongens. Ik ben gaan vragen en had al snel antwoord. ‘Er zijn spullen op de markt die lijken op hoogtestage’, zei een van die Italianen tegen me.” Een jaar later, in 1989, vindt Winnen de ampullen Eprex in de vuilnisbakken van een Italiaanse ploeg.

The story is interesting in two regards
1) Winnen mentions actually a brand name ("Eprex") and not just "EPO". Eprex product became available in Swiss pharmacies exactly in 1989.
2) Winnen ended his professional career roughly two years later, so if his recollections are sound, the date should be roughly correct even when he is recollecting the story some quarter of a century later.
https://www.nrc.nl/nieuws/2013/01/17/hoe-een-medicijn-het-wielrennen-ziek-maakte-1198148-a791002

I'd appreciate if our Dutch-speaking truth-seeking comrade would take a look on the article and give his opinions about the story.

 

[sniper]

Aragon, there is a good thread dedicated to the first epo users. And the issue has
been discussed a lot in the lemond thread, too (as there have been rumors that lemond was one of the first users). See also the 'evidence' thread, which is a socalled 'sticky'.
The winnen stuff was discussed there too, iirc.
I'll provide links to it later, or maybe somebody beats me to it.
It would be great to have you contribute in those threads, too.

 

[fmk_RoI]

Re: Re:

Peter Winnen: „In 1988 ging het los. Sommige renners reden me voorbij alsof ze een hulpmotor hadden. Vooral bergop. Wie? Een paar Italiaanse jongens. Ik ben gaan vragen en had al snel antwoord. ‘Er zijn spullen op de markt die lijken op hoogtestage’, zei een van die Italianen tegen me.” Een jaar later, in 1989, vindt Winnen de ampullen Eprex in de vuilnisbakken van een Italiaanse ploeg.

The story is interesting in two regards
1) Winnen mentions actually a brand name ("Eprex") and not just "EPO". Eprex product became available in Swiss pharmacies exactly in 1989.
2) Winnen ended his professional career roughly two years later, so if his recollections are sound, the date should be roughly correct even when he is recollecting the story some quarter of a century later.
https://www.nrc.nl/nieuws/2013/01/17/hoe-een-medicijn-het-wielrennen-ziek-maakte-1198148-a791002

It's an interesting article, from a EPO point of view. I would take issue with the writer's claim - presumably supported by anecdotal evidence from some riders - that blood transfusions were limited to just a handful or riders. From the anecdotal evidence I've heard from several people you would need quite big hands in the 1980s, after 1984. It wasn't everyone, but it was quite a few, not just a couple of riders at one team, two teams. An Italian nexus, but not limited to Italy, spreading beyond.

 

[fmk_RoI]

Re:

interesting article a.o. about ozon therapy among East German athletes (particularly rowers) since 1972:
http://www.nzz.ch/article80QSR-1.378004

In den Akten der ermittelnden Zentralen Arbeitsgruppe Geheimnisschutz (ZAGG) des MfS (Ministerium für Staatssicherheit) wird ausdrücklich festgehalten, «ohne Genehmigung des DRSV (DDR- Ruderverband)» sei im Rudern eine «Oxidations- Forschung» betrieben worden. Beteiligt waren einer der 15 DDR-Bezirkssportärzte und ein hauptamtlicher Rudertrainer im Klub.
Dazu kam ein ausserhalb des Sportsystems stehender Arzt - er war in einem vier Autostunden entfernten Berliner Krankenhaus tätig und unterstützte das Blutdoping von der medizinischen Seite: Blutentnahme, UV-Bestrahlung und Sauerstoffdurchflutung, Rücktransfusion in die Sportlervenen.

Why were the East Germans only picking up on the idea of Soda Streaming blood in 1972 when Maître Jacques was publicly doing this in 1967? Didn't they read La Gazzetta or Miroir des Sports? Just how far behind the curve were those cheating Comm'nist b'stards? It's amazing the Father of the American Doping Programme was able to lean anything at their knee, especially anything that all the American doping doctors didn't already know.

 

[Aragon]

Re: Re:

One post-2013 information (or more accurately a new twist on the story) is that Italian Francesco Moser has retracted his earlier confession on having used blood doping to break the hour record in 1984. The story appeared in Cyclingnews, so I assume you already were avare of that.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/gallery-francesco-mosers-hour-record/

 

[fmk_RoI]

Re: Re:

One post-2013 information (or more accurately a new twist on the story) is that Italian Francesco Moser has retracted his earlier confession on having used blood doping to break the hour record in 1984. The story appeared in Cyclingnews, so I assume you already were avare of that.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/gallery-francesco-mosers-hour-record/

TBH the whole did he, didn't he thing is almost beyond confusing. Post 84 everyone seemed to understand that he did. Then in 99 - sorry, doing this off the top of my head, but IIRC CN has a story on that, in the old autobus section, if you want I'll find a link later - he said he did. Then there was a retraction before 2013 (I remember discussing whether it was still permissible to say he had when he'd said he hadn't - again, I can find a link later if it's wanted). Someone with Italian and more knowledge might be able to help here, didn't Conconi write a book about that Hour?

(Also, can't recall how much of this is anecdotal, but when Moser came back back post-Obree to take on the Hour again there was, I seem to recall, talk of it being a bit of a game with Conconi, to compare transfusions and EPO. I could be way wrong, you know anecdotes, they take on a life of their own, but those mid-/late-90s Hours of his did, I think, bring the subject to the fore again.)