Indurain in the '96 Tour

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Even the non cunty dopers have received far more backlash over positives or not even testing positive.

Can't help but think Armstrongs 'look at me I'm clean cycling Jesus' made the cleanz much more important than it was before.
Yes, but Pantani became an outcast even in Italy, I doubt that Lance already had a big effect on that. Maybe that one had more to do with how it happened, in the middle of a race he was dominating at will and the fact that he was never the same afterwards.
Indurain was not as ruthless as Eddie or even Hinault, he never went for stage wins in the mountains just because he could, usually he was happy to stay with the climbers (who lot minutes in the itts) even when he was stronger. He wasn't the kind of guy who demolished riders on a mountain stage just to prove a point, there are very few instances of him actually going all out on a mountain stage (La Plagne 1995 would be the obvious outliner)
 
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Even the non cunty dopers have received far more backlash over positives or not even testing positive.
Some depends on definitions here, which is why I wrapped it up in PR. Consider Millar versus Riccò , consider Pantani and Ullrich versus Riis and Menchov. Some of this will obviously vary from country to country, given it is PR. In Germany, Ullrich may not be as loved as he is in the UK and the US, cause they know more about him. In Denmark, Riis may be more loved than he is in the UK and the US for the very same reason. Most of what we are responding to is a media representation of riders.
 
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Yes, but Pantani became an outcast even in Italy, I doubt that Lance already had a big effect on that. Maybe that one had more to do with how it happened, in the middle of a race he was dominating at will and the fact that he was never the same afterwards.
Indurain was not as ruthless as Eddie or even Hinault, he never went for stage wins in the mountains just because he could, usually he was happy to stay with the climbers (who lot minutes in the itts) even when he was stronger. He wasn't the kind of guy who demolished riders on a mountain stage just to prove a point, there are very few instances of him actually going all out on a mountain stage (La Plagne 1995 would be the obvious outliner)
Well, he did sit on Lemond’s wheel for most of the climb up to Luz Ardiden and then scorched him at the end to take that stage in the 3rd week of the 1990 Tour. But Lemond may have just been happy that they finally dropped Chiappucci, setting up his 3rd overall title. I remember announcers questioning why Indurain didn’t stay with their team leader Delgado, but the team probably gave him the okay to go for the stage.
 
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That's a bit of a stretch when you consider the scale of the Pantani industry today, even in Italy.
Pantani only became the mythical figure he is today again after his death, when he was still alive Madonna was hanging like a cloud above his head.
A national hero when he won, an outcast when he got busted, a mythical figure after he died. My dad used to say if they'd have treated him like a normal human all the way, maybe then he'd still be alive.
 
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Yes, I could have used another expression instead of outcast.
It's important to remember this is not black and white, heroes and villains, there is a middle ground into which a lot of riders/dopers fall. Some because they are loved and people want to give em a second chance, others simply because they're not known enough to be either loved or hated. I don't think Pantani ever fell into the villain category (even when his treatment of Tafi in 1999 was LA-level c&%$ishness).

Personally, I think that even with the cloud of Madonna di Campiglio hanging over him, Pantani never really stopped being a hero in Italy. His stock may have fallen bit by bit before his death with each new failed comeback attempt, yes, but I think the desire to see him return stayed strong.
 
I think it's more down to PR. Eddy wasn't a c%!$. Indy wasn't a c%!$. LA, he was always a c*%!$.
Certainly and to a point. LA was the Euro version of the typical, avaricious and classless American. He demonstrates that to this day so he stands high above everyone else in the Dickkingdom he built.
That, and charging expenses to a charitable foundation....that's really bottom feeding stuff separate of behavior. He was a champion of image creativity as well.
 
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That, and charging expenses to a charitable foundation....
I love the way people are able to say all sorts of things without having to present proof. For all that Armstrong deserves to be criticised for the manner in which he used the Foundation as a shield, his detractors need to be criticised for all the unfounded claims they have made about the Foundation's finances.

If LA is even half as evil as you think he is, you shouldn't have to lie to show the level of his wickedness. Stick to the truth.
 
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I love the way people are able to say all sorts of things without having to present proof. For all that Armstrong deserves to be criticised for the manner in which he used the Foundation as a shield, his detractors need to be criticised for all the unfounded claims they have made about the Foundation's finances.

If LA is even half as evil as you think he is, you shouldn't have to lie to show the level of his wickedness. Stick to the truth.
I may recall incorrectly but Cyclingnews reported that Tour Down Under appearance fees were paid to LA and his foundation jet flew him as one instance. His own opinion on the Foundation benefit to society in light of he, himself wrecking it should also be of concern to you.
You need to check yourself before you accuse someone of lying.
 
More and deeper than you know. Judge someone else and dig into their history.
So you're not going to produce the evidence? It's not this, is it?
Seven-time Tour de France champion Lance Armstrong has arrived in Adelaide ahead of next week's Tour Down Under.

"Mellow Johnny's Aviation" has touched down in Adelaide for the first time, bringing its much-anticipated passenger.

Seven-time Tour de France champion Lance Armstrong arrived with his partner Anna Hansen and their seven-month-old son Max ahead of next week's Tour Down Under.

Mellow Johnny is one of Armstrong's nicknames and it is a take on maillot jaune, which is French for yellow jersey - the Tour de France famous leader's jersey.

Armstrong and his entourage flew into Adelaide on his private jet and the Mellow Johnny's Aviation logo was visible inside the plane door.

He also has the Mellow Johnny's bike shop in his home city of Austin, Texas.
 
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As your comprehension skills seem so sucky let me summarise for you: it was claimed that LA charged expenses to the LAF. The example offered when challenged was he flew to Australia on a Livestrong jet. The evidence for this has not been produced. The water was muddied by adding the unchallenged claim that LA got an appearance fee for the TDU. You jumped in the mud. The original claim is still awaiting proof.
 
So you're not going to produce the evidence? It's not this, is it?
The disclosure for TdU suggests he was compensated for 2 first class seats and your promo indicates the MJ jet delivered him. Assuming he did use the MJ jet he would have considerable expenses for that use. You and I know that expenses for both Livestrong and Mellow Johnny's Aviation are buried deep in their audit; available via subpoena. What can be seen is the cost increases in travel reported by the Lance Armstrong Foundation and Livestrong coincidental with the purchase and drop off after sale. $350k(prox) less the year after the aircraft was sold. As someone impersonating an investigative reporter, perhaps you can use your skills to find out why the foundation's travel expenses were disproportionately high, along with lobbying and entertainment particularly with the low grant output vs. income.

While almost every high income sports/entertainment figure is following the same foundation/expensing model; you would accuse me of falsehoods for drawing similar conclusions along with many other forum researchers back in 2009 and on. He wouldn't be guilty of anything illegal, given the US tax laws allowing this type of business expense but it is somewhat unseemly. His current view of his overall contribution to cancer curing is more than that.

I have friends that gained alot of strength during their cancer recovery from LA. Some spent money for Ride for the Roses and other charity initiatives. I'm thankful for anything that helped them.
 
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I wonder to what extent Indurain also benefitted from being there earlier than subsequent riders who got demonized for doping. I wonder if the public perception of doping didn't rapidly change right around that time. Nowadays people will complain about any recent positive getting a role in cycling while casually ignoring Eddy Merckx popped multiple positives
Cycling was hard to watch here at the time. Ironically even though I tend to favor Spanish riders, and Reynolds was my team, it took me a while to appreciate Indurain. I was young and wasn’t quite ready to see the LeMond-Delgado- Fignon era so easily dislodged when they weren’t past their expiration date. Indurain was just not much fun to cheer for, though he did grow on me. I wouldn’t know what was discussed inside the bubble, but it wasn’t talked about in what I watched or read. At the same time on tv we just didn’t know how fast they were going. We always laughed at guys like Theuneisse because he was the ultimate doper.

PDM was whispered about in 1991, but they had riders we liked like Raul Alcala.

Now that I’m really brainstorming here, I’m starting to recall reading about the early EPO deaths in the newspapers. It was over 30 years ago so it’s starting to slowly re-emerge from my memories. I remember the hushed tone of a new drug, but the common folks like me didn’t know the effectiveness of it. So it was all a shock.
 
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Well, he did sit on Lemond’s wheel for most of the climb up to Luz Ardiden and then scorched him at the end to take that stage in the 3rd week of the 1990 Tour. But Lemond may have just been happy that they finally dropped Chiappucci, setting up his 3rd overall title. I remember announcers questioning why Indurain didn’t stay with their team leader Delgado, but the team probably gave him the okay to go for the stage.
Delgado was sick the last week and gave Indurain the go ahead.
 

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