Is the Tour De France impossible to win without using performance enhancing drugs ?

[Zweindorf]

Is the Tour De France impossible to win without using performance enhancing drugs ?

Discuss...........

 

[WillemS]

Well, actually, I don't think the question you're currently asking is the one you want to have answered.

The answer to the current question is simply "No": If every rider would ride it clean, the winner would have won it without performance enhancing drugs. It is certainly possible for a clean rider to win, whether or not that's currently possible, given the possible abuse of fellow contenders, I don't know.

 

[Catwhoorg]

If the contenders are clean, then yes it can be won clean.

There is nothing in the race that fundamentally requires doping.

You have got to squeeze the doping advantages down (50% now the biopassport, flawed but it does limit the level people dope to), make the risks higher (better intelligence led police raids for example) to skew the risk/benefit away from doping being the default.

We are further along that line than we have been for a long time, but still not where we need to be.

 

[ElChingon]

Its not impossible but its not possible to win it in stunning fashion looking great the whole time.

 

[Zam_Olyas]

Jonathan V says you can win the Giro clean, don't know what he says about the french thing.

 

[spalco]

Imo the correct answer is: We don't know.

The more precise question is: Do we now trust the controls to ensure the cleanliness of the peloton? And I think that's a very dubious assumption, that currently doesn't have a definitive answer; or at least it's not "yes".

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

Greg Lemond did it.

 

[alitogata]

IMHO no...It is such the distance and the difficulty of each route that it is not possible for someone to win it without any performance enhancements.
If it was possible there would be some kind of unofficial TdF for amateurs to try there their chances to finish it. There is no such thing, nobody has ever thought to organize something like this. Coincidence??

We organize races for super humans and then we wonder why athletes try to become super humans in order to finish them..

 

[The Sheep]

IMHO no...It is such the distance and the difficulty of each route that it is not possible for someone to win it without any performance enhancements.
If it was possible there would be some kind of unofficial TdF for amateurs to try there their chances to finish it. There is no such thing, nobody has ever thought to organize something like this. Coincidence??

You seem to underestimate how much it would cost to organize a race like that.

 

[Fortyninefourteen]

Is the Tour De France impossible to win without using performance enhancing drugs ?

Discuss...........

You mean, "Can the Tour de France be won without cheating"...

Obviously not, because a clean peleton would never be be to make it to Paris. They would all be withered by the roadside like litter after a feed zone. Begging for dope like junkies. Zweistein?

 

[gerundium]

IMHO no...It is such the distance and the difficulty of each route that it is not possible for someone to win it without any performance enhancements.
If it was possible there would be some kind of unofficial TdF for amateurs to try there their chances to finish it. There is no such thing, nobody has ever thought to organize something like this. Coincidence??

We organize races for super humans and then we wonder why athletes try to become super humans in order to finish them..

Yea because it's an organisational nightmare that costs too much.

 

[veganrob]

IMHO no...It is such the distance and the difficulty of each route that it is not possible for someone to win it without any performance enhancements.
If it was possible there would be some kind of unofficial TdF for amateurs to try there their chances to finish it. There is no such thing, nobody has ever thought to organize something like this. Coincidence??

We organize races for super humans and then we wonder why athletes try to become super humans in order to finish them..

Why is it not possible? That is simply a ridiculous statement. If eveybody was clean, someone is going to win it right. The time would be a little slower.

See Moose for the correct answer.

 

[Bumeington]

IMHO no...It is such the distance and the difficulty of each route that it is not possible for someone to win it without any performance enhancements.
If it was possible there would be some kind of unofficial TdF for amateurs to try there their chances to finish it. There is no such thing, nobody has ever thought to organize something like this. Coincidence??

We organize races for super humans and then we wonder why athletes try to become super humans in order to finish them..

There is such a thing, google tour de force.

 

[alitogata]

You seem to underestimate how much it would cost to organize a race like that.

Oh com' on.. Do you really think that it is just a matter of cost? The reason is that it is not such spectacular to watch the participants of a race not been able to finish it.

If this was possible, then you would see individuals trying to finish one of TdF anual routes. But no amateur try something like this, not even randoneurs. Not because some of them don't have the money to do it, but because it is not possible to do it without drugs and the difference between an amateur and a professional is these drugs.

And this is not my arbitrary opinion..

 

[SundayRider]

If everyone was clean and the race was A LOT slower and less exciting for TV coverage then yes. At the moment - no.

 

[alitogata]

Why is it not possible? That is simply a ridiculous statement. If eveybody was clean, someone is going to win it right. The time would be a little slower.

See Moose for the correct answer.

If.. but for some unknown to me reason, this 'if" never happened for a century. Not even in a slower mode.

But wait a minute. How much is this "little slower" ??? Because if the slower is two months to finish the whole route, yes it is possible and I'll go personally for it.

I have done in the past 300 km randonneur in about 11:30 hours and I have been told that this was a rather good time. But I needed three days to comeback. I couldn't do the next day another 200 km.

Can someone tell me the reason? I can tell you. Because I didn't use any drugs to help my system over come the exhaustion earlier.

But anyway.. I don't want to argue about this. Anyone who has run in long distance events knows that normal people can't do such distances every day, for 20 days consecutively.

 

[Ibanez]

If.. but for some unknown to me reason, this 'if" never happened for a century. Not even in a slower mode.

But wait a minute. How much is this "little slower" ??? Because if the slower is two months to finish the whole route, yes it is possible and I'll go personally for it.

I have done in the past 300 km randonneur in about 11:30 hours and I have been told that this was a rather good time. But I needed three days to comeback. I couldn't do the next day another 200 km.

Can someone tell me the reason? I can tell you. Because I didn't use any drugs to help my system over come the exhaustion earlier.

But anyway.. I don't want to argue about this. Anyone who has run in long distance events knows that normal people can't do such distances every day, for 20 days consecutively.

There are many amateur events which offer extreme long distances over multiple days. For the version which mimics the Tour de France...see here:

http://www.tourdeforce.org.uk/the-challenge/

 

[xcleigh]

Oh com' on.. Do you really think that it is just a matter of cost? The reason is that it is not such spectacular to watch the participants of a race not been able to finish it.

If this was possible, then you would see individuals trying to finish one of TdF anual routes. But no amateur try something like this, not even randoneurs. Not because some of them don't have the money to do it, but because it is not possible to do it without drugs and the difference between an amateur and a professional is these drugs.

And this is not my arbitrary opinion..

ummm http://www.pelotonmagazine.com/Swift/content/22/1303/Were-Riding-the-Tour-de-France - http://reve.cc/blog/

 

[veganrob]

How much slower does it need to be? It is futile to compare eras but lets for a minute. In 1986 avg spped was 37.02 kph over 4000 k. In 2012 avg speed was 39.88 kph over distance of 3480 k. I did not bother to look at parcours. But 500+ k more distance in what is generally recognized as clean era won by rider that is last clean rider.
Make of it what you will. But

 

[alitogata]

There are many amateur events which offer extreme long distances over multiple days. For the version which mimics the Tour de France...see here:

http://www.tourdeforce.org.uk/the-challenge/

The event exists. But how many are and what is the background of those who participating?

Why don't you participate too if it is just a matter of training and good fitness? Why don't I? Why I can't ( and I'm talking about my self because I don't know what is your experience in such things), ride 200 km per day for 20 days? Is it something wrong with me or my cyclists friends, who some of them are more skilled than me??

It is not because some of us can't pay for the expenses of participating in such an event, but because we don't have the appropriate means to prepare for such a challenge. Which translates to medical and any other support or "support" ( if you prefer it this way).

And let me add something else, that might sounds of topic but it is quite relevant. If someone wanted to end this dope story, he would have to organize races with human distances, targeted for human beings and not super heroes, who need the super laboratories working in the background and experiment for their super performances.

 

[Microchip]

Its not impossible but its not possible to win it in stunning fashion looking great the whole time.

That's the point.

 

[hrotha]

Why is an amateur Tour de France relevant to this discussion? People would still dope for that big time, just like they do for gran fondos right now.

 

[alitogata]

Why is an amateur Tour de France relevant to this discussion? People would still dope for that big time, just like they do for gran fondos right now.

Straight to the point.

I know people who have finished 1200 km randoneurs and people who have finished 6x200.. but with performances that have nothing to do with these of TdF, and average speeds half of those in TdF.
( and then they needed ten days to comeback).

If finishing a Grand Tour is just a matter of technique and training, ok.. i'm in.. tell me the way to do it myself.

 

[DirtyWorks]

If finishing a Grand Tour is just a matter of technique and training, ok.. i'm in.. tell me the way to do it myself.

Even finishing a Grand Tour requires genetic gifts. For many, their ticket in the genetic lottery limits any amount of training to reach a that level. To be clear, pre-EPO, pre-steroids, it was pretty much stimulants and pain killers, so yeah it's possible to do a Grand Tour clean. You can do it. It won't be in podium-placing time.

Modern doping, or even pre-EPO doping is not required to have a spectacular event. It's a different event though. The attacks alone aren't pretty beyond the halfway point. It's a different kind of racing.

Apparently Pat and Hein do not like dope-free racing and would rather let riders dope and suppress suspicious results to make the racing look like something else.

 

[DirtyWorks]

...We are further along that line than we have been for a long time, but still not where we need to be.

It's been made clear through Ashenden's feud with the UCI that is not true. We learned that clearly suspicious samples were not routed to experts. The UCI lied and called it a "software error." Per Ashenden, if their software error claim was true, then they would never have caught Pelozotti (sp???) and others.

It is almost the 1990's all over again. Except, I do believe they don't want anyone killing themselves like they did with EPO. The UCI is picking winners by routing tests as they see fit. It seems most results are routed to a black hole.