Is the Tour De France impossible to win without using performance enhancing drugs ?

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May 11, 2009
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alitogata said:
..............
If it was possible there would be some kind of unofficial TdF for amateurs to try there their chances to finish it. There is no such thing, nobody has ever thought to organize something like this. Coincidence?? .....
From 1961 to 1980 the Tour de I'Avenir was an amateur race (but I do not recall its duration).
 
Sep 29, 2012
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airstream said:
How much money is at stake? I heard something like Wiggo's salary went up by $2-3M after the Tour victory. Until there is so much money, NOOOO. Human nature is too vicious for this.
Pretty sure it went to 2M GBP after he came 4th in 2009. And Sky paid 2M GBP in transfer fees. Why do you think his job was on the line by the end of 2010? And Vuelta success was so important?
 
Jul 19, 2009
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This article gives an idea about the power profile that occurs in pro stage races...

http://theconversation.edu.au/how-did-amateurs-compare-with-pros-at-the-tour-down-under-11946

When I was a grad student at the AIS, I shared an office with another student who did lots of these analyses on stage races (in particular the TdU). Pauwel's power profile during that stage is typical. Pros spend large chunks of time rolling about at power outputs that most good amateurs could handle, but the difference appears at strategic points in the race eg: breakaways, towards the finish, mtn climbs and ITTs. During these critical moments in the race, pro level riders produce power that is in excess of what the best amateurs can achieve.

IMO winning the tour is about 4 things, 1. having the engine to produce the necessary watts/kg or watts/CdA to put in time gaps (or loose the least amount of time) against your rivals in mtn climbs and TTs respectively, 2. having the endurance base to arrive at the bottom of the climb feeling relatively fresh 3. having the team support to deliver you to the climb having expended as little energy as possible and protecting you on flat stages 4. being able to recover effectively over consecutive days.

If you don't have the first 3 sorted, then #4 becomes far more important.
 
Krebs cycle said:
This article gives an idea about the power profile that occurs in pro stage races...

http://theconversation.edu.au/how-did-amateurs-compare-with-pros-at-the-tour-down-under-11946

When I was a grad student at the AIS, I shared an office with another student who did lots of these analyses on stage races (in particular the TdU). Pauwel's power profile during that stage is typical. Pros spend large chunks of time rolling about at power outputs that most good amateurs could handle, but the difference appears at strategic points in the race eg: breakaways, towards the finish, mtn climbs and ITTs. During these critical moments in the race, pro level riders produce power that is in excess of what the best amateurs can achieve.

IMO winning the tour is about 4 things, 1. having the engine to produce the necessary watts/kg or watts/CdA to put in time gaps (or loose the least amount of time) against your rivals in mtn climbs and TTs respectively, 2. having the endurance base to arrive at the bottom of the climb feeling relatively fresh 3. having the team support to deliver you to the climb having expended as little energy as possible and protecting you on flat stages 4. being able to recover effectively over consecutive days.

If you don't have the first 3 sorted, then #4 becomes far more important.
Wow! Brilliant stuff. Have you ever considered writing a book with Chris Carmichael?
 
Jul 19, 2009
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martinvickers said:
Krebs. seriously. Ignore button; absolute lifesaver.
I've got 674 posts in almost 4yrs. BroDeal has >11000. My ignore button is called not being an internet loser with no life and no job who spends all his days making lame sarcastic jokes on a cycling forum.
 
Krebs cycle said:
I've got 674 posts in almost 4yrs. BroDeal has >11000. My ignore button is called not being an internet loser with no life and no job who spends all his days making lame sarcastic jokes on a cycling forum.
Post counts? That's the best you've got? Your kung fu is weak.

Good ol' Krap Cycle, the Chris Carmichael of The Clinic, spends his time making posts about what it takes to win a GT that are just short of what a ten year old might find inciteful except when he is getting pwnded when trying to prove points with ridiculous uses of old results for races he never watched and is completely unaware of how the race developed. Don't worry. I am sure you will eventually find someone in cycling who manages not to get busted for doping so you can claim you are right.
 
Sep 29, 2012
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The first time I read that article, by a PhD (ring a bell?) at CSIRO who did a stint at the AIS (ring a bell?), comparing pros riding in a bunch (apples) to amateurs riding solo (oranges) over the same course, I thought to myself.... this is the kinda stuff .. but I digress.

One month later, we see a link to the article popup.

Incroyable as they say in France.

As for what it takes to win the Tour?

All 4 things Krebs mentions can be helped by doping. And if someone else is doping to boost all 4 things, the likelihood that someone else not doping - ie riding clean - can beat them, approaches 0.

So that's a no.

Pretty sure reading that article is worth about 1000 posts in the clinic in terms of life loss, too. ;)
 
Aug 10, 2010
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Krebs cycle said:
This article gives an idea about the power profile that occurs in pro stage races...

http://theconversation.edu.au/how-did-amateurs-compare-with-pros-at-the-tour-down-under-11946

When I was a grad student at the AIS, I shared an office with another student who did lots of these analyses on stage races (in particular the TdU). Pauwel's power profile during that stage is typical. Pros spend large chunks of time rolling about at power outputs that most good amateurs could handle, but the difference appears at strategic points in the race eg: breakaways, towards the finish, mtn climbs and ITTs. During these critical moments in the race, pro level riders produce power that is in excess of what the best amateurs can achieve.

IMO winning the tour is about 4 things, 1. having the engine to produce the necessary watts/kg or watts/CdA to put in time gaps (or loose the least amount of time) against your rivals in mtn climbs and TTs respectively, 2. having the endurance base to arrive at the bottom of the climb feeling relatively fresh 3. having the team support to deliver you to the climb having expended as little energy as possible and protecting you on flat stages 4. being able to recover effectively over consecutive days.

If you don't have the first 3 sorted, then #4 becomes far more important.
And then there was Floyd, with his mind numbing wattage, riding to Morzine.
 
Jan 20, 2013
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Krebs cycle said:
This article gives an idea about the power profile that occurs in pro stage races...

http://theconversation.edu.au/how-did-amateurs-compare-with-pros-at-the-tour-down-under-11946

IMO winning the tour is about 4 things, 1. having the engine to produce the necessary watts/kg or watts/CdA to put in time gaps (or loose the least amount of time) against your rivals in mtn climbs and TTs respectively, 2. having the endurance base to arrive at the bottom of the climb feeling relatively fresh 3. having the team support to deliver you to the climb having expended as little energy as possible and protecting you on flat stages 4. being able to recover effectively over consecutive days.

If you don't have the first 3 sorted, then #4 becomes far more important.
What did they award you at the AIS, for coming up with this model. A Batchalor of Arts in stating what is the bleeding obvious!
 
Krebs cycle said:
...IMO winning the tour is about 1 thing, 1. having a Ferrari engine to produce the necessary watts/kg or watts/CdA to put in time gaps (or loose the least amount of time) against your rivals in mtn climbs and TTs respectively...
Fixed at no extra charge ;)
 
Mar 18, 2013
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Krebs cycle said:
This article gives an idea about the power profile that occurs in pro stage races...

http://theconversation.edu.au/how-did-amateurs-compare-with-pros-at-the-tour-down-under-11946

When I was a grad student at the AIS, I shared an office with another student who did lots of these analyses on stage races (in particular the TdU). Pauwel's power profile during that stage is typical. Pros spend large chunks of time rolling about at power outputs that most good amateurs could handle, but the difference appears at strategic points in the race eg: breakaways, towards the finish, mtn climbs and ITTs. During these critical moments in the race, pro level riders produce power that is in excess of what the best amateurs can achieve.

IMO winning the tour is about 4 things, 1. having the engine to produce the necessary watts/kg or watts/CdA to put in time gaps (or loose the least amount of time) against your rivals in mtn climbs and TTs respectively, 2. having the endurance base to arrive at the bottom of the climb feeling relatively fresh 3. having the team support to deliver you to the climb having expended as little energy as possible and protecting you on flat stages 4. being able to recover effectively over consecutive days.

If you don't have the first 3 sorted, then #4 becomes far more important.
Try this experiment. Get a racing bike. Attempt to cycle on average a 100 miles per day for three weeks, over the same course, at the same racing intensity and speed of a three week grand tour.

During that time extract blood samples so that they can be later tested for haematocrit levels. Monitor your testosterone levels etc. Take note of your power levels from the first day to the final day. Use highly trained elite professional cyclists (clean) in this experiment. Compile all the data into a model. Use these results as a yardstick for future comparison (and past) with riders who are racing in three week grand tours.
 
Jan 20, 2013
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sittingbison said:
get with the program horsinabout, krebs got a PdD... in exercise physiology I think it was
A PdD, for comparing amatures to pro's power output differentials, this extra power can be gained through doping.....now i'm being blown away with science.
 
Mar 16, 2013
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sittingbison said:
Gentle(wo)men,
lets keep the baiting, insults, retaliations etc under control shall we? God you sound like four year olds ;)

cheers
bison

sittingbison said:
get with the program horsinabout, krebs got a PdD... in exercise physiology I think it was
Great example set here by you, 'administrator' :D

(says Brian, aged 4)
 
Stating the complete truth. From krebs own numerous acknowledgements.

And you are not even four weeks old Brian, let alone four years... again as stated by the participants (in fact Krebs) in an ugly spat.
 
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