Is the Tour De France impossible to win without using performance enhancing drugs ?

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May 27, 2012
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alitogata said:
Oh com' on.. Do you really think that it is just a matter of cost? The reason is that it is not such spectacular to watch the participants of a race not been able to finish it.

If this was possible, then you would see individuals trying to finish one of TdF anual routes. But no amateur try something like this, not even randoneurs. Not because some of them don't have the money to do it, but because it is not possible to do it without drugs and the difference between an amateur and a professional is these drugs.

And this is not my arbitrary opinion..
Ridiculous. The human body can be trained to complete the route. This poster smells fishy to me.
 
May 27, 2012
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alitogata said:
If.. but for some unknown to me reason, this 'if" never happened for a century. Not even in a slower mode.

But wait a minute. How much is this "little slower" ??? Because if the slower is two months to finish the whole route, yes it is possible and I'll go personally for it.

I have done in the past 300 km randonneur in about 11:30 hours and I have been told that this was a rather good time. But I needed three days to comeback. I couldn't do the next day another 200 km.

Can someone tell me the reason? I can tell you. Because I didn't use any drugs to help my system over come the exhaustion earlier.

But anyway.. I don't want to argue about this. Anyone who has run in long distance events knows that normal people can't do such distances every day, for 20 days consecutively.
Sounds like someone needs to train more...
 
alitogata said:
IMHO no...It is such the distance and the difficulty of each route that it is not possible for someone to win it without any performance enhancements.
If it was possible there would be some kind of unofficial TdF for amateurs to try there their chances to finish it. There is no such thing, nobody has ever thought to organize something like this. Coincidence??

We organize races for super humans and then we wonder why athletes try to become super humans in order to finish them.. :rolleyes:
Oh puleeez...

"Tour Divide" race, 4418km, over 65,000m of ascending, much of it on trails off-road, on mountain bikes with participants weighed down by all their gear because it's a self-supported event with no external, generally no drafting because everyone is littered throughout the route. Top finishers 17 days, lots more coming in around the 21 or 22 day mark. These people are not pros, not full-timers, without a team or financial support. Are they doping? We don't know for certain, but it certainly seems less likely than a pro tour road rider. These are amatuers who aren't getting paid nor receiving prizes, nor receiving any sponsorships. Do they need to spend a lot more hours in the saddle each day than an average TdF stage, yes of course but that's largely due to the nature of the event as described above. Stating that the TdF route is impossible to finish without doping is ridiculous.

http://tourdivide.org/2010_TD_Results
 
May 27, 2012
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alitogata said:
Straight to the point.

I know people who have finished 1200 km randoneurs and people who have finished 6x200.. but with performances that have nothing to do with these of TdF, and average speeds half of those in TdF.
( and then they needed ten days to comeback).

If finishing a Grand Tour is just a matter of technique and training, ok.. i'm in.. tell me the way to do it myself. :)
Become a professional cyclist and make riding your bike your job...for years.

You're welcome for the advice.
 
Oct 20, 2012
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DirtyWorks said:
Even finishing a Grand Tour requires genetic gifts. For many, their ticket in the genetic lottery limits any amount of training to reach a that level.

Modern doping, or even pre-EPO doping is not required to have a spectacular event. It's a different event though. The attacks alone aren't pretty beyond the halfway point. It's a different kind of racing.

Apparently Pat and Hein do not like dope-free racing and would rather let riders dope and suppress suspicious results to make the racing look like something else.
Genetics are another factor, I don't doubt it, but genetics combined with the appropriate drug make the unbeatable combination.

Sadly the thing is that races are made in the first place, for genetics+drugs.
Why for example a grand tour like TdF has clocks counting time? Isn't obvious enough that by counting times, in such mostly endurance events, is like asking for drugs?

And then we are fooling ourselves looking to find a participant not to be doped...:rolleyes: They are all doped... and that is the sad truth.. other more other less.. but nobody goes in such a race with "bread and water". And those who say that they did it this way.. they just lie.

Because if they did so, they would had the average speeds, that average clean athletes have, with lots ups and downs during each event, something that we can see happen on lot of amateurs' races, but never on pro races.

I think that in the end of the day, we get what we are asking for. For those who like to believe its ok. For the rest not quite what sports are about.
 
Oct 20, 2012
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ChewbaccaD said:
Become a professional cyclist and make riding your bike your job...for years.

You're welcome for the advice.
I know better ways to make my living. Sports didn't invented in the first place in order to cover people's livelihood needs.
 
This thread confuses me.

The question is whether it is impossible to win the TDF without PEDs?

Well, if everybody is clean, then the winner will not be on PEDs? What am I missing?

This just assume the winner is always doped up...
 
Impossibru! You cannot win the Tour without dope. That has been true for twenty years now. There is scant evidence there have been enough changes to make it untrue. Sky 2012 should disabuse everyone of that fantasy.
 
Athame said:
So what's the new juice?
Good question and one I'd like to see honest opinions of.

To respond to the OP, yes I do think it has been possible to win the TDF clean if the timing is right but today I'm not sure? Sky and Froome in particular worry me. Do Sky have something the rest of the peloton does not or did they just get a head start in 2012? Then again with all the talk of AFLD doing the testing this year we may see a more level playing field as in say 2011?
 
Aug 10, 2010
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alitogata said:
I know better ways to make my living. Sports didn't invented in the first place in order to cover people's livelihood needs.
Only an idiot would want to be a pro cyclist. You get bosses like Saiz, Riis, Ochowicz, and Bruyneel. You get massive pressure--internal and external--to dope. Unless you're a star, you are paid and treated like an absolute peon. You join a peloton that polices itself for conformity and omerta. You get fans who want to microcontrol your every moment to keep you "clean." Then you get periodic cycling scandals that threaten the entire sport with economic upheaval. On top of that, you are governed by a flamingly corrupt sporting organization.

Look at the Zabriskie experience . . . begging Bruyneel to treat him like dung.

Gosh! This dysfunctional filthy exploitative circus is fun to watch!
 
MarkvW said:
Only an idiot would want to be a pro cyclist. You get bosses like Saiz, Riis, Ochowicz, and Bruyneel. You get massive pressure--internal and external--to dope. Unless you're a star, you are paid and treated like an absolute peon. You join a peloton that polices itself for conformity and omerta. You get fans who want to microcontrol your every moment to keep you "clean." Then you get periodic cycling scandals that threaten the entire sport with economic upheaval. On top of that, you are governed by a flamingly corrupt sporting organization.

Look at the Zabriskie experience . . . begging Bruyneel to treat him like dung.

Gosh! This dysfunctional filthy exploitative circus is fun to watch!
so are you saying

that we can party on the positive side
and pump positive vibes
so come along for the ride
making you feel the rhythm is my occupation
so feel the vibration

it's such a sweet sensation
it's such a good vibration


:p
 

Dr. Maserati

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Jun 19, 2009
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MarkvW said:
Only an idiot would want to be a pro cyclist. You get bosses like Saiz, Riis, Ochowicz, and Bruyneel. You get massive pressure--internal and external--to dope. Unless you're a star, you are paid and treated like an absolute peon. You join a peloton that polices itself for conformity and omerta. You get fans who want to microcontrol your every moment to keep you "clean." Then you get periodic cycling scandals that threaten the entire sport with economic upheaval. On top of that, you are governed by a flamingly corrupt sporting organization.
Ya, because real life is so much better, these guys should quit and work on something wholesome like the banking industry.
MarkvW said:
Look at the Zabriskie experience . . . begging Bruyneel to treat him like dung.

Gosh! This dysfunctional filthy exploitative circus is fun to watch!
But not much fun for those who partake in the sport - then again, I wouldn't expect you to know anything about that.
 
Aug 10, 2010
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Dr. Maserati said:
Ya, because real life is so much better, these guys should quit and work on something wholesome like the banking industry.

But not much fun for those who partake in the sport - then again, I wouldn't expect you to know anything about that.
That's just my way of looking at the sport. It's also valid to paint the sport in rosy romantic hues, and then blame the inevitable scandals on the scapegoat du jour.
 
Cookster15 said:
Do Sky have something the rest of the peloton does not or did they just get a head start in 2012?
IMHO, they got the Armstrong treatment. None of their samples left the APMU.

I learned a little just trawling around bodybuilding forums. There are people seeking assistance with endurance doping on some of the forums. For me, it's definitely the case that a little knowledge is dangerous and it's all hypothetical for me because uncontrolled self-experimentation is beyond foolish.

I don't want to hijack the thread though. It's possible to have a much cleaner peloton for Grand Tours. The UCI and to some extent, ASO doesn't want it that way.

Let's all hope the AFLD can do something great this year.
 
Aug 10, 2010
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DirtyWorks said:
IMHO, they got the Armstrong treatment. None of their samples left the APMU.

I learned a little just trawling around bodybuilding forums.. For me, it's definitely the case that a little knowledge is dangerous and it's all hypothetical for me because uncontrolled self-experimentation is beyond foolish.

I don't want to hijack the thread though. It's possible to have a much cleaner peloton for Grand Tours. The UCI and to some extent, ASO doesn't want it that way.

Let's all hope the AFLD can do something great this year.
Amen! The threat of real testing, alone, will do much to tamp some of the doping down.
 
Mar 18, 2009
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MarkvW said:
That's just my way of looking at the sport. It's also valid to paint the sport in rosy romantic hues, and then blame the inevitable scandals on the scapegoat du jour.


The way I've been seeing it for a while now is that it's just safer to assume that
every ProTour victory/victor is dirty. No rosy hue there.
 
May 26, 2010
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alitogata said:
I have done in the past 300 km randonneur in about 11:30 hours and I have been told that this was a rather good time. But I needed three days to comeback. I couldn't do the next day another 200 km.

Can someone tell me the reason? I can tell you. Because I didn't use any drugs to help my system over come the exhaustion earlier.

.
I wouldn't be so naive to judge others performance abilities on my own limited one.

Plenty of people have the physical ability, after big massive efforts, recuperate enough to make another one the next day.

Plenty of people in the third world do this to surivive day after day.
 

Dr. Maserati

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Jun 19, 2009
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MarkvW said:
That's just my way of looking at the sport.
You were a long time Armstrong apologist - what the hell do you know about the sport except what you were told?
MarkvW said:
It's also valid to paint the sport in rosy romantic hues, and then blame the inevitable scandals on the scapegoat du jour.
Who does that? Please name them.
 
Aug 10, 2010
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Dr. Maserati said:
You were a long time Armstrong apologist - what the hell do you know about the sport except what you were told?

Who does that? Please name them.
Why does everything have to be about Armstrong for you?

You know I've never been an Armstrong apologist. About the closest I've come to being an Armstrong apologist is by saying that Armstrong is like a tumor excreting from a cancerous sport.

I get the fact that you think that pro cycling is a beautiful sport. Despite Festina, Puerto, USPS, and Padua . . .. I get that you think Floyd Landis is a sporting hero. That's cool with me, Maserati. If you don't want to accept the fact that the sport itself is filthy, that's cool. Keep the rose colored glasses, and rock on.

Seriously! Enjoy!
 

Dr. Maserati

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Jun 19, 2009
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MarkvW said:
Why does everything have to be about Armstrong for you?
It isn't Mark - but then again, as I have never seen you when I was discussing Contador, Wiggins, Ullrich, pantani etc in various threads I can see why you might think I only discuss Armstrong :rolleyes:

MarkvW said:
You know I've never been an Armstrong apologist. About the closest I've come to being an Armstrong apologist is by saying that Armstrong is like a tumor excreting from a cancerous sport.
A sport you know nothing about.
MarkvW said:
I get the fact that you think that pro cycling is a beautiful sport. Despite Festina, Puerto, USPS, and Padua . . .. I get that you think Floyd Landis is a sporting hero. That's cool with me, Maserati. If you don't want to accept the fact that the sport itself is filthy, that's cool. Keep the rose colored glasses, and rock on.

Seriously! Enjoy!
See you just made all that up.

The sport is indeed beautiful - however the Pro side is corrupt and drug fueled.

I have never said Landis is a hero - so i guess that all your points gone
 
Aug 10, 2010
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Dr. Maserati said:
It isn't Mark - but then again, as I have never seen you when I was discussing Contador, Wiggins, Ullrich, pantani etc in various threads I can see why you might think I only discuss Armstrong :rolleyes:


A sport you know nothing about.

See you just made all that up.

The sport is indeed beautiful - however the Pro side is corrupt and drug fueled.

I have never said Landis is a hero - so i guess that all your points gone
All points gone . . . . But it looks like you agree with me that pro cycling is a corrupt, drug-fueled cesspool--and that's the point I was trying to make in the first place.
 

Dr. Maserati

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Jun 19, 2009
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MarkvW said:
All points gone . . . . But it looks like you agree with me that pro cycling is a corrupt, drug-fueled cesspool--and that's the point I was trying to make in the first place.
No, your point was that it should be celebrated when you wrote:

"Gosh! This dysfunctional filthy exploitative circus is fun to watch!"

Now all your points are gone.
 
Aug 10, 2010
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Dr. Maserati said:
No, your point was that it should be celebrated when you wrote:

"Gosh! This dysfunctional filthy exploitative circus is fun to watch!"

Now all your points are gone.
Well, Maserati . . .

You agree that it is dysfunctional . . .
You agree that it is filthy (with the doping and corruption) . . .
I think that you agree it's exploitative . . .
and . . .
I think that you agree it's fun to watch.

What's left?
 
May 27, 2012
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MarkvW said:
That's just my way of looking at the sport. It's also valid to paint the sport in rosy romantic hues, and then blame the inevitable scandals on the scapegoat du jour.
.....still aren't worth it.
 
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