Is the Tour De France impossible to win without using performance enhancing drugs ?

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Jun 16, 2012
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andy1234 said:
So what you are saying is that clueless people who claim every rider must be doping, from the safety of an internet forum, are lazy w@nkers......

Sounds strangely familiar.....
And if they write the thread title just right, they get a bonus cookie to go with their intern t-shirt.
 
May 23, 2010
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And another thing. It's not possible to go to the moon because if it was there would be amateurs doing it and there's not. Coincidence???

No there is no 'go to the moon today and play in the giant crater thingy' tour is there?

WONDER WHY. And its not because of training or ability or money or anything because the only thing that separates moon going professionals and amateur moon riders are the drugs. Duh!


Sheeesh.
 
Oct 20, 2012
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UlleGigo said:
And another thing. It's not possible to go to the moon because if it was there would be amateurs doing it and there's not. Coincidence???

No there is no 'go to the moon today and play in the giant crater thingy' tour is there?

WONDER WHY. And its not because of training or ability or money or anything because the only thing that separates moon going professionals and amateur moon riders are the drugs. Duh!


Sheeesh.
Ok.. By supposing then that you are a rather skilled amateur, you say that if someone offered you all the expenses, ( gear, training, accommodation etc) to participate to any Grand Tour, you would participate and you would finish it just by good training and without drugs... Is that what you're saying now?

If this is the case so "Ιδού η Ρόδος ιδού και το πήδημα".
 
Sep 29, 2012
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UlleGigo said:
And another thing. It's not possible to go to the moon because if it was there would be amateurs doing it and there's not. Coincidence???

No there is no 'go to the moon today and play in the giant crater thingy' tour is there?

WONDER WHY. And its not because of training or ability or money or anything because the only thing that separates moon going professionals and amateur moon riders are the drugs. Duh!


Sheeesh.
Give them time, they're doing more space flights than NASA now.
 
May 23, 2010
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alitogata said:
Ok.. By supposing then that you are a rather skilled amateur, you say that if someone offered you all the expenses, ( gear, training, accommodation etc) to participate to any Grand Tour, you would participate and you would finish it just by good training and without drugs... Is that what you're saying now?

If this is the case so "Ιδού η Ρόδος ιδού και το πήδημα".
Supposing I was. And supposing that. And supposing the other thing. My head hurts. I'm saying that whether an amateur could complete a mock Tour, and I'm not saying one couldn't, is irrelevant to drugs in the peleton and the question being posed itt.

I don't speak Greek but I'll assume I know what your saying and simply say, 'No thank you. I'm not that way inclined'. ;)
 
Mar 13, 2009
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Weapons of @ss Destruction said:
Highly circular argument ^^^

The above is a concept of how to keep doped riders from having such a huge edge on the clean riders. It is a trusim to say that the peloton can't exceed it's physical capabilities (in the absence of PEDs). If everyone is clean then the speeds will find their own equilibrium of what is realistic and possible. The distance and route in of itself isn't a problem, other than for those riders who are looking for a way to cheat the personal ceiling of performance allowed by their genetics and training.
red queen effect. jumping on the treadmill, and running whilst standing still.

cycling was more entertaining sans O2 vector push. or putsch.

badger v hinault. queen stage only seeing the heads of state mano a mano on the final ascent. no more hincapie hitting the bottom of the climb on the final climb riding "tempo" with 30+ still in the final group.

that was cycling.

like you say, a hypothetical clean peloton will find its own equilibrium. And this is there Verbruggen's view on the professional peloton, and blaming the fans for doping, breaks down. he says the fans want to see the leaders doing 30kmph up alpe d'huez.

this is bs. the fans would prefer a true contest, when the final climb has a true battle from the podium contenders, and the domestiques are jettisoned well before the final climb.

the speed up the final ascent, is irrelevant. because its the contest that matters, and the speed will be viewed thru a lens that discerns their relative speed versus their competitors.
 
Oct 20, 2012
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UlleGigo said:
Supposing I was. And supposing that. And supposing the other thing. My head hurts. I'm saying that whether an amateur could complete a mock Tour, and I'm not saying one couldn't, is irrelevant to drugs in the peleton and the question being posed itt.

I don't speak Greek but I'll assume I know what your saying and simply say, 'No thank you. I'm not that way inclined'. ;)
Ha ha ha.. If your head hurts you'll never gonna make it to get to the Moon. ;)
 
blackcat said:
badger v hinault. queen stage only seeing the heads of state mano a mano on the final ascent. no more hincapie hitting the bottom of the climb on the final climb riding "tempo" with 30+ still in the final group.
Badger is Hinault. ;)

Those Hincapie days were hilarious. All you could do was laugh at the clown show.
 
Mar 13, 2009
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Moose McKnuckles said:
Badger is Hinault. ;)

Those Hincapie days were hilarious. All you could do was laugh at the clown show.
and it was implicit I meant Lemond.
 
May 14, 2010
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blackcat said:
red queen effect. jumping on the treadmill, and running whilst standing still.

cycling was more entertaining sans O2 vector push. or putsch.

badger v hinault. queen stage only seeing the heads of state mano a mano on the final ascent. no more hincapie hitting the bottom of the climb on the final climb riding "tempo" with 30+ still in the final group.

that was cycling.


like you say, a hypothetical clean peloton will find its own equilibrium. And this is there Verbruggen's view on the professional peloton, and blaming the fans for doping, breaks down. he says the fans want to see the leaders doing 30kmph up alpe d'huez.

this is bs. the fans would prefer a true contest, when the final climb has a true battle from the podium contenders, and the domestiques are jettisoned well before the final climb.


the speed up the final ascent, is irrelevant. because its the contest that matters, and the speed will be viewed thru a lens that discerns their relative speed versus their competitors.
This point can't be emphasized enough. The assertion so often made by doping apologists, that cycling is made entertaining by dope (in other words, "we do it for you") is just another cynical lie. Doping has nothing to do with making cycling more entertaining. It may seem counter-intuitive, but entertaining you is the last thing on the minds of those inside doping circles.



Saying that dope is needed to make cycling more entertaining is another way of saying that cycling is a boring sport -- only dope can save cycling from its boring nature.

This shows the contempt doping facilitators have for cycling; but the truth is, they don't really care how entertaining it is, just like they don't care about we, the cycling fans, nor their own riders .



If doped-to-the-eyeballs riders have their careers cut short, not to mention their lives, it doesn't matter, just so long as they produce victories. And if in the process of getting those victories hyper-doped teams make a race, or a few decades worth of races, that bore drunken, stupid fans (who, after all, pay no money); none of that matters, either (besides which, the deadbeat fans are too stupid to know the difference -- so say the money makers -- and public memory is short).



The only thing that matters, to these doping meisters, is sponsorship, licensing deals, backroom financing, merchandising, and bribes; in other words, money. Money is the sport these guys play, and the only sport they care about.



We're probably not going to get the money out of cycling, so the solution to the doping problem is to make it cost more than it's worth. This means

1) Get the criminals, the major ones, out of the sport;

2) Start enforcing existing laws against doping, dope trafficking, conspiracy, and general corruption. Follow the money trail, and if it leads directly to the boardrooms of companies like Amgen and Nike, and organizations like the IOC, and investment firms, banks, etc. -- not to mention the various national organized crime families -- so much the better.

3) Further criminalize doping, and doping practices, in sport;

4) Reorganize the oversight organizations so that they are more transparent and democratic, controlled by elected representatives (subject to recall) of the various stakeholders, including fans.

If these things could be done cycling might regain its legitimacy (if regain is the right word for something you only ever had a tenuous hold on, long ago). People like Armstrong, Weisel, Riis, Saiz, etc -- the list is a long one -- would either not become corrupted, or never approach cycling in the first place, having found an easier way to make money. Do these things and cycling would have a chance to become a true sport, and thus bigger than any of us could ever hope, but in any case worth our time.

EDIT: But to answer the question asked by the OP, is it possible to win the Tour de France dope-free: it's possible to win the sport, if we get the corruption out of it; without that, the race is already lost.
 
Aug 12, 2009
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Great post Maxiton.

Like your juxtaposed images. Nice highlights of what is wrong with cycling. The people in it. Fix them, you fix cycling.
 
Sep 29, 2012
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Ferminal said:
That article is from 2010. Some time between then and Cadel Evans winning the Tour everyone declared a cease fire, deciding never to dope again :eek:
Curiously JV hasn't mentioned that one.

We have a cease-fire for 2006 and 2008. And the one you suggest, between 2010 and July 2011...

I think there was definitely a cease-fire last year, that one team may have capitalised on. Will be interesting to see if it continues.
 
Zaragon said:
According to Bernhard Kohl it is.

Kohl: Not possible to win Tour de France without doping.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/kohl-not-possible-to-win-tour-de-france-without-doping
Kohl is an idiot. The entire statement "you can't win the TDF without doping" has ZERO merit.

He doesn't even clarify what he means by this?

It sounds as if what he really means to say is "to finish the TDF, you have to dope."

Not just win.

If everybody is clean, then nobody wins the race?!?! WTF, this is just stupid logic.

Maybe there is some translation that was missed. But the entire assertion is dumb.

So guys 80yrs ago were all doped on EPO?
 

airstream

BANNED
Mar 29, 2011
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How much money is at stake? I heard something like Wiggo's salary went up by $2-3M after the Tour victory. Until there is so much money, NOOOO. Human nature is too vicious for this.
 
Mar 13, 2009
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Zweindorf said:
Is the Tour De France impossible to win without using performance enhancing drugs ?

Discuss...........
rhetorical question. no discussion necessary.
 
Mar 13, 2009
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zigmeister said:
Kohl is an idiot. The entire statement "you can't win the TDF without doping" has ZERO merit.

He doesn't even clarify what he means by this?

It sounds as if what he really means to say is "to finish the TDF, you have to dope."

Not just win.

If everybody is clean, then nobody wins the race?!?! WTF, this is just stupid logic.

Maybe there is some translation that was missed. But the entire assertion is dumb.

So guys 80yrs ago were all doped on EPO?
you dont know much of the history of the tour zig?

doping has been part of it since dot.
 
Mar 13, 2009
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Dear Wiggo said:
Curiously JV hasn't mentioned that one.

We have a cease-fire for 2006 and 2008. And the one you suggest, between 2010 and July 2011...

I think there was definitely a cease-fire last year, that one team may have capitalised on. Will be interesting to see if it continues.
but jonny vee knew evans spoke of having the ferrari inside him.
 
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