Is this considered doping???...

[Big GMaC]

you left out option 3... sales rep for Creatine.

however due to his total lack of understanding how EPO aids performance, and his mashing of the english language, i think this link is appropriate

BUY MY CREATINE

LOOK AT ALL THE STUFF TI DOES

FABIAN TAKES IT TOO YOU KNOW.

Ha!

Anyway,

looks like you are on a mission Hugh!

Do you have one black one and one white one?

 

[Eyjafjallajokull]

Eric Cartman took a lot of creatine.

 

[petethedrummer]

Think of all those riders dying from heart attacks, the suspensions, the fallen heroes, the wasted time and resources of those testing laboratories, when all the time blood boosting does nothing to enhance performance. Green Tea has stumbled upon something that no cyclist, DS, team Doctor or trainer has realised. Creatine is the real deal........ Amateur Rugby was right all along.

I for one want a part of the action. Green Tea, if you want to go into distribution I will invest. I have this Nigerian Prince emailing me, wanting to give (that's right, GIVE) me money. This could be huge.

 

[ChrisE]

I thought the "Horner is weak" thread was possibly the most idiotic thread I have ever run across. This one is giving it a good run.

 

[Hugh Januss]

I thought the "Horner is weak" thread was possibly the most idiotic thread I have ever run across. This one is giving it a good run.

The Horner thread was just lame this one is idiotic trolling. You might remember some of Green Teases other contributions when he went by Deadlift and/or Rise of the Dead."Honk" as a descriptive term for drug use seems to be one of his favorite expressions.

 

[ChrisE]

The Horner thread was just lame this one is idiotic trolling. You might remember some of Green Teases other contributions when he went by Deadlift and/or Rise of the Dead."Honk" as a descriptive term for drug use seems to be one of his favorite expressions.

Man, I don't know how you remember those things. I remember them now, but not until you mentioned it. How do you know it is the same guy?

I am almost positive I slung something derogatory at ROTD, I just can't remember what. Or, maybe I egged him on. It all runs together now.

 

[issoisso]

This thread is epic

Next topic in line: let's ban dihydrogen monoxyde too

 

[Oldman]

Then your being lied to. Either that or my power meter is giving me the worng info.

I tried it ten years ago and it allowed for some quicker recovery for weight training. It also seemed to be a mild diuretic or capable of a similar effect. 4 hours into hard races and the cramping was unbelievable. This was the effect of very small dosing and went away immediately when I quit trying the stuff. Mark McGuire was eating handfuls of it and HGH imo.

 

[karlboss]

This thread is epic

Next topic in line: let's ban dihydrogen monoxyde too

I hear everyone takes it and after 3 days without these superathletes taking it, they return to complete resting state and are useless.

 

[krebs303]

I hear everyone takes it and after 3 days without these superathletes taking it, they return to complete resting state and are useless.

I used to smoke it back in the 60's

 

[issoisso]

I used to smoke it back in the 60's

You used to smoke a liquid?

 

[karlboss]

You used to smoke a liquid?

he means inhale, I hear it can be taken that way, cheats use it for clearing allergies...Contador?

 

[Ferdinand Artichoke]

but it is lactic acid, not latic acid. This thread makes me chuckle.

That's why I couldn't find it on a wikipedia search!

 

[happychappy]

Green Tea if you put all this effort into riding a bike you might actually make it as a club cyclist.

 

[Ferdinand Artichoke]

SANDWICHES

**proven to lift performance....



**control sample lived on jelly beans made from LATIC acid

 

[lean mean &green]

I still can't tell if you are just trolling, just clueless or as some suggested, both. Therefore, I'm going to be lazy and give you this chart; notice the lack of 'lactic acid':

lactic acid is a byproduct of gylcolysis, the author/illustrator chose to leave it out of the diagram you pulled from the wikipedia cell respiration page. It doesn't mean it's not a part of this process, just that the author/illustrator is choosing to leave it out of the discussion for the time being. in pedagogical terms they are "chunking" or simplify information into easily digestable little "bites" for the observer. if you're still curious it should be an off-shoot of pyruvate. do a google image search of "glycolysis and fermentation". you're welcome.

the original discussion was whether or not EPO buffers acid. the answer is no, sort of. EPO itself will do nothing to buffer acid. EPO stimulates the production of red blood cells. RBC's deliver O2 as well as play a CRITICAL and often ignored role to the layperson in removing waste and buffering acids produced by working muscles. All of these functions are limiters of performance and athletic success. Ie mucho importanto! so indirectly, EPO DOES increase acid buffering capabilities.

i'm not sure what green tea is trying to say or if he's trying to market a product in some back-handed way but creatine supplementation probably has some merit for racing cyclists. it will not impact performance as profoundly as EPO but is likely somewhat useful. most research pertaining to endurance athletes focuses on efforts that are a steady-state and so creatine is thought to be ineffective in those cases. however, the nature of bike racing (except for time trialing) is intermittent. in other words, periods of low or moderate intensity are often followed by hard efforts lasting a few minutes or even just a few seconds in order to be successful. Anaerobic efforts (using glycolysis and occasionally the phosphocreatine system) are very necessary. ironically, Cancellara's strength is TT and his riding style actually makes him a terrible example of the differences creatine supplementation could make.

in conclusion, creatine supplementation in small amounts might be helpful but is probably of minor consequence to cycling performance. EPO/boosting RBC's will result in substantial performance gains that provide an unfair competitive advantage. apples and oranges.

if you're wondering...yes, i've got a formal education in this stuff.

 

[Oldman]

in conclusion, creatine supplementation in small amounts might be helpful but is probably of minor consequence to cycling performance. EPO/boosting RBC's will result in substantial performance gains that provide an unfair competitive advantage. apples and oranges.

if you're wondering...yes, i've got a formal education in this stuff.

Have you seen any studies indicating actual reduction in time-based performance related to it? Just curious as it was a mutual experience among team mates trying it for training. We all swore off supplements after that.

 

[Willy_Voet]

if you're still curious it should be an off-shoot of pyruvate. do a google image search of "glycolysis and fermentation". you're welcome.

if you're wondering...yes, i've got a formal education in this stuff.

Holy High Horse, Batman!

I 'chunked' the aerobic cycle at Green Tea to drive home the point that EPO increases oxygen carrying capacity making the anaerobic pathway (well, not unnecessary), but less called upon. You remain more efficient energy-wise using EPO, decreasing lactate build up making 'buffering' less necessary.

I guess I could have used 3 paragraphs to explain that...but, I'm lazy and/or didn't feel like feeding the troll more than a Wiki page.

 

[lean mean &green]

Have you seen any studies indicating actual reduction in time-based performance related to it? Just curious as it was a mutual experience among team mates trying it for training. We all swore off supplements after that.

creatine has been rumored to induce cramping or to hinder thermoregulation but the latest research doesn't seem to support that idea.
Putting to rest the myth of creatine supplementation leading to muscle cramps and dehydration.

in some instances i believe personal experience trumps research. it's your call.

by time-based performance i assume you mean an individual time trial (ITT or even a TTT). i think the research is mixed on this. it does not seem to improve this type of performance but i haven't seen a study design i particularly like (double-blind, good control, large sample size, well-trained cylcists, occuring over a long period of time, etc). i assume that anyone who is serious about these types of performances is employing interval training of some kind and i have to think they might benefit from creatine. (italics imply conjecture). remember, creatine supplementation only improves the performance of a racing cyclist's rarely called upon phosphocreatine system. the biggest improvements occur in VERY short, VERY intense efforts, ie sprinting. the longer the interval, the less consequential. creatine isn't going to transform andy schleck into mark cavendish either. i'm not pushing creatine on cyclists, only communicating that it's not laughable or silly as the tone of the thread was beginning to suggest.

 

[lean mean &green]

Holy High Horse, Batman!

i did not meant to offend, just wanted to clean up some ambiguity.

if it makes you feel any better it's just a state-school education

 

[Colm.Murphy]

. i'm not pushing creatine on cyclists, only communicating that it's not laughable or silly as the tone of the thread was beginning to suggest.

Yes it is. In the context of the conversation, debating the merits of EPO vs creatine is highly laughable. You've missed the point and counterpoints. Re-read the thread, we'll wait.

 

[BikeCentric]

creatine has been rumored to induce cramping or to hinder thermoregulation but the latest research doesn't seem to support that idea.
Putting to rest the myth of creatine supplementation leading to muscle cramps and dehydration.

in some instances i believe personal experience trumps research. it's your call.

by time-based performance i assume you mean an individual time trial (ITT or even a TTT). i think the research is mixed on this. it does not seem to improve this type of performance but i haven't seen a study design i particularly like (double-blind, good control, large sample size, well-trained cylcists, occuring over a long period of time, etc). i assume that anyone who is serious about these types of performances is employing interval training of some kind and i have to think they might benefit from creatine. (italics imply conjecture). remember, creatine supplementation only improves the performance of a racing cyclist's rarely called upon phosphocreatine system. the biggest improvements occur in VERY short, VERY intense efforts, ie sprinting. the longer the interval, the less consequential. creatine isn't going to transform andy schleck into mark cavendish either. i'm not pushing creatine on cyclists, only communicating that it's not laughable or silly as the tone of the thread was beginning to suggest.

Creatine is kind of laughable for a bike racer though and here's why. It's been shown to improve your 5-second (sprint) power by something like 20 or 30 watts. First off that's a very small gain but sure it can make the difference; I've lost bike races by a centimeter before and 20 or 30 watts will make that difference! But anyway creatine also makes you put on 3-5 pounds of water weight. I would posit that lugging an extra 3-5 pounds all the way to the finish line would completely negate that small increase in sprint power and that is certainly how I felt when I tried the stuff.

 

[alberto.legstrong]

If that is true, pregnant women would have a huge advantage.

I knew these man-b00bies would come in handy one day! But, dang, how that bib strap irritates them after a while.

 

[lean mean &green]

Yes it is. In the context of the conversation, debating the merits of EPO vs creatine is highly laughable. You've missed the point and counterpoints. Re-read the thread, we'll wait.

what's bolded is a point i clearly agreed with.

creatine was stated by others to be "a complete waste of money". i don't totally agree.

 

[alberto.legstrong]

Creatine is kind of laughable for a bike racer though and here's why. It's been shown to improve your 5-second (sprint) power by something like 20 or 30 watts. First off that's a very small gain but sure it can make the difference; I've lost bike races by a centimeter before and 20 or 30 watts will make that difference! But anyway creatine also makes you put on 3-5 pounds of water weight. I would posit that lugging an extra 3-5 pounds all the way to the finish line would completely negate that small increase in sprint power and that is certainly how I felt when I tried the stuff.

I think there is a bit of a difference between the benefits of creatine for weekend warriors and the lack of interest by high level racers. I don't think it has much benefit at all for pro's or near-pro's. It might be counterproductive, as you mention the water weight gain that attends its use and the relatively small increase. But the real world observations of weekend warriors who use creatine may yield quite a different result. Your mileage may vary.

I know some guys, some that compete as well but prolly not at a high level, that swear by it. I know other non-competitors who notice very substantial benefits. But at the level of a Cancellara? I am skeptical to say the least.