Is this the answer to doping?

mountainrman

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Oct 17, 2012
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Just flying a kite here....

Things we know.
(i) Almost every attempt to manipulate blood by EPO or transfusions have transitional changes in blood readings.
(ii) The "glow" times and infrequent testing mean it is possible to hide transitional values.
(iii) It is hard to increase the rate of testing because of the difficulties in taking and process samples.

Idea
(i) Chipping is in essence a safe process - so animals are traced by insertion of a chip under the skin. There do not appear to be side effects that I know of.
(ii) Biosensors ( I was involved in the technology 15 years ago, were even then good at sniffing specific chemicals (and no doubt other biophysical properties could be measured too)

So..
If you wants to be a pro rider.

(i) You have a bionsensor chip implanted.
(ii) It measures biophysical properties (like blood cell count densities, pressures, sniffs for specific chemicals)
(ii) It is scanned remotely at intervals along a race, much like timing chips are on marathons.
(iiii)All serious training venues have a scanner.
(iv) Riders are provided with a remotely interrogated scanning box in the places they live, which they can carry with them if they travel. Downloaded when they are near a WIFI
(v) So blood passports are no longer a few readings a year, they are twice a day - inded could be every hour, stored on the chip until downloaded, the information downloaded once a day.
(vi) Riders who say "no" are subjected to more frequent blood and urine tests they pay for...they would soon get the point - this is much cheaper.
(vii) Encode the readings so riders cannot see their own test data..

Drug testing 24/7 = I am sure the technology can be done.

Question is .
Assuming it WAS possible...
(i) Is it too much of an intrusion of privacy?
(ii) Are the lifestyle constraints (seemingly few) it would impose practical?
(iii) How could it be cheated?
(iv) What then would be the process for a "positive"

My suggestion
(i) Develop it - test it in animals. It may take a couple of years, but animal testing is not a great issue because it should not harm the animal.
(ii) Trial it, and after a year of riders evaluating it.
(iii) Make it compulsory on every grand tour.
You can say "no", it is up to you...you just don't get to ride a grand tour if you do!

Discuss.
It needs a year 2012 solution, not a throwback to 1995
If it was simply monitoring haematocrit, internally optically..that would be a good start.
****ing in bottles and taking blood samples should be a thing of the past! EXCEPT to confirm other results. Ie if haemocrit has jumped..

Stupid idea? Worth thinking about?
Pro riders - if all it was was a chip under the skin - would you object to the principle, so long as you did not have to "do anything" other than pass near a scanner occasionally to upload the information?
 
Aug 18, 2009
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Riders would never have that for 2 reasons:

1) It would work.

2) It's pretty intrusive.

Serious post.
 
Sep 3, 2012
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I love the idea, it would work depending on the chip capabilities. I don't how these biosensor chips measure molecular content(i assumed by electronics?), certainly not anything close to mass spectrometry. The technology doesn't exist to do large metabolite profiles or anything like that, but i'm sure it could measure some stuff concerned blood like viscosity, etc which may be calibrated against doping and non-doping parameters.

Besides the anti-doping effect, i can see it as a very powerful training tool. If you have 24 access to certain physiological data which influences values that determine performance, you could monitor EVERYTHING. Drink too much caffiene? see the negative effect in performance by comparing physiological parameters without caffeine with wattages, heartrate, etc to those of with excess caffeine. Every rider could train their physiology at a molecular level. That's the scientist in me speaking however. It's super invasive I think, but similar things happen with long haul truckers in the US, and it has made the roads safer. Their 'whereabouts' program(GPS on a truck) prevents truckers from speeding up and driving 20+ hours, or doing it without speed.
 
hello there................

hello there................truckers don't have inbedded chip

it would never be accepted

why not go for the simple answer.....make testing independant/effective
......make penalties tougher
......create a 'no doping' culture
 
Sep 3, 2012
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ebandit said:
hello there................truckers don't have inbedded chip
no but they're vehicles are tracked by GPS, which is the same principal as an 24/7 whereabouts program when they are working..
 
Is the technology available? I don't think so at the moment.
Even if they develop the technology it would be extremely costly too. Don't think the UCI could afford that.

And lastly the riders will never accept that.
 
Jul 10, 2010
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Having a chip implanted in your body is not exactly the "same principle" as having a GPS on your vehicle. There are other aspects at work besides the mechanical similarity of broadcasting data.

An interesting idea, I don't think it will ever happen. People will not accept it.
 
Hopefully the riders would say no, but I am afraid some would feel forced into it. This is way, way too radical and I have a hard time believing this proposal would not be equal to a human rights violation.

And Ferrari would possibly develop an idea to circumvent the chip anyway..

There's definately other ways to prevent doping that don't force riders to succumb to these draconian measures.
 
I don't think data collection is as much of a problem as its analysis and route of action. All the implicating data in the world can be collected, but it still comes down to committees with personal biases doing the analysis and judgements.

Fewer warnings, tip offs, brushings aside, and targeting/scapegoating are key to a more effective system.
 
The kind of doping that goes on in Pro Cycling does not need a technology solution.

1. Let WADA open anti-doping cases. UCI is the very, very, very bad actor in the charade.
2. Back test samples 5 years. Any positives get current penalties and any results since the positive eliminated.
 
Apr 20, 2009
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hiero2 said:
An interesting idea, I don't think it will ever happen. People will not accept it.
I don't see why not. It's less intrusive than the current whereabouts system and that was accepted. I expect that a lot of athletes will prefer a small incision and 2 stitches for having to account for their whereabouts 24/7.

The bigger problem is if it can work.
 
Jul 10, 2012
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Douglas Adams fans know that its pointless to know the answer to a question without first knowing what the question is.

That is the only thing that came to mind when I read the words "Is this the answer to doping?"

I know that what I have just written isn't helping anything in regards to ridding the world of doping in sports but I am just hoping that at least one person who reads this forum read the words "Douglas Adams" and smiled.

And while we are getting rid of yellow wristbands, do you think we could finally also do away with digital watches?
 

mountainrman

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Oct 17, 2012
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There are clearly separable issues here.

1/ Technology and what is measured - there are a variety of documents around the web on biosensors for those interested in state of the art.
2/ Regulatory testing to use in vivo
3/ Proof that it does not screw up
4/ Practical Impact on rider
5/ Convincing all to adopt it.
6/ Procedures around suspicious values
7/ Use in vitro to allow "on the spot" tests, (rather like a breathalyzer but using "other fluids"!)
8/ Considering ways it could be cheated.
But if there were hidden collectors on all the grand tour key climbs out of season. It might be obvious if the "wrong person" was wearing it.

Interesting that most of the responses centre around 4 and 5 "riders would refuse" - If it had little or no impact, you have to question why?

And of course 6/ a name.

Would it have to be called "Dopestrong"
 

mountainrman

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Oct 17, 2012
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DirtyWorks said:
The kind of doping that goes on in Pro Cycling does not need a technology solution.

1. Let WADA open anti-doping cases. UCI is the very, very, very bad actor in the charade.
2. Back test samples 5 years. Any positives get current penalties and any results since the positive eliminated.

Agree with both, but it does not manage the problem of current athletes knowing enough about glow times to make sure the samples contain no positive traces. In essence - there are too few samples.
 
Jul 4, 2011
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ebandit said:
why not go for the simple answer
......make testing independant/effective
......make penalties tougher
......create a 'no doping' culture
This is where it needs to, and can start. Obviously it needs to grow a bit deeper than this, but this is the best and most realistic way to start. It's really that simple.......not to rocky and bullwinkle though.
 
(Posting this here because it's sorta related to what can be done, and then I won't have to start a new thread...)

Okay, this might be so simple it's already been mentioned.

What I'm proposing is some sort of Three Strikes System, which would work somewhat like the following:

First Doping Offence: Two Year Suspension! Upon returning the rider would be oblighed to sign an 'Anti-Doping Statement' and be subjected to more frequent testing than other riders.

Second Doping Offence: Six Year Suspension! Upon returning the rider would be oblighed to swear and oath against doping in court, be subjected to even more testing, and not allowed to ride on WT-level for two years.

Third Doping Offence: OUT! Rider would not even be allowed to sweep the floors at the local team's HQ...
 
Apr 3, 2011
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well, if this was introduced 10 years ago, Dr. Lamborghini & Uniballer would just hire a hacker to make the chip produce right values
 
May 27, 2012
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mountainrman said:
Stupid idea?
Did you really need to ask that question? <- Did I really need to ask that question? <- Are you capable of discerning the true meaning of that question? <-Why am I even bothering to engage you?
 
Jul 26, 2012
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An interesting idea but couldn't you just stick the chip up someone else's bum until it came to competition time when you stick it back up your own?

In a manner of speaking, of course.
 
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