Is UAE Over the Top?

[Ruklaw]

Not normal is the new normal.

 

[Pozzovivo]

Pablo Torres certaintly over the top today.

 

[Tim Cahill]

Just to note for future self in 5 years time when the inevitable debate happens;

No, Torres wasn't some insane junior prodigy before he met Matxin and Gianetti. I don't want to hear about him lapping riders 10 years his senior when he was a 9 year old because he wasn't.

 

[Pozzovivo]

Just to note for future self in 5 years time when the inevitable debate happens;

No, Torres wasn't some insane junior prodigy before he met Matxin and Gianetti. I don't want to hear about him lapping riders 10 years his senior when he was a 9 year old because he wasn't.

Development and ability level is not linear. How good someone is compared to others at one early point is not determining "who should be where" at a later stage. Some people make huge leaps for a number of different reasons at different ages. Froome had some potential but was hardly a great rider early on. Won 7 GT's.

 

[E_F_]

Froome had some potential but was hardly a great rider early on. Won 7 GT's.

Not the best example...

 

[Pozzovivo]

Not the best example...

Sure but do you think it is a bad example?

 

[pastronef]

Not the best example...

Roglic

 

[Tim Cahill]

Development and ability level is not linear. How good someone is compared to others at one early point is not determining "who should be where" at a later stage. Some people make huge leaps for a number of different reasons at different ages. Froome had some potential but was hardly a great rider early on. Won 7 GT's.

Development isn't linear of course but what is interesting here is the rate of change and what the upper limit that falls within 'humanely possible development within a specific timeframe' is.

26th in Rwanda in February, useful but unremarkable domestique for riders like Ulissi/Del Toro etc in Abruzzo then Asturias. All reasonable displays from an 18 year old talented climber, in line with what he achieved in the juniors the prior year. It's the 2 month gap followed by 2nd in Giro Next Gen and what we saw today that obviously concerns me. How an 18 year old can go from midpack domestique to one putting out a physiological display comparable to Pogacar on Monte Grappa or Vingegaard on Loze (stages/context different I know) doesn't seem realistic to me without heavy pharmacological assistance. Regardless of how poor his training or nutrition might've been before or how young he is, you still need to put in serious, long-term work to increase your power-profile to that level, but he seems do have just done it in a short couple of months.

In absence of hard evidence it's just speculation I know, the forum is more a place to vent at the moment though there is a lot of smoke and interesting performances to talk about with increasing regularity. Fwiw I didn't believe Froome either, though the old Sky performances seem to be ageing pretty well looking at the current crop.

 

[Pozzovivo]

Development isn't linear of course but what is interesting here is the rate of change and what the upper limit that falls within 'humanely possible development within a specific timeframe' is.

26th in Rwanda in February, useful but unremarkable domestique for riders like Ulissi/Del Toro etc in Abruzzo then Asturias. All reasonable displays from an 18 year old talented climber, in line with what he achieved in the juniors the prior year. It's the 2 month gap followed by 2nd in Giro Next Gen and what we saw today that obviously concerns me. How an 18 year old can go from midpack domestique to one putting out a physiological display comparable to Pogacar on Monte Grappa or Vingegaard on Loze (stages/context different I know) doesn't seem realistic to me without heavy pharmacological assistance. Regardless of how poor his training or nutrition might've been before or how young he is, you still need to put in serious, long-term work to increase your power-profile to that level, but he seems do have just done it in a short couple of months.

In absence of hard evidence it's just speculation I know, the forum is more a place to vent at the moment though there is a lot of smoke and interesting performances to talk about with increasing regularity. Fwiw I didn't believe Froome either, though the old Sky performances seem to be ageing pretty well looking at the current crop.

Well said. Can't disagree. I'm also extremely concerned by this performance by Torres. And Pog and Vingegaards performances lately. Gives me a bad taste and i'm a believer in this sport in general. Much more than other sport who don't take doping even remotely seriously.

I believe Froomie was "basically clean" meaning cutting corners with TUE's that he didn't really need like Wiggins etc, but no hard core stuff. The whole Freeman case stinks *** though...

 

[Netserk]

and i'm a believer in this sport in general.

Don't be, when it comes to doping.

Froome obviously used blood doping. It's as obvious as Indurain using EPO.

 

[Pozzovivo]

Don't be, when it comes to doping.

Froome obviously used blood doping. It's as obvious as Indurain using EPO.

It really isn't that obvious at all. Do you have any evidence or arguments for that?

Indurain used EPO of course. The 90's playbook was wicked.

 

[Pozzovivo]

Don't be, when it comes to doping.

Froome obviously used blood doping. It's as obvious as Indurain using EPO.

Do you believe Pog, Vingegaard and Remco are using PED?

 

[Pozzovivo]

Roglic

Came to the sport late. The best example would be someone who rode U23 and was good but steadily progressed and then took a big leap up. Maybe Vingegaard?

 

[Netserk]

It really isn't that obvious at all. Do you have any evidence or arguments for that?

Indurain used EPO of course. The 90's playbook was wicked.

It's the same argument as for Indurain. Knowledge about cycling and how the athlete has performed. You don't win the biggest races in cycling without some kind of blood doping ever since they started riding faster than ever before in the early 90's.

Do you believe Pog, Vingegaard and Remco are using PED?

Oh, absolutely. I'm at the point now where I even doubt if there was a single clean rider at the start of the Tour this year. Cycling is now more similar to the mid-90's in that regard than it has been at any other point this century.

 

[Pozzovivo]

It's the same argument as for Indurain. Knowledge about cycling and how the athlete has performed. You don't win the biggest races in cycling without some kind of blood doping ever since they started riding faster than ever before in the early 90's.

Oh, absolutely. I'm at the point now where I even doubt if there was a single clean rider at the start of the Tour this year. Cycling is now more similar to the mid-90's in that regard than it has been at any other point this century.

I wholeheartedly disagree with all respect. To compare the speed and performances from 30 years ago to today's is very difficult. Of course the athletes are much better today. It's an elite performance sport now.

No way they are infusing blood bags or doing epo during the tour this year. I'm more a believer in teams like visma and UAE using methods that are not currently banned by uci and wada bc they don't know about them or don't have any way of controlling them so they don't even try to ban them to keep face.

The peloton is basically clean imo.

How can young riders from small teams all of a sudden compete straight out of u23? Did Lenny Martinez join a sophisticated doping program as a 19 year old and climb with the best bc of that? Cycling is the only sport that actually tests a lot and keep riders checked within reason in the bio-passport.

The crazy good performanes lately are concerning me too. I really hope Pog and Vinge are clean but maybe not. I believe in 98% of the riders.

Also, no arguments for why froomie was blood doping?

 

[Samu Cuenca]

Roglic

Roglič wasn't a great junior, but he had also already suffered from crashes at this period of time. Being from the same generation as the wonderkid Remco Evenepoel Gregor Schlierenzauer also made it hard for him to get a big breakthrough right away, although it did eventually happen for the older Chris Horner and Geraint Thomas Severin Freund and Kamil Stoch. Roglič was also later upstaged by his younger countryman Tadej Pogačar Peter Prevc, who managed to win most of the biggest competitions around.

 

[Ilmaestro99]

The peloton is basically clean imo.

Hahahaahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

 

[pastronef]

Hahahaahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

it's easier than it looks. it's about defining what's "clean".

 

[Pozzovivo]

Hahahaahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

Why do you laugh at me? Can't you just make your arguments for why i'm wrong. I'll actually like to know more.

 

[pastronef]

I wholeheartedly disagree with all respect. To compare the speed and performances from 30 years ago to today's is very difficult. Of course the athletes are much better today. It's an elite performance sport now.

No way they are infusing blood bags or doing epo during the tour this year. I'm more a believer in teams like visma and UAE using methods that are not currently banned by uci and wada bc they don't know about them or don't have any way of controlling them so they don't even try to ban them to keep face.

The peloton is basically clean imo.

How can young riders from small teams all of a sudden compete straight out of u23? Did Lenny Martinez join a sophisticated doping program as a 19 year old and climb with the best bc of that? Cycling is the only sport that actually tests a lot and keep riders checked within reason in the bio-passport.

The crazy good performanes lately are concerning me too. I really hope Pog and Vinge are clean but maybe not. I believe in 98% of the riders.

Also, no arguments for why froomie was blood doping?

Martinez did beat Froome's time on Ventoux (while riding for the Holy Church of FDJ)

 

[Pozzovivo]

it's easier than it looks. it's about defining what's "clean".

The definition is not using substances or methods that are banned by Wada and or the UCI.

 

[Pozzovivo]

Martinez did beat Froome's time on Ventoux (while riding for the Holy Church of FDJ)

French teams do have a much better track record than spanish or italian teams. Doesen't make them more catholic than the pope but it is nevertheless true.

 

[Netserk]

I wholeheartedly disagree with all respect. To compare the speed and performances from 30 years ago to today's is very difficult. Of course the athletes are much better today. It's an elite performance sport now.

No way they are infusing blood bags or doing epo during the tour this year. I'm more a believer in teams like visma and UAE using methods that are not currently banned by uci and wada bc they don't know about them or don't have any way of controlling them so they don't even try to ban them to keep face.

The peloton is basically clean imo.

How can young riders from small teams all of a sudden compete straight out of u23? Did Lenny Martinez join a sophisticated doping program as a 19 year old and climb with the best bc of that? Cycling is the only sport that actually tests a lot and keep riders checked within reason in the bio-passport.

The crazy good performanes lately are concerning me too. I really hope Pog and Vinge are clean but maybe not. I believe in 98% of the riders.

Also, no arguments for why froomie was blood doping?

Quite a lot of riders have spilled the beans over the years, but unfortunately, the omerta has returned. So even a low level rider like Preidler who has admitted that he used blood transfusions has not said much to the public. But it's public info what was going on in the 00's, and high profile riders continued getting busted for a while afterwards, giving us some insight into the methods of the day.

I don't know what exact methods are used now, but I have no doubt that Martinez doped as a teenager, yes.

Froome went from doing nothing and without a contract, deemed the least talented rider on his team to winning* a GT overnight. That takes an injection of form. The former winner of that Vuelta was busted for blood doping, I hope you know?

 

[Pozzovivo]

Quite a lot of riders have spilled the beans over the years, but unfortunately, the omerta has returned. So even a low level rider like Preidler who has admitted that he used blood transfusions has not said much to the public. But it's public info what was going on in the 00's, and high profile riders continued getting busted for a while, giving us some insight into the methods of the day.

I don't know what exact methods are used now, but I have no doubt that Martinez doped as a teenager, yes.

Froome went from doing nothing and without a contract, deemed the least talented rider on his team to winning* a GT overnight. That takes an injection of form. The former winner of that Vuelta was busted for blood doping, I hope you know?

But not a single high profile rider have been caught recently, and not a single clean rider who surely must have learned that this whole juiced up peloton that supposedly were riding clean said anything?? Very unlikely. In the 90's and 00's there were stories all the time. Now nothing.

Lenny doping as a teenager is wild! Zero evidence. None.

I must say that the froome reincarnation to superman was very strange to watch. Also for me (a naive idiot). Then again, he was simlply better than bardet and quintana on TT's, and he had an extremely strong team, and having a huge advantage in terms of legal performance methods. The fact that he won is not that wild. He maybe just was the tallest pygmy at that time perhaps?

 

[peterfin]

There will always be doping in the peleton but the question is if it is systematic, widespread and effective. In the era of EPO and blood doping this was absolutely the case. Until last year we can fairly say that there was not enough evidence to make the case. This year, exceptional progress of some riders and performances that seem to defy physical constraints are at least suspicious. It may be too early for the stories to surface but if it's doping we will hear about it soon enough. I cannot imagine that - if it is systematic and widespread - it can be hidden for long. The smartphone is everywhere.