Is UAE Over the Top?

[AlpRaid]

..again, the main thing is the absolute ease with which Pog (and now the rest of UAE, in relative terms) dominate, and do so easily in 24-25. Before that, sure, Pog was strong, even the best, but the utter ease in dominating was not there. Suddenly in 2024 on he became the long-raid guy, and now gifting team-mates, and laughing and smiling at the end of a race when others are dying, mouths agape.

it is very, very reminiscent of armstrong and even breakthrough EPO-fueled performances (Chiappucci at Sestrieres in 1992).

 

[Psycat]

Well, that's the thing about UAE, isn't it? Matxin and Gianetti are unapologetic because they don't think they've done anything wrong. Sure, they had some 'bad eggs, but who hadn't (lol x 1000)

I mean, who knows if the same riders would be doing as well on other teams (i.e. if UAE had never existed)? But I just cannot get on board with the characters running or heavily involved with that team.

Perhaps Johan and Lance can make a comeback?

Speaking of Lance i feel like he is getting more and more traction. Like the huge anti doping rider Sir Bradley Wiggins is now fine with doing podcasts and stuff with him.

 

[AlpRaid]

Speaking of Lance i feel like he is getting more and more traction. Like the huge anti doping rider Sir Bradley Wiggins is now fine with doing podcasts and stuff with him.

not with me. I have no idea why anyone would use him or Bruyneel for reference for anything to do with cycling at all, other than to point out how blood vector doping can turn the natural hierarchy on its head.

 

[proffate]

Vine...?

Seriously!?

On par with TopGanna on a pan flat TT.

The water is powerful over at UAE.

If he can rival TopGanna on pan flat, are we then looking at the next ITT World Champ, since he will presumably benefit from the hilly course.

Just goes to show it is the entire team that has had a jump.

Ganna seems quite a ways off his top form and Vine has been crushing TTs for a while, so whatever he's on is not new. But sure, another top 5 wcitt seems likely.

 

[AlpRaid]

Ganna seems quite a ways off his top form and Vine has been crushing TTs for a while, so whatever he's on is not new. But sure, another top 5 wcitt seems likely.

but Ganna's time was considered absolutely crushing...until Vine.

Vine could have potentially beaten Remco last year at the Worlds ITT, but crashed, I think (?).

So again, since 24, some results that appear supercharged, by yet another rider on that one team, run by one of the most doped riders, who has managed riders and teams with systemic doping previously.

I also remember Bahrain suddenly becoming ridiculously dominant for about one season. Then two police raids later, they have completely fallen off the map in comparison.

 

[proffate]

but Ganna's time was considered absolutely crushing...until Vine.

Vine could have potentially beaten Remco last year at the Worlds ITT, but crashed, I think (?).

So again, since 24, some results that appear supercharged, by yet another rider on that one team, run by one of the most doped riders, who has managed riders and teams with systemic doping previously.

I also remember Bahrain suddenly becoming ridiculously dominant for about one season. Then two police raids later, they have completely fallen off the map in comparison.

I don't think the comparison to Bahrain is all that apt, as they don't seem to have the same budget. (Not that these things are public information, I think?) UAE has a huge budget and is not afraid to use it. In a sense, doping is the cheapest way to improve performance, as EPO is not all that expensive. Of course, you have to pay off doctors or testers to make sure you don't get caught or reprimanded like Bahrain. But it actually seems like one of the riskier ways to get ahead if you have infinite shekels to throw at the problem. Instead, you offer mega money to the guys who test the best on the ergobike, which includes Vine, King of Zwift, and you spend a lot on wind tunnels and other equipment tweaks. Then you dope only the minimum amount necessary to achieve your goal. The fact that a UAE bro is able to be highly competitive at TTs is perhaps the worst* evidence that they are doping (more than the other teams)...

If you are complaining because he's kind of a late bloomer (2024 being Vine's 28th year on Earth), I think that's explained by the learning curve of riding around in the (semi) pro peloton, which he started doing about a decade later than most of his colleagues. (Heck, forget the peloton, the man can still barely get round a TT course with the rubber side down. And he claims he would have won the Vuelta TT if he didn't botch the first corner.)

Vine's production in terms of UCI points actually did not spike in 2024, FWIW. We also don't have a pre-UAE Vine to compare against.

*So what is better evidence, IMO? Riders like Domen Novak, who you've never seen or heard of before they're on UAE, suddenly riding with the strength of 10 men in humble service of their leaders. Novak is never going to draw as much public scrutiny because he's not the one winning, if he did get busted they could throw him under the bus, and no one can even really estimate his w/kg because his most crucial performances are not up the Angliru. Of course most of the time they're gonna hire someone who's more of a household name like Pollitt or Wellens to be the daily breakaway crusher, which will raise even fewer eyebrows, but the fact remains that it's impossible to estimate how strong these riders "should" be at their given role, which gives UAE more leeway to dope them.

 

[Cookster15]

Riders like Domen Novak, who you've never seen or heard of before they're on UAE, suddenly riding with the strength of 10 men in humble service of their leaders

I wouldn't go that far. For example, Domen Novak was notably very strong on stage 20 of the 2022 Giro the day Hindley effectively won that race - riding for Bahrain. And while I don't doubt UAE are doping I see similar complaints today as when Sky rose in 2011-2012. Money is why.

 

[Cookster15]

Also I note Jay Vine came to prominence in 2022 when he won two MTFs in the Vuelta when he was still riding for Alpecin. And his highest rating on PCS is for his TT.

 

[Mayomaniac]

I wouldn't go that far. For example, Domen Novak was notably very strong on stage 20 of the 2022 Giro the day Hindley effectively won that race - riding for Bahrain. And while I don't doubt UAE are doping I see similar complaints today as when Sky rose in 2011-2012. Money is why.

Domen Novak made a big leap forwards when all of Bahrain was suddenly flying 2020-22.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

Domen Novak made a big leap forwards when all of Bahrain was suddenly flying 2020-22.

Bahrain was so good back in 2021 that Mark Padun (after thermonuclear Dauphine performances) didn't make it to the Tour. Their only chance to beat Pogacar at the Tour was gone.

 

[Netserk]

Bahrain was so good back in 2021 that Mark Padun (after thermonuclear Dauphine performances) didn't make it to the Tour. Their only chance to beat Pogacar at the Tour was gone.

And the crash in the first week robbed them of the Giro ...

At least they somehow managed to podium the Vuelta with Haig of all people.

 

[Fatclimber]

3 of the top 5 in world champs ITT including the TT powerhouse: Del Toro….

 

[Stablo]

Lol at the Gianettis Vampires😂

 

[Mayomaniac]

"You went full Gewiss, you never go full Gewiss!"

 

[noob]

I don't know where to even write this. But I realized there was a thread with the title. Is UAE over the top?

UAE is a team with the name of a country that doesn't even include a native cyclist. UCI Lappartient wants to start a branch of UCI in UAE. UAE itself doesn't still have even one WT cyclist.

It's not just fishy. I don't think I can watch cycling anymore.

 

[Ilmaestro99]

At least we will always have Paul double vs Victor langelotti vs Cain ujtebrockes in the 1.1s

 

[the delgados]

I don't know where to even write this. But I realized there was a thread with the title. Is UAE over the top?

UAE is a team with the name of a country that doesn't even include a native cyclist. UCI Lappartient wants to start a branch of UCI in UAE. UAE itself doesn't still have even one WT cyclist.

It's not just fishy. I don't think I can watch cycling anymore.

It's kinda fun when you see it as comedy.
Pogacar launching from 100 km and taking his side-kicks along for a ride before bidding them farewell is funny, but maybe that's just me. Guy should have charged them for taking a tour around the city before dropping them off at their destination.

 

[noob]

It's kinda fun when you see it as comedy.
Pogacar launching from 100 km and taking his side-kicks along for a ride before bidding them farewell is funny, but maybe that's just me. Guy should have charged them for taking a tour around the city before dropping them off at their destination.

I had to switch off the TV, or I'd throw it out the window in a meltdown (ok I've never done that and probably wouldn't either but it was fun to vision 🤣). But yeah a comedy it is. Black comedy style. 🤣

 

[ashhutch1997]

I don't know where to even write this. But I realized there was a thread with the title. Is UAE over the top?

UAE is a team with the name of a country that doesn't even include a native cyclist. UCI Lappartient wants to start a branch of UCI in UAE. UAE itself doesn't still have even one WT cyclist.

It's not just fishy. I don't think I can watch cycling anymore.

It certainly made my decision to not pay £30 a month for TNT sports much easier, the sport is dying IMO, the low viewing figures from this years TDF show that people are done with this farce.

 

[the delgados]

Apparently Isaac del Toro lost the wheel because he had stomach problems since arriving in Rwanda seven days ago. That's gotta hurt. Yet he managed to drop everyone and hitch a ride with Pogi-motocar after 160 km's of racing.
I hope he enjoyed the spectacle before going poopy in his pants.
Seriously, someone on their PR team has to come up with a better narrative than the stomach issue BS.

 

[Ripper]

Apparently Isaac del Toro lost the wheel because he had stomach problems since arriving in Rwanda seven days ago. That's gotta hurt. Yet he managed to drop everyone and hitch a ride with Pogi-motocar after 160 km's of racing.
I hope he enjoyed the spectacle before going poopy in his pants.
Seriously, someone on their PR team has to come up with a better narrative than the stomach issue BS.

Well, he still came in top 10 with stomach issues in a highly attritional race. So I actually believe the stomach issues. Could you imagine if he had not had any?

Random comment - FWIW, there are absolutely no incentives for other teams or riders to 'speak out' about anything unless they have absolute proof. If they did so without that they would get slammed by pretty much everyone, and who knows what kind of nastiness might come their way via UAE? I mean, Gianetti has lawyered up to address previous issues about his past. I think the combined aspects of who is in charge make the consequences of speaking up in a targeted way pretty dang nasty. As for even calling into question what is going on? Well the French did that already and basically got piled on for having sour grapes.

Basically, lots of disincentives for looking too closely at what is happening. Not a lot to gain. It's just entertainment ... amiright!!!!!????

 

[Cookster15]

Random comment - FWIW, there are absolutely no incentives for other teams or riders to 'speak out' about anything unless they have absolute proof. If they did so without that they would get slammed by pretty much everyone, and who knows what kind of nastiness might come their way via UAE? I mean, Gianetti has lawyered up to address previous issues about his past. I think the combined aspects of who is in charge make the consequences of speaking up in a targeted way pretty dang nasty. As for even calling into question what is going on? Well the French did that already and basically got piled on for having sour grapes.

So rival riders, teams and sponsors are not losing out? Sounds like Armstrong but this is also a little defeatist IMO. Defeatism is what UAE would be relying upon. But if I am Evenepoel, Red Bull or Visma I'd be more than peeved.

There is nothing stopping another David Walsh. There is also nothing stopping rival teams lobbying the UCI behind closed doors for stronger analysis of Pogi's blood samples.

Basically, lots of disincentives for looking too closely at what is happening. Not a lot to gain. It's just entertainment

There are many millions of dollars / Euros in global exposure by rival teams and riders to gain - exactly the reason why UAE are interested. e.g. Red Bull are in Formula 1, I think they would rival UAE, oil money or not. If I am Red Bull I would not be happy to sponsor minor placings behind someone who has an unfair advantage.

 

[ChewbaccaDefense]

Yes
<I thought every response to this thread should be "Yes">

 

[Ripper]

Yes
<I thought every response to this thread should be "Yes">

Pretty much!!

 

[Ripper]

So rival riders, teams and sponsors are not losing out? Sounds like Armstrong but this is also a little defeatist IMO. Defeatism is what UAE would be relying upon. But if I am Evenepoel, Red Bull or Visma I'd be more than peeved.

There is nothing stopping another David Walsh. There is also nothing stopping rival teams lobbying the UCI behind closed doors for stronger analysis of Pogi's blood samples.



There are many millions of dollars / Euros in global exposure by rival teams and riders to gain - exactly the reason why UAE are interested. e.g. Red Bull are in Formula 1, I think they would rival UAE, oil money or not. If I am Red Bull I would not be happy to sponsor minor placings behind someone who has an unfair advantage.

Not so much me being defeatist as looking at the psychology/human behaviour patterns one could expect in these circumstances. It is not a good look to claim your competitors are cheating without there being absolute proof (and you had better hope you have not skeletons in your own closet). Even then ... better to have the governing body do it. And spying on your competitors to see what they're up to? Don't get caught 'cause that looks even worse! And I don't think for a second that UAE and Gianetti would hold back ... I don't know how bad they could be, but I would not want to see it tested.

Who knows what aspersions are cast behind closed doors or behind the scenes lobbying.

Finally, Armstrong and US Postal were filthy dirty in a cesspool culture of widespread cheating (so let's say a bad situation), and even in those circumstances, we had something like 1-2 reporters seriously digging and Armstrong was only publicly outed/busted when he went for the silly comeback.

Just my opinion, but I would say it makes it very difficult for the UCI or others to challenge the cred. of the golden child for an insanely wealthy and well connected ownership.

The last time I spoke with a pro or former pro and that person defended Pogacar was immediately prior to 2024 going totally nuts at the TdF. Since then it has gotten a quite a bit quieter