Is Walsh on the Sky bandwagon?

[blackcat]

caloric deficit

AKA BONKING & HUNGER FLAT

no way on can hit potential and new high in FTP and at once be hunger flat and bonking

 

[Dear Wiggo]

caloric deficit

AKA BONKING & HUNGER FLAT

no way on can hit potential and new high in FTP and at once be hunger flat and bonking

1kg/week for 5 weeks is quite doable, but am in agreeance that probably not something you do in the build up to the Tour between April and July, having raced already. Pre-season base training, no problems.

It's interesting looking at Kennaugh's race program.

27/04/2013 Romandie finishes
4.1 weeks
26/05/2013 Bayern-Rundfahrt
1 week
2/06/2013 Dauphine starts
2 weeks
23/06/2013 UK RR champs
1 week
29/06/2013 Tour de France

I'm impressed he managed to lose 5kg in those between race periods. Google says

Height: 1.74 m
Weight: 64 kg

So he was at 69 and dropped to 64 or worse at 64 and dropped to 59? Either way, that's a 7+% weight drop. Very impressive.

 

[Ferminal]

Given how terrible he was until June it doesn't seem that unreal, he could have been really out of shape.

But then again, he turned things around very quickly before the Dauphine, and by the end/after the Tour he was junk again. I doubt he lost much weight between the Dauphine and Tour as his climbing didn't improve massively.

I expect he will get things right in 2014, and will see better in both absolute terms and consistency.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Given how terrible he was until June it doesn't seem that unreal, he could have been really out of shape.

Possibly. Would make a mockery of the team Sky "marginal gains" theory though, surely? Coaches and doctors and magician Kerrison letting someone race out of shape? Seems kinda weird given the mantra in 2012 of "train to train and race to win". No more riding into form during races, etc, apparently. Reverse periodisation and something to do with the gears and rolling resistance and all that. But this bloke here is gonna race fat.

 

[Ferminal]

When they're good it's due to the magical powers of Sky's coaching.

When they're bad it's because the individual is lazy and uncommitted.

 

[thehog]

1kg/week for 5 weeks is quite doable, but am in agreeance that probably not something you do in the build up to the Tour between April and July, having raced already. Pre-season base training, no problems.

It's interesting looking at Kennaugh's race program.

27/04/2013 Romandie finishes
4.1 weeks
26/05/2013 Bayern-Rundfahrt
1 week
2/06/2013 Dauphine starts
2 weeks
23/06/2013 UK RR champs
1 week
29/06/2013 Tour de France

I'm impressed he managed to lose 5kg in those between race periods. Google says

Height: 1.74 m
Weight: 64 kg

So he was at 69 and dropped to 64 or worse at 64 and dropped to 59? Either way, that's a 7+% weight drop. Very impressive.

That it beyond human. A middleweight boxer would starve himself, sit in the sauna and train on no food for 2 days to drop 1kg.

Sky can kick 5kgs whilst racing hard, performing and already at a anaemic body weight.

Boggles zee mind.

If all real this is the stuff Walsh should have been writing about. Not a yellow butterfly.

 

[blackcat]

1kg/week for 5 weeks is quite doable, but am in agreeance that probably not something you do in the build up to the Tour between April and July, having raced already. Pre-season base training, no problems.

It's interesting looking at Kennaugh's race program.

27/04/2013 Romandie finishes
4.1 weeks
26/05/2013 Bayern-Rundfahrt
1 week
2/06/2013 Dauphine starts
2 weeks
23/06/2013 UK RR champs
1 week
29/06/2013 Tour de France

I'm impressed he managed to lose 5kg in those between race periods. Google says

Height: 1.74 m
Weight: 64 kg

So he was at 69 and dropped to 64 or worse at 64 and dropped to 59? Either way, that's a 7+% weight drop. Very impressive.

rule of thumb, a TdF rider will come out ~3kg lighter after three weeks. And they all talk about it being a great prep for something like Worlds in the next weeks (see: Vuelta now with the calendar).

But the athletes are looking at hitting new personal bests with power, or power to weight. Ok, the final metric, rebuts my contention, and Wiggins could lost 5% FTP and lose 10% weight and be a much better Tour rider.

And it is also unhealthy to be walking around at Rasmussen levels of bf. Much more susceptible to a myriad of risks, that Armstrong always avoided, to his credit.

 

[blackcat]

That it beyond human. A middleweight boxer would starve himself, sit in the sauna and train on no food for 2 days to drop 1kg.

Sky can kick 5kgs whilst racing hard, performing and already at a anaemic body weight.

Boggles zee mind.

If all real this is the stuff Walsh should have been writing about. Not a yellow butterfly.

but have you seen the new MMA fighters, and how much they cut in the last week Hog.

Some circa 90kg fighters, now cut up to 8kg in the last week.

It is the new drugs, these designer peptides. Clen is old hat for cutting.

This is why the pro bodybuilders now walk around about 10% above competition weight, and in good enough shape they can drop a few percentage, year round, for those feature articles and photo sessions for the muscle meathead mags.

In the previous era, only 15 years back bodybuilders walked around about 20-25% above competition weight, and they looked nigh obese for an uneducated view, and not discerning it was actual muscle.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

rule of thumb, a TdF rider will come out ~3kg lighter after three weeks.

Not any more. Pretty sure I read an article where Wiggo lost less than a kg, and he wasn't winning.

There's no way Wiggo lost 3kg at the Tour in 2012. Nor Froome in 2013.

 

[blackcat]

yep. Wiggo and Hesjedal, they could only possibly come out heavier. you are right.


this has changed


clinic 12, in unison............

NOT NORMAL

 

[Ferminal]

Froome weighed the same every day of competition for two years.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Froome weighed the same every day of competition for two years.

For n=8 samples, innit?

 

[LaFlorecita]

yep. Wiggo and Hesjedal, they could only possibly come out heavier. you are right.


this has changed


clinic 12, in unison............

NOT NORMAL

I thought it was now the clinic 11?

 

[blackcat]

I thought it was now the clinic 11?

natural birth rate.

PRC have relaxed their one-child policy

 

[veganrob]

but have you seen the new MMA fighters, and how much they cut in the last week Hog.

Some circa 90kg fighters, now cut up to 8kg in the last week.

It is the new drugs, these designer peptides. Clen is old hat for cutting.

This is why the pro bodybuilders now walk around about 10% above competition weight, and in good enough shape they can drop a few percentage, year round, for those feature articles and photo sessions for the muscle meathead mags.

In the previous era, only 15 years back bodybuilders walked around about 20-25% above competition weight, and they looked nigh obese for an uneducated view, and not discerning it was actual muscle.

I am not sure about MMA fighters but I am sure they work the same as boxers. They would cut huge amount of weight for the weigh-in which was 2 days before the event. They would then eat everything in sight to get their weight and strength back up before fight. Only the weigh in matters.
This obviously can't work for cycling to drop 5 kg while racing and then expect a good result. This has to be experimented with in the off season to make sure a rider can keep power up as weight decreases so drastically.
Unless there is serious drugs involved.

Or marginal gains, and huge losses, like Sky

 

[More Strides than Rides]

Some people can more easily drop weigt quickly. A teammat of mine said he dropped 10 pounds in 2 weeks. No drugs, just an idiotic "im only eating salad and oatmeal" mentality. He had tied his 10k PR earlier, and went on to win a major championship after dropping weight.

For one, eat a big dinner, drink some water, and get on the scale before sitting on the toilet in the morning and you can be +2kgs. Weigh yourself two weeks later after a quality ride or race and it isnt so surprising. Second, 5kgs may have just been his annecdotal round number (just speculating, but still).

I'm 6'4" and 154. In a month I'll be 151, healthy and fit at the same time. (not that I stay try to stay that lean for very long). My point is, the ease of adding/dropping weight can vary hugely from person to person.

 

[SundayRider]

rule of thumb, a TdF rider will come out ~3kg lighter after three weeks. And they all talk about it being a great prep for something like Worlds in the next weeks (see: Vuelta now with the calendar).

But the athletes are looking at hitting new personal bests with power, or power to weight. Ok, the final metric, rebuts my contention, and Wiggins could lost 5% FTP and lose 10% weight and be a much better Tour rider.

And it is also unhealthy to be walking around at Rasmussen levels of bf. Much more susceptible to a myriad of risks, that Armstrong always avoided, to his credit.

Its Sky's dominance and speed that is shocking not their weight loss IMO. Lots of cyclists in the past have been varying builds. Someone mentioned LA not been as skinny as Rasmussen - ever heard of something called natural build and physiology. If any of you are naturally thin and have done some sort of endurance event you will no how hard it is to keep your weight up.

 

[blackcat]

I am not sure about MMA fighters but I am sure they work the same as boxers. They would cut huge amount of weight for the weigh-in which was 2 days before the event. They would then eat everything in sight to get their weight and strength back up before fight. Only the weigh in matters.
This obviously can't work for cycling to drop 5 kg while racing and then expect a good result. This has to be experimented with in the off season to make sure a rider can keep power up as weight decreases so drastically.
Unless there is serious drugs involved.

Or marginal gains, and huge losses, like Sky

like bodybuilders wish to get rid of all liquid so the skin is taught on the muscle, the MMA fighter (c: boxers) can do without water at the weigh in. Unless, the dehdration 24 for hours antecedent means a shock to the system of the body

 

[blackcat]

Its Sky's dominance and speed that is shocking not their weight loss IMO. Lots of cyclists in the past have been varying builds. Someone mentioned LA not been as skinny as Rasmussen - ever heard of something called natural build and physiology. If any of you are naturally thin and have done some sort of endurance event you will no how hard it is to keep your weight up.

completely at one with this Sunday.

 

[Briant_Gumble]

Off topic/George St. Pierre cuts from 194 pounds to 170 (11kg) over six days and then rehydrates back up to that weight in 24 hours.

http://www.mmamania.com/2011/4/28/2...s-st-pierre-could-weigh-as-much-as-193-pounds

If he does that without drugs then I'll eat my hat.

Also this guy has some of the best of the clinics much loved side effects of growth hormone pictures in all of sports.

 

[blackcat]

Off topic/George St. Pierre cuts from 194 pounds to 170 (11kg) over six days and then rehydrates back up to that weight in 24 hours.

http://www.mmamania.com/2011/4/28/2...s-st-pierre-could-weigh-as-much-as-193-pounds

If he does that without drugs then I'll eat my hat.

Also this guy has some of the best of the clinics much loved side effects of growth hormone pictures in all of sports.

yeah, his head is definitely larger than 5 years back. like all those mma fighters. The cyclists go easy on that big hgh doping, their heads never really det to the boxer/mma/barrybonds proportions. must just microdose with testo for recovery doping.

And they dont get the fontal bossing on the brow like Brock Lesnar, and other WWE rasslers like The Edge http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skull_bossing

 

[Dear Wiggo]

I put that question to Kimmage on Twitter. Waiting for a reply...

Found an answer of sorts. Kimmage didn't reply, but a lucky google search turned up this:


http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2013/jul/14/tour-de-france-team-sky-dietician

To make the point, he quotes the example of a British track rider who has lost four kilos since the London Games because his track racing muscle has gone but still has the same amount of fat on his body according to skinfold tests. "The body protects the muscles you are using – that means the thighs, calves and glutes for road cycling – hence they lose a lot of upper body weight."

I am curious how this applies to Kennaugh, who had been training and racing solely on the road for 2013. Seems a bit late in the season (April) to lose so much weight, and would make more sense to lose it pre-season and then train / adapt to the weightloss during the season.

Coggan has a blog post saying "Don't lose weight. Don't lose weight.Don't lose weight." Curiously, despite his predilection for being pedantic and precise with words, he failed to mention "too quickly" in the blog post but was adamant that's what he meant when I asked him about it.

Because, apparently, if you lose weight too quickly, you lose heart muscle very easily.

Nigel says he can prevent muscle loss through magical fish oil, but I would hasten to add that one side effect of EPO use is heart muscle growth.

I am not satisfied with the Nigel response, but it's better than nothing.

 

[Jack (6 ch)]

Thanks for asking the question and your further digging. I'm genuinely interested but still perplexed, like you, at the velodrome to road explanation when surely PK would have been on the road all year, with a road body, and not carrying all that muscle up top from January to May.

It doesn't seem like marginal gains to slim the guy down like a jockey in a sauna over a short period ahead of a key support role in your team's race of the year.

 

[blackcat]

Thanks for asking the question and your further digging. I'm genuinely interested but still perplexed, like you, at the velodrome to road explanation when surely PK would have been on the road all year, with a road body, and not carrying all that muscle up top from January to May.

It doesn't seem like marginal gains to slim the guy down like a jockey in a sauna over a short period ahead of a key support role in your team's race of the year.

the truth would be to brailsford

aggregation of marginal gains is now diminishing marginal returns

and they will miss the forest for the trees, without focusing on the few major performance inputs.

and ofcourse, as D-Q said, marginal gains accumulation aint a rounding error on a comprehensive doping program.

 

[Digger]

the truth would be to brailsford

aggregation of marginal gains is now diminishing marginal returns

and they will miss the forest for the trees, without focusing on the few major performance inputs.

and ofcourse, as D-Q said, marginal gains accumulation aint a rounding error on a comprehensive doping program.

The funny thing about the marginal gains is that I have heard from someone in the know that with their obsession on the small things...stuff like saddle material...they are genuinely losing sight of the really important stuff...like the bloody bike!!
Riders not happy with the bikes...yet they see fit to lose time on the saddle material.