Is Walsh on the Sky bandwagon?

[JimmyFingers]

I don't think he's a hypocrite, I just don't see his reasoning as formidable, thus it is fair for avid followers of the sport (regardless of their view) to not see his writings as doing anything to further our existing understandings and in any way affect our answer to the ultimate question. Again, if he has made a meaningful contribution to this topic I'm up for debating it.

I'd be very interested to know what reasoning he could put forward that are formidable enough for you and others to prove Sky are clean.

 

[GJB123]

If you notice the video the crosswinds are from the south. No surprise at 6,000 feet

Again, I suggest actually watching the video. There are plenty of road level flags and smoke that show a tail wind or a side wind. Very few that show a head wind.....Which is why Henderson said there was a strong tailwind.

If you ant to get yourself out of a hole, first thing you need to do is stop digging.

The video you linked doesn't show any substantial tailwinds. If you say it often enough you might actually start to believe it, but it doesn't make it factually correct. As I stated in my e-mail the video shows predominantly crosswinds or side wind as you call it.

 

[Race Radio]

I wonder if Walsh would have been easier on Armstrong if he had been embedded in USPS? While I doubt he would have been as vocal against Froome if he was not embedded with SKY it certainly gave him a broader understanding of what they were doing.

Would have been funny to see him at a stage yelling "Hey, why can't I go into that little white camper?"

 

[The Hitch]

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2013/jul/14/tour-de-france-2013-chris-froome-stage-15

I have ridden Ventoux dozens of times. The last part is usually a headwind.The Wind direction on the 14th was unusual,



Funny how everyone dismisses Henderson if he does not agree with their theory

What? Where did anyone dismiss Henderson

I pointed out that it's cancelled out by mollema saying it's a headwind.

You are the one dismissing a riders opinion you don't like by ignoring mollemas comments.

2 you used the word plural - riders, so I'm wondering what other riders said there was a tailwind.

 

[Race Radio]

If you ant to get yourself out of a hole, first thing you need to do is stop digging.

The video you linked doesn't show any substantial tailwinds. If you say it often enough you might actually start to believe it, but it doesn't make it factually correct. As I stated in my e-mail the video shows predominantly crosswinds or side wind as you call it.

I posted a list of where it shows tailwinds. Sorry, got bored after 5 minutes. If you think I am wrong then please create a similar list as it seems pretty clear for the vast majority of the climb there was a tailwind

 

[Netserk]

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/cycling/tour-de-france-2013-historic-climb-on-mont-ventoux-gives-us-chris-froome-with-a-view-8708080.html

On the empty moonscape of the Ventoux’s upper slopes, Froome dropped his most tenacious mountain rival, Colombian Nairo Quintana, with just over a kilometre to go. His teeth gritted against the pain and the strong headwind as, hunched over the bike as usual, the 28-year-old Briton forged ahead for a stunning solo win, a reinforced yellow jersey lead and even the unexpected bonus of the lead in the King of the Mountains competition.

 

[GJB123]

I'd be very interested to know what reasoning he could put forward that are formidable enough for you and others to prove Sky are clean.

At least he could try and explain why performance could be an indicator of dope in other era's and not in this era. He could try and ask some pertinent and critical questions of Sky and Froome regarding his sudden turn-up in performance in the Vuelta 2011. He could ask Froome about his Bilharzia and how he keeps needing treatment over and over whereas all mere mortals who are infected are cured after one treatment. He could ask to see the power data of Froome pre-Vuelta. He could ask to see Froome's test result for VO2-max (or do we believe that the team of marginal gains forgot to test Froome on that)?

Now if he asks those kinds of questions and preferably gets some satisfying answers I would be swayed.

 

[thehog]

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/cycling/tour-de-france-2013-historic-climb-on-mont-ventoux-gives-us-chris-froome-with-a-view-8708080.html


On the empty moonscape of the Ventoux’s upper slopes, Froome dropped his most tenacious mountain rival, Colombian Nairo Quintana, with just over a kilometre to go. His teeth gritted against the pain and the strong headwind as, hunched over the bike as usual, the 28-year-old Briton forged ahead for a stunning solo win, a reinforced yellow jersey lead and even the unexpected bonus of the lead in the King of the Mountains competition.

Ventoux tailwind on that very day. The wind followed the switchbacks

 

[Race Radio]

What? Where did anyone dismiss Henderson

I pointed out that it's cancelled out by mollema saying it's a headwind.

You are the one dismissing a riders opinion you don't like by ignoring mollemas comments.

2 you used the word plural - riders, so I'm wondering what other riders said there was a tailwind.

Link to Mollema saying it was a headwind the whole way up the climb?

It is pretty clear from the videos that the vast majority of the climb was a tailwind. The more exposed last 2-3km might not have been but the other 20km it is pretty obvious

 

[GJB123]

I posted a list of where it shows tailwinds. Sorry, got bored after 5 minutes. If you think I am wrong then please create a similar list as it seems pretty clear for the vast majority of the climb there was a tailwind

I'll do so when I get home. Now I still need to do some work to convince my boss to pay my salary.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

If you notice the video the crosswinds are from the south. No surprise at 6,000 feet

Again, I suggest actually watching the video. There are plenty of road level flags and smoke that show a tail wind or a side wind. Very few that show a head wind.....Which is why Henderson said there was a strong tailwind.

Lets for the sake of the argument assume you are right with the tailwind saga - I remember Hesjedal also had tailwind with his mythical performance in 2012 Giro, pattern? - how do you rate the fact Froome's time was just a minute slower than Miguel Indurain with a real tailwind in 1994?

 

[Race Radio]

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/cycling/tour-de-france-2013-historic-climb-on-mont-ventoux-gives-us-chris-froome-with-a-view-8708080.html

Yup, as I have said, and the article says, the more exposed last 1-2km does have a headwind.....but the the climb is 21.5 km. The video clearly shows a tailwind for the majority of the climb

 

[GJB123]

Link to Mollema saying it was a headwind the whole way up the climb?

It is pretty clear from the videos that the vast majority of the climb was a tailwind. The more exposed last 2-3km might not have been but the other 20km it is pretty obvious

You said you only watched 5 minutes of that video, but you state with some certainty now that the vast majority showed tailwind. Either five minutes constitutes a vast majority or you are full of sh!t on this.

 

[JimmyFingers]

Ventoux tailwind on that very day. The wind followed the switchbacks

See the British press aren't all bad

 

[Netserk]

Yup, as I have said, and the article says, the more exposed last 1-2km does have a headwind.....but the the climb is 21.5 km. The video clearly shows a tailwind for the majority of the climb

It matches well with crosswinds on the exposed part. In the woods I doubt wind would be much of a factor.

 

[thehog]

More BS from Race Radio. Oh dear.

I thought Armstrong was a headwind?

or maybe he was talking about Armstrong's slower time into a headwind?

The absolute record up Ventoux of 45:47 was set in an individual time trial at the 2004 Dauphine Libere' by Euskaltel's Iban Mayo. That day was hot and sunny, with a lighter than usual wind that gave the Spanish climber a side-tailwind up the exposed final 6.15km. The late Marco Pantani holds the Tour de France record of 46:00, set in 1994 on Stage 15 from Montpellier to Carpentras that scaled Ventoux on a sunny, calm day and finished on the north side Carpentras. Pantani audaciously attacked Maillot Jaune Indurain just after St.Esteve, taking 1'30" out of Indurain by the summit, but the Spaniard took many risks to pull Pantani back in the finale.

Chris Froome's time up Ventoux was 48'35", just 2" slower than Lance Armstrong's record time of 48'33" in 2002 on a stage won by Richard Virenque after a long solo break. Armstrong finished 3rd on the stage, 2'20" behind Virenque and put massive time to the rest of the top 10 that day, with hot conditions and a side-tailwind. The next three fastest times are from 2009; Stage 20 from Montélimar to Mont Ventoux. Andy Schleck and Alberto Contado posted 48'57, with Armstrong just behind in 49':00" and run with a 40km / hr. headwind. In 2000, Marco Pantani edged Lance Armstrong for the stage win atop Ventoux, with both riders finishing in 49':01", run in hot conditions with a strong headwind.

 

[Ferminal]

I'd be very interested to know what reasoning he could put forward that are formidable enough for you and others to prove Sky are clean.

My opinion of such a matter is of no relevance to the quality of the argument. There are plenty of arguments used to come to a conclusion of doping which are as flawed as the "never tested positive" is to conclude that doping is not happening. I am not interested in "proofs" only in details and information which can improve our understanding of the sport.

In any case, how is a journalist supposed to "prove Sky are clean" , that is an enormous task even for the riders themselves. Are you somehow saying that Walsh did in fact "prove" this?

NB Need to be careful with words here as the team dynamic is completely different to the individual rider, it is possible to support the idea that Sky as an entity is "clean" whilst having a completely different view of individuals who represent the team.

 

[Race Radio]

Lets for the sake of the argument assume you are right with the tailwind saga - I remember Hesjedal also had tailwind with his mythical performance in 2012 Giro, pattern? - how do you rate the fact Froome's time was just a minute slower than Miguel Indurain with a real tailwind in 1994?

Froome was actually 2 seconds faster then Indurain on the entire climb. Not too surprising, Indurain was a TT guy. He does not hold many climbing records and rode most of the way in a group.

What do you make of Moncoutie being only 50 seconds slower then Froome?

 

[Beech Mtn]

We've already been through all this headwind/tailwind debate back in July.

Well this is some prize bull****. Way to select one part of the course that happens to face the same direction as the wind.
Just watched this and Phil Liggett says "they're picking up for a moment a tailwind. They've changed direction"

Here are Nairo and Froome at various points on Ventoux. Wind direction is shown by the flags, the points they are at are taken from the km sign and their position on Google Maps (finishing point is the same so km out is also the same).
Also included one of Contador + Nieve where they're riding into a headwind - worked out their position by looking at the gap to the leaders, the landscape behind them, and the fact they turn right straight after.

Shots taken 5.7km out, 5.4km out, 3.7km out, 3.9km for chasers, 2km out, 1.2km out...

Click on the photo for full-size



Therefore, this is the general direction the wind was blowing on Ventoux.. Mostly crosswind, sometimes headwind, sometimes tailwind as is always the case on a windy climb with switchbacks.

Tailwind would've been on the forested lower slopes, so not especially effective.

 

[thehog]

What do you make of Moncoutie being only 50 seconds slower then Froome?

Isn't he the guy you and JV hint is dirty?

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Yup, as I have said, and the article says, the more exposed last 1-2km does have a headwind.....but the the climb is 21.5 km. The video clearly shows a tailwind for the majority of the climb

Tailwind in the forest? Mmmh, that is interesting.

What also is interesting is the peloton didnt ride the first 8/10 km of the climb. Quick Step 'paced' the bunch as Chavanel was in front. Team SKY was even able to grap a white lunchbag. What does that do for the actual complete climbing time? Would that make the comparison with Mayo's idiotic time in the Dauphinee TT useless? Not even mentioning the little mistake in math, you know, the 12% stuff.

Also, not even mentioning - now I do - Froome was able to call home in the middle of the climb what clearly is sign he was not at max effort. What is the name of the Sojasun DS who called BS on that?

 

[Digger]

Froome was actually 2 seconds faster then Indurain on the entire climb. Not too surprising, Indurain was a TT guy. He does not hold many climbing records and rode most of the way in a group.

What do you make of Moncoutie being only 50 seconds slower then Froome?

I would like you to address one thing though...your tweet on the day of Ventoux, where you said Froome's time in comparison to Mayo's was encouraging...one being after 200 plus Kms and the other a TT...

 

[Ferminal]

Moncoutie was the 1999 ITT wasn't it? So 220km and 4 hours shorter. I do not know what that says, we have a pretty poor understanding of MTTs. I tended to think Armstrong 2004 was more an exception but these days I have no idea. For the sake of consistency it's easier to not make the comparison at all.

 

[Race Radio]

You said you only watched 5 minutes of that video, but you state with some certainty now that the vast majority showed tailwind. Either five minutes constitutes a vast majority or you are full of sh!t on this.

I watch the video several times, only wrote down the specific times where you can see a flag or smoke once. After a while it became obvious that there was a tailwind most of the climb and I became bored with writing it down.

It seems that many are convinced there was a head wind but few are willing to watch the video

Here are the last 15.5km

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oOC4ahW9rP0

I see some headwind in the last 2-3km but otherwise overwhelmingly a tailwind or cross

 

[thehog]

I would like you to address one thing though...your tweet on the day of Ventoux, where you said Froome's time in comparison to Mayo's was encouraging...one being after 200 plus Kms and the other a TT...

You mean this tweet?