Italy: "After the storm, the Tsunami."

[Oldman]

Yeah, I see your point: "He did it then; it's more likely that he did it now." That has some force. Two big things have happened since then, though. First, he's been ostracized and banned from the pro peloton. He can't safely get close enough to his riders now to give them regular hands-on doping. Second, he's been run through the Italian judicial mill once. I bet he learned something from the experience.

USADA and Interpol are helping this case and maybe, just maybe...the Italians will actually apply the hurt for tax evasion (the Italian National sport) or some other racketeering based charge. Running an operation of the scope generating this much money would suggest he has other people sticking needles into jocks. It will be the money that undoes Lance.

 

[MarkvW]

Links!

Would 2009 be ok?

This is about the NATURE of the linkages, and whether they expose Ferrari to significant risk of prosecution.

There is a great stench about Ferrari, but people don't do time for stench (except maybe on Seinfeld).

 

[MarkvW]

The Big Capone

USADA and Interpol are helping this case and maybe, just maybe...the Italians will actually apply the hurt for tax evasion (the Italian National sport) or some other racketeering based charge. Running an operation of the scope generating this much money would suggest he has other people sticking needles into jocks. It will be the money that undoes Lance.

Tax evasion is the silent killer. There will be no evidence that it is coming, and then Whump! . . . Chrissie gets dragged underwater by the great white.

As Dave Niehaus would say: "My, oh my!"

One can only hope.

 

[VeloCity]

Anybody who thinks Ferrari ever doped anybody is impossibly naive.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gewiss-Ballan.

Yep, I suppose those remarkable jumps in the hematocrit levels of Gewiss riders during the two years Ferrari was team doctor were due to his superlative training methods and not EPO-related at all.

You know, for someone with his reputation as a the go-to doping doctor, it amazes me how many of Ferrari's clients have been linked to and busted for doping over the years - Armstrong, Bugno, Bortolami, Simeoni, Furlan, Berzin, Sinkewitz, Vinokourov, Gotti, Mazzoleni, Landis. Why do riders even consider using the guy? It's almost like there's an equal chance of success or getting busted.

I still love this quote from Squinzi, the Mapei CEO who banned his riders from working with Ferrari: "I think he [Ferrari] is one of the most knowledgeable and best trainers in cycling, but I also think he is a person who operates without any moral restrictions whatsoever." Gee, wonder what he might be referring to.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

This is about the NATURE of the linkages, and whether they expose Ferrari to significant risk of prosecution.

There is a great stench about Ferrari, but people don't do time for stench (except maybe on Seinfeld).

In Italy people actuually do time for things like these as its illegal to dope there. (linked from earlier article)

Drug-testing documents
Medical supplies
Performance Enhancing Drugs

 

[Hugh Januss]

we have requested that the previous decision is removed from Doctor Ferrari's record. And we may also sue for damages

Does anybody recall how that went for them?

 

[MarkvW]

mea culpa

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gewiss-Ballan.

Yep, I suppose those remarkable jumps in the hematocrit levels of Gewiss riders during the two years Ferrari was team doctor were due to his superlative training methods and not EPO-related at all.

You know, for someone with his reputation as a the go-to doping doctor, it amazes me how many of Ferrari's clients have been linked to and busted for doping over the years - Armstrong, Bugno, Bortolami, Simeoni, Furlan, Berzin, Sinkewitz, Vinokourov, Gotti, Mazzoleni, Landis. Why do riders even consider using the guy? It's almost like there's an equal chance of success or getting busted.

I still love this quote from Squinzi, the Mapei CEO who banned his riders from working with Ferrari: "I think he [Ferrari] is one of the most knowledgeable and best trainers in cycling, but I also think he is a person who operates without any moral restrictions whatsoever." Gee, wonder what he might be referring to.

I must modify my statement to read "Anybody who believes Ferrari doped anybody IN THE RELEVANT TIME FRAME is impossibly naive." It is probably still too argumentative, but it makes the point I want to make more clearly.

Sorry for the unnecessary agitation. Sincere apologies. I can see why I was accused of trolling. I just don't think he's hands on anymore.

 

[D-Queued]

I must modify my statement to read "Anybody who believes Ferrari doped anybody IN THE RELEVANT TIME FRAME is impossibly naive." It is probably still too argumentative, but it makes the point I want to make more clearly.

Sorry for the unnecessary agitation. Sincere apologies. I can see why I was accused of trolling. I just don't think he's hands on anymore.

You could be right. Old habits do die hard, though.

There are a couple of factors not in his control:
1. Aversion to needles (insert <Barry Bonds> here)
2. Clumsy clients, who cannot learn for themselves

Moreover, some things require a higher skill level - like transfusion and extraction.

While I can walk down the street and observe junkies shoot up, sticking a vein is something that it might be preferable to have someone with skill perform.

On the other hand, if you have already forked over $1m's, you likely have had plenty of coaching and practice. Even obtaining an MD doesn't cost that much.

Dave.

 

[Oldman]

Tax evasion is the silent killer. There will be no evidence that it is coming, and then Whump! . . . Chrissie gets dragged underwater by the great white.

As Dave Niehaus would say: "My, oh my!"

One can only hope.

As Dave also would say: "It's a Grand Salami!"

 

[webvan]

Would 2009 be ok?

He led them through olive groves to his house beside a cemetery. There the officials found drug-testing documents, medical supplies and performance-enhancing drugs. They also found e-mails and texts that, they say, establish that as recently as 2009 Armstrong's team had links to controversial Italian physician Michele Ferrari, with whom the Texan had said he cut ties in 2004

I had missed this. I was still with the origina (obligatory) Popo denegations anything had been found. The more it goes the more it seems these cheats are going to be in deep trouble.

 

[Berzin]

I must modify my statement to read "Anybody who believes Ferrari doped anybody IN THE RELEVANT TIME FRAME is impossibly naive." It is probably still too argumentative, but it makes the point I want to make more clearly.

Impossibly naive, eh? That's quite the judgment call there. Argumentative, ignorant and baiting comments like this really don't leave much to the imagination in terms of your agenda, so let me set you straight.

There are no training methods that any cycling doctor is privy to that are hands-down better than anyone elses'. It's all about the doping.

Riders pay for three things with Ferrari-access, exclusivity and expertise, from the exorbitant prices he charges for his ability to dope riders and his expertise in getting around the Bio Passport.

If you are able to pay, like Armstrong did, for exclusive rights to his services during the Tour, that is an advantage no one else in the peloton had.

I hope this clears the haze for you, dude, because really-no one could possibly be this stupid at this stage of the game over how Ferrari has and continues to make his living.

 

[jimmypop]

I can't argue against "The Right People." Especially The Right People who have "Firsthand Knowledge" of "Zero Degrees of Separation." Your secret, superior knowledge is unchallengeable! You win (but what you win, I don't know)!

I win because I'm right, and you don't know sh*t.

Yours is a subtly disguised troll, but a troll nonetheless.

 

[MarkvW]

okay

Impossibly naive, eh? That's quite the judgment call there. Argumentative, ignorant and baiting comments like this really don't leave much to the imagination in terms of your agenda, so let me set you straight.

There are no training methods that any cycling doctor is privy to that are hands-down better than anyone elses'. It's all about the doping.

Riders pay for three things with Ferrari-access, exclusivity and expertise, from the exorbitant prices he charges for his ability to dope riders and his expertise in getting around the Bio Passport.

If you are able to pay, like Armstrong did, for exclusive rights to his services during the Tour, that is an advantage no one else in the peloton had.

I hope this clears the haze for you, dude, because really-no one could possibly be this stupid at this stage of the game over how Ferrari has and continues to make his living.

Ferrari plus dope is more productive than anybody else plus dope. That appears to be the well founded perception. Ferrari doesn't need to dirty his hands with the dope itself (any more). He can thus insulate himself from an effective investigation.

I'm not going to accuse Ferrari of anything only (I repeat, only) out of prudence.

An intelligent doctor, who neither prescribes nor deals in PEDs, could very effectively insulate herself from prosecution if all she does is analyze her patient and recommend a doping regimen appropriate for that patient. If she works through a cutout doctor, she would be SO hard to catch. You'd need a snitch. If there were a snitch that implicated Ferrari, Ferrari would have been raided by now.

Ferrari is probably hunkering down right now. Clients are probably nervous about dealing with him. Undercover would really be tough. I'd like to see him caught, but I'm really dubious.

Maybe they've got phone calls through a cooperating witness, but I'd be stunned if Ferrari talks about doping over the phone.

He's a tough nut to crack.

 

[MarkvW]

value

I win because I'm right, and you don't know sh*t.

Yours is a subtly disguised troll, but a troll nonetheless.

I was provocative, I'll give you that, but I really tried to give value by explaining how and why it might be very hard to asssemble provable evidence against Ferrari in this investigation.

I wonder if Ferrari even puts his advice in writing. Please ask your undisclosed sources that question. I'd really like to know the answer.

 

[JMBeaushrimp]

Ferrari plus dope is more productive than anybody else plus dope.

I'll give you that. The Doc knows his biz.

If the above bolded isn't a clear enough example for someone going 'full ***', I'll reitterate it for ya.

MarkVW has gone full ***.

 

[Berzin]

I think Dr. Ferrari's training expertise is overrated.

I clearly remember Greg Lemond having to explain the power meter he was riding with to Dr. Ferrari and the guy had no idea what the contraption was.

 

[ergmonkey]

Please pardon me if I don't defame Ferrari (I mean this in a most extremely precise legal sense).

Please educate those of us not engaged in an international criminal law practice as to what exactly that "most extremely precise legal sense" is. Thanks.

 

[MarkvW]

Please educate those of us not engaged in an international criminal law practice as to what exactly that "most extremely precise legal sense" is. Thanks.

Infer nothing beyond that which is stated.

 

[Benotti69]

i dont why people are bothered keeping this Troll MarkieVW going and responding to his obvious obtuseness.

It has been obvious for a long time as the noose tightens on Gunderson that the fanboys have changed the message from 'most tested athlete' and 'never tested positive' to "too much good for too many' and 'every one doped'. They are losing the propaganda war as much as Gunderson has long ago lost it.

The evidence against Ferarri is strong. The anecdotal evidence is stronger and when it gets proved in a court of law he will be in deep pooh. Anyone who wishes to think otherwise, fine, but if you want to come on here and voice that at least offer something convincing and not legal jargon that you do not understand.

I truly hope a mod takes time to edit this thread.

Please posters don't reply to this guy, he'll get extra yella jelly beans in liveWrong HQ.

 

[jimmypop]

Please educate those of us not engaged in an international criminal law practice as to what exactly that "most extremely precise legal sense" is. Thanks.

Be careful: MarkvW may be a law student. If you know any law students, you'll understand that this means his grasp of the law is unimpeachable.

The trolling isn't even subtle any more, and it's apparent that the case against Armstrong and his enablers is hitting some sad saps where it hurts: their fanboy ego.

 

[MarkvW]

Funny

Be careful: MarkvW may be a law student. If you know any law students, you'll understand that this means his grasp of the law is unimpeachable.

The trolling isn't even subtle any more, and it's apparent that the case against Armstrong and his enablers is hitting some sad saps where it hurts: their fanboy ego.

Aw. So sorry you must resort to personal attacks.

 

[D-Queued]

Be careful: MarkvW may be a law student. If you know any law students, you'll understand that this means his grasp of the law is unimpeachable.

The trolling isn't even subtle any more, and it's apparent that the case against Armstrong and his enablers is hitting some sad saps where it hurts: their fanboy ego.

To be fair, us 'haters' are also less patient with those that express any uncertainty or mderation.

I think MvW conceded more than one point on Ferrari. If he is a troll, concessions are an entirely new tactic.

As much as I am convinced Lance's habit started well before meeting Ferrari, it defies reason to think that he would have bothered doping when he returned. Especially when one of his stated objectives was to prove he didn't dope. Heck, the appearance fees alone were worth showing up on a tricycle while being 30 pounds overweight.

While I have frequently cited how Lance's behavior fits various Antisocial Personality Disorder tendencies, it made perfect sense that he would do the return Tours clean. It would have been a smart thing to do in order to throw the bloodhounds off the trail.

Of course, his performance alone demolished his credibility - let alone his antics with Contador.

Same with the concept Ferrari continuing to ply his trade after the guilty verdict, and acquittal on appeal under statute of limitations.

Yet, newest evidence is that the pattern is well ingrained and it was back to business as usual - for both of them, and with each other.

Both of those guys must have very expensive lifestyles that they are barely able to maintain.

Dave.

 

[Hugh Januss]

To be fair, us 'haters' are also less patient with those that express any uncertainty or mderation.


As much as I am convinced Lance's habit started well before meeting Ferrari, it defies reason to think that he would have bothered doping when he returned. Especially when one of his stated objectives was to prove he didn't dope. Heck, the appearance fees alone were worth showing up on a tricycle while being 30 pounds overweight.

While I have frequently cited how Lance's behavior fits various Antisocial Personality Disorder tendencies, it made perfect sense that he would do the return Tours clean. It would have been a smart thing to do in order to throw the bloodhounds off the trail.

Of course, his performance alone demolished his credibility - let alone his antics with Contador.

Same with the concept Ferrari continuing to ply his trade after the guilty verdict, and acquittal on appeal under statute of limitations.

Yet, newest evidence is that the pattern is well ingrained and it was back to business as usual - for both of them, and with each other.


Dave.

Agree with that first line, but sometimes new guys coming in with the same old tired comments, stated in such a way that it is clear they think it is some great new revelation, gets exhausting.

Can't agree about LA though, there is no way he came back clean (IMO). He came back thinking he could win, and knowing that no one could clean, and having so little respect for the current contenders that he didn't even consider that he would not win.
I grant you he was probably "cleanish" last year for fear of being caught, not by testing but by those damn snooping French police.

 

[Benotti69]

To be fair, us 'haters' are also less patient with those that express any uncertainty or mderation.

I think MvW conceded more than one point on Ferrari. If he is a troll, concessions are an entirely new tactic.

As much as I am convinced Lance's habit started well before meeting Ferrari, it defies reason to think that he would have bothered doping when he returned. Especially when one of his stated objectives was to prove he didn't dope. Heck, the appearance fees alone were worth showing up on a tricycle while being 30 pounds overweight.

While I have frequently cited how Lance's behavior fits various Antisocial Personality Disorder tendencies, it made perfect sense that he would do the return Tours clean. It would have been a smart thing to do in order to throw the bloodhounds off the trail.

Of course, his performance alone demolished his credibility - let alone his antics with Contador.

Same with the concept Ferrari continuing to ply his trade after the guilty verdict, and acquittal on appeal under statute of limitations.

Yet, newest evidence is that the pattern is well ingrained and it was back to business as usual - for both of them, and with each other.

Both of those guys must have very expensive lifestyles that they are barely able to maintain.

Dave.

He came back to win the TdF with a team run by Bruyneel. If he couldn't win it prior to 98 what made him or anyone else think he was going to win it clean at 38? He knew Contador was doping because they were on the same team, so why would he ride it clean? There is no way he rode clean, not a snowflakes chance in hell.

 

[jimmypop]

Aw. So sorry you must resort to personal attacks.

I have no problem directly addressing your motives and character.

What, you think all of us landed on the Internet yesterday? I've been participating in Usenet discussions since I had a 2400 baud modem. You're going to have to do a better job if you'd like to disguise your trolling. Defending the indefensible isn't a new role, and it's one you're not really succeeding at. Whether or not this role garners you compensation remains to be seen.