Itzulia Basque Country 2021, Spain, April 5 - April 10

Page 37 - Get up to date with the latest news, scores & standings from the Cycling News Community.
May 29, 2019
11,151
11,675
23,180
The thing i agree with Chris Horner is stage 6 is likely going to be spectacular.

P.S. As for the rest, on how Roglič and his team should today basically race to the finish line. In my opinion there is a good chance Pogačar would gain at least 4 seconds, JV racing such way. The decision they made was deliberate and lets see if a bunch of ski jumpers can pull it off. That is why it is called tactics and UAE for sure wasn't expecting it and in my opinion weren't all that happy about it.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Sandisfan
Feb 20, 2010
33,064
15,272
28,180
I'm not sure what's more bizarre, that people are defending Jumbo-Visma's tactics, or that Chris Horner actually appears halfway surprised at their tactics being boneheaded when Rabofail was already a widely toted thing when he was a sprightly young 37 year old just cutting his teeth in the international péloton. They're lucky Primož Roglič is so strong that he enables them to rack up wins despite their tactics, otherwise they'd get a lot more stick than they already do, like I was saying about Movistar earlier.
 
Feb 20, 2010
33,064
15,272
28,180
The thing i agree with Chris Horner is stage 6 is likely going to be spectacular.

P.S. As for the rest, on how Roglič and his team should today basically race to the finish line. In my opinion there is a good chance Pogačar would gain at least 4 seconds, JV racing such way. The decision they made was deliberate and lets see if a bunch of ski jumpers can pull it off. That is why it is called tactics and UAE for sure wasn't expecting it and in my opinion weren't all that happy about it.
If UAE's team directors arent' happy about being gifted the race lead with option B while option A lost zero time whatsoever, then they're even dumber than the Jumbo DSes who allowed it to happen. They should be absolutely ecstatic. Why on earth would they be upset about McNulty being given a minute just because Pogi could have had four seconds, when now they have both two cards to play AND a headstart?

The important thing in that break was that McNulty got into it. Jumbo-Visma can be perfectly happy to let that break take the stage, to deny Tadej some bonus seconds... but they needed to chase it down while McNulty was there, and at least call Vingegaard back and go hard to limit the losses once the leader's jersey was under threat.

I mean, it's kind of good for us the fans that Jumbo paint themselves into corners from time to time like this, because if the strongest team just rode smart and cowed everybody into submission like Sky did for years it would be a lot more boring, but Jumbo's racing today cannot be considered smart racing. It's a six day race, it's not like a three week race where holding the jersey for too long is something to be concerned about (although Jumbo do have form for that, working all day on stage 8 of last year's Tour to set up a Rogla attack only to then instruct him to sit back and watch Pogačar ride into the distance "because we don't want the jersey this early", only to then spend the following day on the front all day as though they had the jersey, and take the yellow that day anyway). They can always let an un-threatening break go tomorrow and save some energy if need be. I wouldn't be surprised if that's what UAE team do.
 
Last edited:
Dec 9, 2019
693
828
7,180
TJV screwed up big time imo, The whole Vingegaard play is mostly a bluff even tho I love the young Dane, this is a hat too big for him. The funniest thing tho is that I think Pogacar is one of the biggest losers today even tho his team got the jersey. His reaction tells us everything. "Jumbo-Visma lost the jersey: they definitely made mistakes. I had no idea what they were thinking, but maybe it's just right for them". (Sporza)
He is clearly pissed off because he can't attack on Saturday freely and basically him winning is gonna be very complicated. It's gonna be an interesting finale for sure. I think McNulty would win it because TJV would probably be too passive and noone else is gonna lend a hand.
 
May 29, 2019
11,151
11,675
23,180
I am not defending JV tactics, i am just saying they already know what tactics doesn't work. The tactics that doesn't work, against Pogačar, is controlling the race and giving Pogačar a free ride. If they would repeat such tactics, that would be stupid.

If they would do that today, race to the line, they would lost seconds. Based on the current form, Pogačar is a bit punchier, bunch sprint.

And what did UAE gain today? Pogačar is the captain and he gained nothing today, more of the opposite.

McNulty could surprise, but then again if JV underestimated him and he can keep up with elite climbers, then he deserves it. Is McNulty really considered to be a bigger threat, compared to Pogačar? Stage 3 said no.
 
Dec 9, 2019
693
828
7,180
I am not defending JV tactics, i am just saying they already know what tactics doesn't work. The tactics that doesn't work, against Pogačar, is controlling the race and giving Pogačar a free ride. If they would repeat such tactics, that would be stupid.

If they would do that today, race to the line, they would lost seconds. Based on the current form, Pogačar is a bit punchier, bunch sprint.

And what did UAE gain today? Pogačar is the captain and he gained nothing today, more of the opposite.

McNulty could surprise, but then again if JV underestimated him and he can keep up with elite climbers, then he deserves it. Is McNulty really considered to be a bigger threat, compared to Pogačar? Stage 3 said no.
I think the big question is if Movistar/Ineos/Bahrain would make the race harder. If UAE is let to control the race and others like Bilbao/Yates don't attack besides TJV, McNulty has this. I don't see Roglic gaining more than 17 seconds on his attacks alone and I can see Pog stealing him another bonus seconds at the end.
 
Sep 26, 2020
25,337
27,836
23,180
Hilarious stuff. Though, for good measure, it was Tolhoek, not Foss, who was doing stretches and not driving the Roglic group on the run-in.

Nice that he wants the GCN announcers fired, I assume it was Kirby who commented today. A pity Horner does not have the final say there. And he would also fire the Jumbo director unless it was him who had been responsible of getting Roglic to the team, then he could stay on as a scout only :tearsofjoy:

I don't think he was watching GCN en Español, that's for sure :laughing:

I have a hunch, that @johnymax may have hacked the Jumbo radio and called the shots in order to get Vingegaard on the podium. Otherwise Niermann's days could be numbered.
 
  • Haha
Reactions: Sandisfan
May 29, 2019
11,151
11,675
23,180
Pogačar still has to gain 20s on Roglič, difference being he is not necessarily the captain of his team anymore, or will be able to use the same tactics as originally planned. I don't see how this could be worse for Roglič.

As for Brandon McNulty, sure, this was a gamble that took some brass balls. We will see on stage 6 if they blew it or nailed it.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Sandisfan
Dec 9, 2019
693
828
7,180
Looked at the standings and just realised the reason Roglic lost the jersey. He wanted to be in green in the last stage, his favorite color in the Vuelta where he won 3 stages while wearing green and always gaining time. Ninja Turtle Roglic > Leader Roglic, obviously the smart choice for the final round :cool:
 
Feb 20, 2010
33,064
15,272
28,180
I am not defending JV tactics, i am just saying they already know what tactics doesn't work. The tactics that doesn't work, against Pogačar, is controlling the race and giving Pogačar a free ride. If they would repeat such tactics, that would be stupid.
There is no ITT remaining. Rogla was as strong as Pogačar on the stage 3 climb, and Pogačar would have needed to drop him by a decent amount to win the race. Hell, Jumbo could let a breakaway go to take time bonuses out of the equation, and make Pogačar need twice as much too.

If they would do that today, race to the line, they would lost seconds. Based on the current form, Pogačar is a bit punchier, bunch sprint.
They can still let a move go. McNulty didn't initiate that move. They could still let people who are over a minute back like Buchmann, Izagirre, Chaves, Carapaz go. They'll take the bonus seconds out of it, and they aren't teammates of Pogačar so they don't have the opportunity to play the 1-2 card. And if they aren't going, then even if he loses a few seconds to Pogačar at the line, Rogla will still lead the race rather than being 20+ seconds down. At the very least they could have limited the timeloss - it's not like they went super hard, seeing as Bevin and Knox managed to ride away fairly easily and keep the group at bay too.
And what did UAE gain today? Pogačar is the captain and he gained nothing today, more of the opposite.
They gained the leader's jersey, a second realistic bullet in their gun, and a headstart of over 20 seconds. Just because Pogačar is the captain doesn't mean he's the only one allowed to gain time. Carapaz won the Giro like this, in fact. Wasn't it Jumbo that let him up the road then, too? Can't recall. Might have been Nibali's guys at Trek instead - Polanc had the maglia rosa from a break at that point. And now, UAE are in the position where they know Roglič has to gain a specific amount of time - and it's not inconsiderable, so time bonuses might be important - so UAE might do as I said Jumbo could have done and let a break go, and say to Jumbo-Visma, if you want those bonus seconds, you've got to do the chasing, which increases the chances of Roglič being isolated at the point where he needs to set up his all important attack.
McNulty could surprise, but then again if JV underestimated him and he can keep up with elite climbers, then he deserves it. Is McNulty really considered to be a bigger threat, compared to Pogačar? Stage 3 said no.
The finishing climb on Saturday is less steep than stage 3. The climb that's like stage 3 is 40km from home. The finishing climb is more like today's last climb, where McNulty was absolutely fine. It's also a short stage. And now, rather than Roglič getting to pick and choose whose attacks he follows, he has no choice: he's got to make an attack himself. Because this morning, Jumbo needed to do nothing - if everything stayed as is, they would win. Now, if everything stays as is, they lose. And the reason for that is that they committed tactical harakiri.

If they win this race, it's not because dropping the jersey today was a tactical masterstroke, it's because Roglič was strong enough to overcome the tactical errors of his team. I actually like Rogla. But the thing that went wrong when they employed "tactic that was proven to fail" wasn't holding the jersey and racing from in front. In fact, letting a move like this escape in stage 8 instead of capitalising on their strength was exactly what caused that tactic to fail. And if my memory is correct and it was Jumbo that let Carapaz go on stage 14 in the 2019 Giro, then isn't that strategy - the exact one they employed today in fact - a strategy which was proven to fail too?
 
Last edited:
May 29, 2019
11,151
11,675
23,180
We all very well know what Pogačar signature move is, last stage. It doesn't have to be a TT. Trying to solve this in the same way, that will only result in the same outcome. Everything was going in his way again and rest assured Pogačar wasn't happy today.

If Roglič would bring Pogačar closer there would be a bunch sprint. Pogačar currently being a bit punchier that would result in seconds lost. There is no way he would miss this opportunity. Tomorrow there is another chance for that too.

As for Brandon McNulty. I agree that is a gamble and lets see if it will pay off or not.
 

Bonimenier

BANNED
Apr 1, 2019
4,291
5,930
16,180
If Roglič would bring Pogačar closer there would be a bunch sprint. Pogačar currently being a bit punchier that would result in seconds lost. There is no way he would miss this opportunity. Tomorrow there is another chance for that too.
If that really was how JV thought, they would've paced with Tolhoek later and not let the gap go up to almost a minute.
 
Jul 8, 2017
2,274
2,959
17,180
I am also really surprised by Jumbo's tactics. Didn't watch the stage, but judging by what's written, they had Tolhoek, who didn't work? Not saying work hard ---> catch Vingegaard, but work hard enough to give the jersey by 10-ish seconds...

However, not that I think Jumbo are smart/brave enough to apply that, but what happens if they attack with Vingegaard? Does Pogi "burns" himself catching him? Is it McNulty burning matches to catch him, thus making it easier for Roglic to get just enough time?

But knowing jumbo, they will build a train just riding with solid pace without making it difficult for McNulty, relying only on Roglic being strong enough on the final climb.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Sandisfan
May 29, 2019
11,151
11,675
23,180
Unless they wanted to do exactly that? Give McNulty enough time, to create a leadership problem and maybe to bring some other teams closer in GC, to make the race harder? I don't know. I just know that whatever they did they did it deliberately.

Was it stupid or was it brilliant? Stage 6 will tell.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Sandisfan
Feb 20, 2010
33,064
15,272
28,180
Unless they wanted to do exactly that? Give McNulty enough time, to create a leadership problem and maybe to bring some other teams closer in GC, to make the race harder? I don't know. I just know that whatever they did they did it deliberately.

Was it stupid or was it brilliant? Stage 6 will tell.
Even if they win the race it won't be a brilliant move, because they'll have won despite themselves, since now they have to win on brute strength, since UAE have more bullets in their gun and a headstart. They'll have dug themselves out of a hole they had no reason to be in in the first place.
 
May 29, 2019
11,151
11,675
23,180
You are underestimating the threat from Pogačar. The thermonuclear bullet in their cannon. Four seconds again today, maybe tomorrow and a bit punchier on that last climb ... We are down to under 10 seconds just on that? His whole team being fully behind him on stage 6, while Roglič being under attack from everybody. This had to stop today and JV did just that.

I am not defending them and saying this could not turn out to be a stupid move. I am just saying that repeating the same tactics again and again won't produce different results. And if this tactics used will work on this race, then they did the right thing.

P.S. As this was obviously an unorthodox tactical move and we won't know the outcome till stage 6. Best to rest it for now and lets agree if it will turn out it was stupid, they should fire tacticians responsible and hire Chris Horner. If it turns out it was a brilliant tactical move they should give the tacticians a raise.
 
May 8, 2014
4,273
5,300
21,180
You are underestimating the threat from Pogačar. The thermonuclear bullet in their cannon. Four seconds again today, maybe tomorrow and a bit punchier on that last climb ... We are down to under 10 seconds just on that? His whole team being fully behind him on stage 6, while Roglič being under attack from everybody. This had to stop today and JV did just that.

I am not defending them and saying this could not turn out to be a stupid move. I am just saying that repeating the same tactics again and again won't produce different results. And if this tactics used will work on this race, then they did the right thing.

P.S. As this was obviously an unorthodox tactical move and we won't know the outcome till stage 6. Best to rest it for now and lets agree if it will turn out it was stupid, they should fire tacticians responsible and hire Chris Horner. If it turns out it was a brilliant tactical move they should give the tacticians a raise.
Why are you so sure Pogačar would have won the sprint? I think it's 50-50 between the two at worst or advantage to Roglič. Sure Pogi has beaten him in the past, but usually after a hard race/climb. If they are both relatively fresh I think Rogla beats him 7 times out of 10.
 
May 29, 2019
11,151
11,675
23,180
Maybe we will get to see it on stage 5 and won't have to guess. I feel that Roglič might have sacrificed a bit of the punch for performing better when climbing. Preparing for this race.

As for my opinion, short version, on what JV could have been after today.

Give away the jersey and make your life a bit easier, try to make Pogačar work for McNulty on stage 6 and let GC contenders closer and by doing so make the race harder.

P.S. Now in reality they could have just blew it today, i don't know. But their action was in my opinion deliberate. Stage 6 will tell.
 

Bonimenier

BANNED
Apr 1, 2019
4,291
5,930
16,180
I am not defending them and saying this could not turn out to be a stupid move. I am just saying that repeating the same tactics again and again won't produce different results. And if this tactics used will work on this race, then they did the right thing.
'I am not defending them' says he defending them.
 
May 8, 2014
4,273
5,300
21,180
After thinking about it some more time, I came to a conclusion that TJV messed up. Yay! But not with the moves they made, but with the execution of the moves. If the following happens:

1st - Vingegaard wins the stage after he does nothing in the breakaway (which was a very realistic scenario with him being punchy and the freshest of them all on paper). That would bring him to 14s behind McNulty in GC instead of 28s.

2nd - Tolhoek and Roglič both do a couple of stronger turns in the chasing group which would bring Roglič around 10s behind the American instead of 23s.

If both of the above happen, the GC would look like:

McNulty
Roglič +10s
Vingegaard +14s
Pogačar +30s

If I'm Jumbo, I take this situation going into the last stage anytime.

I don't agree with the premise that if nothing had happened today, Roglič would have had only to look after Pogačar and nobody else. First I think you underestimate the difficulty of stage 6. Remember, rain is expected for Saturday which will make the stage only more difficult. Secondly, I think you underestimate how weak of a team TJV have at this race. If, total chaos happens from the beginning (very likely) Roglič could be left with only Vingegaard by his side on the first 1st category climb of the day 100km from the finish!!! Good luck getting back all the attacks with only two riders (one of them being Roglič). And it's not only Pogačar and McNulty they should be aware of. Yes, if Roglič's job was to not make Pogi win the race. But this is not the case. You have Bahrain with Bilbao and Landa, Astana with Ion and Fuglsang, Bora with Schachmann and Buchmann, Yates, Valverde, etc. All in striking distance, all of them will fancy their chances with a surprise attack from afar. Now UAE has to control things and they have the team to do a better job.

The problem for TJV is that the above written scenario didn't happen. They didn't get their stage win with Vingegaard, instead McNulty got 4 bonus seconds. The chasing group didn't work well together so they lost a little too much time. Also it's not true that Tolhoek didn't work. At first when he caught back the group, sure, he didn't. He sat on Roglič's wheel because Carthy was pacing the group at the time. But then after the Valverde attack and when they arrived on the flat, he was at the front doing pulls. The problem is that he was completely spent, because he was dying on the climb trying to hold on as long as possible and even more importantly, like I said before, he is completely useless on the flat. How can you expect him to gain time on 5 strong riders doing turns in the front group?

To be completely honest, I'm mostly disappointed in Roglic's decision to not make a single pull in the chasing group (or at least I don't remember him making one). It's not like it would endanger his lead over Pogačar or anything, but it would allow him to lose maybe 10s less to McNulty which could end up being crucial in the end.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: cen
Jul 16, 2015
5,374
13,954
23,180
TJV screwed up big time imo, The whole Vingegaard play is mostly a bluff even tho I love the young Dane, this is a hat too big for him. The funniest thing tho is that I think Pogacar is one of the biggest losers today even tho his team got the jersey. His reaction tells us everything. "Jumbo-Visma lost the jersey: they definitely made mistakes. I had no idea what they were thinking, but maybe it's just right for them". (Sporza)
He is clearly pissed off because he can't attack on Saturday freely and basically him winning is gonna be very complicated. It's gonna be an interesting finale for sure. I think McNulty would win it because TJV would probably be too passive and noone else is gonna lend a hand.

I'm thinking Ineos with Carapaz & Yates can drill it on Saturday & drop McNulty (for the stage win & also because Yates isn't that far behind & can still aim for a podium or even the win). At which point UAE have a dilemma: use Pogacar to pull McNulty, or leave McNulty behind & trust Pogacar can gap Primoz by 20 seconds (with time bonuses as well).

The way I see it, if Vingegaard had pulled for Primoz on the descent yesterday & got the leader's group close to the breakaway McNulty group, there would have been other attacks from the main group towards the finish line. And having burned through Vingegaard already, Primoz would have needed to jump on every dangerous wheel himself, basically.

Jumbo deliberately surrendered the lead because they don't have the team to control the race & were essentially in a sort of repeat mini scenario of last year's Tour where they were pulling Pogacar around France, except this time with a far weaker team.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Sandisfan
Jul 16, 2015
5,374
13,954
23,180
I'm also going to point out the fact the final stage tomorrow is a literal sprint stage of sorts with seven climbs, ergo looking merely at the final climb doesn't paint the whole picture:

stage-6-profile.jpg


It's going to be Movistar & Ineos on the attack with UAE in a defensive role. Unless they too break with "tradition" & tell Pogacar he has the freedom to do whatever he wants & he goes nuclear without any consideration for McNulty - which is also possible. In any case it's the sort of stage which has often produces huge time gaps.

I mean I'd be shocked if a fairy compact Peloton arrives at Arrate with McNulty still fresh enough to defend 23 seconds on Roglic.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Sandisfan