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Ivan Basso: Lance Will be the Strongest

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BroDeal said:
Yes, we should just ignore what we all saw at the Giro where all the domestiques were more interested in riding with Armstrong than supporting Leipheimer. I am sure that will never happen again. :rolleyes:

i've refuted this several times ....it is not true

point me to the stage where you say that happend. no i don't think you will because that would be work.

the team rode perfectly. the bad result was not from bad tactics.
 
jackhammer111 said:
i've refuted this several times ....it is not true

point me to the stage where you say that happend. no i don't think you will because that would be work.

the team rode perfectly. the bad result was not from bad tactics.

Come on Jack, you're going to destroy your credibility if you try to refute reality. I watched every stage of the Giro this year and you are blowing smoke up our asses with that statement.

On Stage 5 to Alpe di Siusi (Menchov won) only Horner was in the lead group with Leipheimer and all the other domestiques were pacing Lance. Perhaps they all got dropped from that lead group but we don't know that, what we do know is that ALL the rest of them were pacing Lance.

On Stage 16 to Monte Petrano (Sastre won), Leipheimer blew up big time and Armstrong tried to bridge up to the lead climbers instead of helping Levi. Before Leipheimer even blew up he got a flat tire and Armstrong did not wait for him. Armstrong was dropped from the lead group of climbers when Basso attacked as soon as he caught them, and it was only then that he dropped back down the mountain to pace Levi. By then it was far too late and the damage had been done.

Here, watch the stages for yourself and cut the BS please:

http://www.universalsports.com/ViewArticle.dbml?SPID=13044&DB_OEM_ID=23000&ATCLID=3734597
 
jackhammer111 said:
i've refuted this several times ....it is not true

point me to the stage where you say that happend. no i don't think you will because that would be work.

the team rode perfectly. the bad result was not from bad tactics.

You have never refuted jack, Jack.

We all saw what happened. Armstrong was more concerned about how much time he lost on climbs to the leaders than he was with what happened to Leipheimer. He went into stages with goals of how much time he wanted to limit his losses to. If anyone on Armstrong's previous teams would have even been suspected of doing that, their blood would have been poured down the toilet.

Aside from Horner, the rest of the team followed Armstrong around like lapdogs, and Horner sounds like he was interested in riding for himself.
 
Mar 13, 2009
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jackhammer111 said:
i've refuted this several times ....it is not true

point me to the stage where you say that happend. no i don't think you will because that would be work.

the team rode perfectly. the bad result was not from bad tactics.

For memory there was a couple of stages early on (st4 &/or 5??) where Leipheimer only had the support of either Popo or Horner, whereas Armstrong was further back down the road with 3 or 4 other Astana teams mates.

I have no video, I watched the live online feed but I'd say it was clear that Armstrong was the team protected rider even when he had lost minutes and Leipheimer was still in a potential podium position.
 
Actually, if memory serves, both are true.

On Stage 5 Popo was with Levi and Chris, but was dropped when Basso accelerated. He ended up ahead of Lance though, who was riding with Navarro and Brajkovic. It was impressive that Levi and Chris were the only team with two riders at the finish, and if Popo had hung on, they would have had three. I doubt having Navarro or Brajkovic drop Lance would have served any purpose, if they could have.

On the stage to Petrano, what you say is true BC, and why I called poor tactics. But in the last 4km or so Lance worked with Levi to the finish.

Lance was also seen fetching bottles on I believe the Blockhaus or Vesuvius climb.

I say overall bad tactics because they didn't win a stage, spend one day in any of the jerseys, and didn't get a single bonus point. For being the most powerful team in cycling, this is in my assessment has to be considered a disappointment, or a failure. I think that was based on their singular thinking that the way to win was to out pace everyone on the climbs, or hinge everything on the ITT in Cinque Terra. That failed as Levi didn't have the legs, and other riders were simply faster. After that, they had no other plan, and refused to try to attack early on any of the climbs, which was their only hope left (see Floyd, 2006, or Periero, 2006). The only serious break they tried was on Petrano by Popo, and he cracked big time (finished behind Lance and Levi even).

I also call poor tactics, or planning, as they didn't seem to be focused on the Giro leading into it with their best rider (Levi), or if they were, they didn't show it. His season seemed to be planned around the ToC and Castilla y León, leaving him to try to double peak for the Giro. The only time they mentioned he was going for the Giro was the week prior to the race. And to prepare for that, they raced and trained not in Europe, or Italy, but at the Gila, beating up on Cat 1's and pro's making $15k a year. All this while Menchov, DiLuca, Pelozotti and Basso focused their entire season on the Giro. To me this is poor planning (ie. tactics) by Astana.

I'm sure Jack will come on here saying I'm wrong and they could do no more. But the poor performance and no results speak for themselves.
 
Mar 19, 2009
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Moving away from the neg comments regarding Lances work for Levi...I think he did a good job dragging around the "gruppo," and he certainly wont have to worry about pulling at all during the TDF... Its just a matter of Lance keeping it up right and not breaking his leg, or wrist, or collarbone, etc.
 
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BikeCentric said:
Come on Jack, you're going to destroy your credibility if you try to refute reality. I watched every stage of the Giro this year and you are blowing smoke up our asses with that statement.

On Stage 5 to Alpe di Siusi (Menchov won) only Horner was in the lead group with Leipheimer and all the other domestiques were pacing Lance. Perhaps they all got dropped from that lead group but we don't know that, what we do know is that ALL the rest of them were pacing Lance.

Levi addressed this himself in an video interview. I wish I could find it.
His response was.. he had horner.. look around at the other guys in that group... none of them had help.. how may astana riders did you expect to be there at that time... again.. nobody else had a teammate at that point.
Sometimes when Lance is in a group of teamates he's just a rider among teamates... it doesn't always mean something.

BikeCentric said:
On Stage 16 to Monte Petrano (Sastre won), Leipheimer blew up big time and Armstrong tried to bridge up to the lead climbers instead of helping Levi. Before Leipheimer even blew up he got a flat tire and Armstrong did not wait for him. Armstrong was dropped from the lead group of climbers when Basso attacked as soon as he caught them, and it was only then that he dropped back down the mountain to pace Levi. By then it was far too late and the damage had been done.

From Cycling Weekly; "Lance Armstrong played the perfect domestique in the finale. He initially went with the leaders and got up to Menchov’s group but then eased up, waited for Leipheimer and paced him up the second half of the climb."

When Lance tried to bridge up Levi was supposed to go with him. It was go time and Levi couldn't go. When Lance saw he wasn't there he went back. There was plenty of race left to bridge back up if Levi had the legs. They weren't even halfway up the climb. Levi said "“(Without Lance) I would have lost much much more time. He saved me minutes and minutes,"

I watched that climb twice because of what people were saying here. It's unfounded IMO.
 
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Alpe d'Huez said:
Actually, if memory serves, both are true.

On Stage 5 Popo was with Levi and Chris, but was dropped when Basso accelerated. He ended up ahead of Lance though, who was riding with Navarro and Brajkovic. It was impressive that Levi and Chris were the only team with two riders at the finish, and if Popo had hung on, they would have had three. I doubt having Navarro or Brajkovic drop Lance would have served any purpose, if they could have.

On the stage to Petrano, what you say is true BC, and why I called poor tactics. But in the last 4km or so Lance worked with Levi to the finish.

Lance was also seen fetching bottles on I believe the Blockhaus or Vesuvius climb.

I say overall bad tactics because they didn't win a stage, spend one day in any of the jerseys, and didn't get a single bonus point. For being the most powerful team in cycling, this is in my assessment has to be considered a disappointment, or a failure. I think that was based on their singular thinking that the way to win was to out pace everyone on the climbs, or hinge everything on the ITT in Cinque Terra. That failed as Levi didn't have the legs, and other riders were simply faster. After that, they had no other plan, and refused to try to attack early on any of the climbs, which was their only hope left (see Floyd, 2006, or Periero, 2006). The only serious break they tried was on Petrano by Popo, and he cracked big time (finished behind Lance and Levi even).

I also call poor tactics, or planning, as they didn't seem to be focused on the Giro leading into it with their best rider (Levi), or if they were, they didn't show it. His season seemed to be planned around the ToC and Castilla y León, leaving him to try to double peak for the Giro. The only time they mentioned he was going for the Giro was the week prior to the race. And to prepare for that, they raced and trained not in Europe, or Italy, but at the Gila, beating up on Cat 1's and pro's making $15k a year. All this while Menchov, DiLuca, Pelozotti and Basso focused their entire season on the Giro. To me this is poor planning (ie. tactics) by Astana.

I'm sure Jack will come on here saying I'm wrong and they could do no more. But the poor performance and no results speak for themselves.

i don't think we differ on this all that much.

Levi pretty much has to defend his titles at ToC no matter what the rest of the season is laid out like for him. It must be hard on him. I've always been impressed by how consistent he is over long months kind of like Hincapie.

Contador wasn't the only A team guy Astana didn't bring to the Giro this year. Keep in mind that last year they were so thrilled to get the invite that they brought everybody.
 
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BikeCentric said:
Before Leipheimer even blew up he got a flat tire and Armstrong did not wait for him.

I'm surprised you think it was Lances job to bridge him back up. Other guys get paid to do that.

Levi made no excuses but that flat couldn't have happened at a worse time. Right before the final climb in one of the hardest days ever seen according to many of the riders.
 
jackhammer111 said:
I'm surprised you think it was Lances job to bridge him back up. Other guys get paid to do that.

Levi made no excuses but that flat couldn't have happened at a worse time. Right before the final climb in one of the hardest days ever seen according to many of the riders.

It was Lance's job to bridge him back up. He was the only team-mate of Leipheimer's in a position to do it, and as you pointed out, that's what he was getting paid to do in that race - domestique for Leipheimer. Instead he rode away.
 
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BikeCentric said:
It was Lance's job to bridge him back up. He was the only team-mate of Leipheimer's in a position to do it, and as you pointed out, that's what he was getting paid to do in that race - domestique for Leipheimer. Instead he rode away.

You don't have to be Lance Armstrong to know what your job is in that position.
As the domestique for the final climb it was Lances job to stay with the contenders and wait for the others to bring Levi back. It would make no sense to have your main helper for the final climb to blow himself out bringing you back up. That's what you pay several other riders for. Once they have Levi back in position, their job is done. Who knows? maybe 1 or more of them could have helped on the final climb if they hadn't had to bring him back. That's the problem with an ill fated flat.

When he flatted there was a teammate right there with him. Soon, 2 more were there doing exactly what they are supposed to do.

Then the pink jersey group hit a decent and made it that much harder to catch up.

You seem to hate Lance so much that everything that happens is his fault.
 
jackhammer111 said:
There is no real evidence that Contador is being demoted for Lance despite the ranting of the anti Lance crowd here. Quite the opposite. Bruyneel knows Contador is the proven item at this time. Maybe Lance can do it, maybe not. It's Contador's team to lead and he'll need to lead it with his legs, not his lips.

If you looked at the quality of the support squad that was given to Contador in his races and compare it to what was racing with Armstrong, I think one would be blind (or an avid Armstrong fan) not to see the difference.
 
jackhammer111 said:
You don't have to be Lance Armstrong to know what your job is in that position.
As the domestique for the final climb it was Lances job to stay with the contenders and wait for the others to bring Levi back. It would make no sense to have your main helper for the final climb to blow himself out bringing you back up. That's what you pay several other riders for. Once they have Levi back in position, their job is done. Who knows? maybe 1 or more of them could have helped on the final climb if they hadn't had to bring him back. That's the problem with an ill fated flat.

When he flatted there was a teammate right there with him. Soon, 2 more were there doing exactly what they are supposed to do.

Then the pink jersey group hit a decent and made it that much harder to catch up.

You seem to hate Lance so much that everything that happens is his fault.

No, actually when Armstrong is on the bike I respect him a lot and consider him one of the fiercist and most impressive competitors in the sport. I actually love to watch him race and always have - the only time I "hate" him is when is opening his mouth off the bike because I usually don't like much of what he has to say.

Anyway, Armstrong rarely makes mistakes on the bike. In this situation he clearly did make a big mistake because yes, he SHOULD have bridged Levi back up to the leaders, doing ALL the work himself and letting Levi work as little as possible in his slipstream - that is a domestiques job in that situation. But Armstrong's instinct as a fierce competitor was to ignore Levi's problem and go after the leaders. On the one hand it's admirable because it shows why Armstrong is so good on the bike - he always wants to win no matter what and will always try to. On the other hand, he cost his team a shot at a higher place on the GC with this action and since he did not have the legs to win the stage he was part of the reason why Astana had such a disappointing Giro. All that being said, Leipheimer didn't have the legs that day anyway so it doesn't even matter that much, but it was an interesting episode because it showed Lance's reluctance to "sell out" and work hard for a team mate.
 
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BikeCentric said:
Anyway, Armstrong rarely makes mistakes on the bike. In this situation he clearly did make a big mistake because yes, he SHOULD have bridged Levi back up to the leaders, doing ALL the work himself and letting Levi work as little as possible in his slipstream - that is a domestiques job in that situation. But Armstrong's instinct as a fierce competitor was to ignore Levi's problem and go after the leaders.

Ok.. popo was out front on a break... lance was with the pink jersey and then there's levi... that's 3 guys... what the devil do you think the job of the other 5 guys (horner was gone) was in that spot? it's not like the great lance armstrong could have done a better job of getting him back up then the three guys who did.

tell me how it makes sense for lance to be the guy.

someone else address this.. i'm done.
 
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Alpe d'Huez said:
Uh, he beat up on Cat 1's, and pro's making $15k a year who slept in a van the night before the race. :mad:



No. His legs were done, and their strategy failed. No stage wins, no podium, no points.



A few ways. First, the rider in front sets a steady pace to where the rider behind can get into somewhat of a hypnotic groove and not be mentally fried about their suffering and yo-yo down the course. One way riders do this is to stare at the cassette or gearing/chain person in front of you. The other way is that you will get a little bit of a draft, yes. Not the 30% you will on the flats. But maybe 5%, which can help a lot when you're spent.

If you ride with friends or groups, try it. Not bonking yourself, but try following someone a little faster than you up a really big climb. Ask them to set a steady pace and try to sit on their wheel, stare at their cassette, and get into a groove.

It works. You probably won't be able to discern the work the lead guy is doing unless it is a good long climb--for sure you will especially notice it if there are multiple climbs.
 
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richwagmn said:
What I can't understand is why Bruyneel is throwing Contador under the wheels for an aging star like LA. He could have another 7 time tour winner. Instead, he's playing a long shot comeback story.

Haven't you heard that LA and JB plan on winning the next 7 Tours!?! Sheesh.

Has anyone yet mentioned that Lance won a crit yesterday?
 
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Martin318is said:
Thats Levi, not Contador.
Levi demonstrated on a few stages that he just didn't have it. Do you really believe that if Contador is showing himself to be strong (or in yellow even) that the team will circle wagons around LA and leave him high and dry?

Ridiculous!

Do you believe Lance will, for even one minute, ride for Contador? No way in hell. Lance is all about Lance 24/7.
 
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jackhammer111 said:
There is no real evidence that Contador is being demoted for Lance despite the ranting of the anti Lance crowd here. Quite the opposite. Bruyneel knows Contador is the proven item at this time. Maybe Lance can do it, maybe not. It's Contador's team to lead and he'll need to lead it with his legs, not his lips.

Has Bruyneel said Contador is the leader? Please send me a link.

Lance and Levi seem to think theyr'e equal leaders to Alberto. Unless Bruyneel is secretly saying something.

This looks like the same situation CSC had last year with the Schlecks and Sastre. It can work but there's one guy in the mix who won't ride for anyone but himself.
 
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richwagmn said:
Has Bruyneel said Contador is the leader? Please send me a link.

Lance and Levi seem to think theyr'e equal leaders to Alberto. Unless Bruyneel is secretly saying something.

This looks like the same situation CSC had last year with the Schlecks and Sastre. It can work but there's one guy in the mix who won't ride for anyone but himself.

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/cycling/2008-12-05-armstrong-contador_N.htm

"I'm going to be very fair about it and respect Johan's orders and respect the team," the 37-year-old Armstrong said. "If that means supporting Alberto or Levi (Leipheimer) or whoever it is, I'll respect them."

"It'll be the rider who arrives there the strongest," Bruyneel said. "Right now we know that Alberto is the strongest rider, and Lance, we don't know where he's at. Those doubts will be resolved during the race anyway, so for the Tour I hope there are no surprises or problems."

There's been more recent comments too.

The rule is always the same. The team supports the strongest rider.
Contador looks stronger and I don't think has shown his hand yet and Lance hasn't been close to winning in Europe. Popo finished stronger than he did in the giro. There's no proof that Lance should be team leader and Johan is no dummy.

That all said, I'm not being naive however. Johan has said that with all he's accomplished, winning alone doesn't do it for him any more. The idea of doing the unpresidented is what motivates him. Whether that's continuing to win every TDF his teams are in, for years or seeing Lance on the top step in Paris, or both, who can say?

We shall see.
 
jackhammer111 said:
http://www.usatoday.com/sports/cycling/2008-12-05-armstrong-contador_N.htm

"I'm going to be very fair about it and respect Johan's orders and respect the team," the 37-year-old Armstrong said. "If that means supporting Alberto or Levi (Leipheimer) or whoever it is, I'll respect them."

"It'll be the rider who arrives there the strongest," Bruyneel said. "Right now we know that Alberto is the strongest rider, and Lance, we don't know where he's at. Those doubts will be resolved during the race anyway, so for the Tour I hope there are no surprises or problems."

There's been more recent comments too.

The rule is always the same. The team supports the strongest rider.
Contador looks stronger and I don't think has shown his hand yet and Lance hasn't been close to winning in Europe. Popo finished stronger than he did in the giro. There's no proof that Lance should be team leader and Johan is no dummy.

That all said, I'm not being naive however. Johan has said that with all he's accomplished, winning alone doesn't do it for him any more. The idea of doing the unpresidented is what motivates him. Whether that's continuing to win every TDF his teams are in, for years or seeing Lance on the top step in Paris, or both, who can say?

We shall see.

Wow. You are gullible. You believe everything that someone says that supports your preconceptions and bandy it about like it were holy writ. Were you born with no street smarts whatsoever? I sure hope you don't get e-mails promising you a fortune from Nigeria.

What exactly do you expect Armstrong to say? "Chris, Levi, and I are planning to stab Contador in the back, and Johann will support us all the way."?
 
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jackhammer111 said:
http://www.usatoday.com/sports/cycling/2008-12-05-armstrong-contador_N.htm

"I'm going to be very fair about it and respect Johan's orders and respect the team," the 37-year-old Armstrong said. "If that means supporting Alberto or Levi (Leipheimer) or whoever it is, I'll respect them."

"It'll be the rider who arrives there the strongest," Bruyneel said. "Right now we know that Alberto is the strongest rider, and Lance, we don't know where he's at. Those doubts will be resolved during the race anyway, so for the Tour I hope there are no surprises or problems."

There's been more recent comments too.

The rule is always the same. The team supports the strongest rider.
Contador looks stronger and I don't think has shown his hand yet and Lance hasn't been close to winning in Europe. Popo finished stronger than he did in the giro. There's no proof that Lance should be team leader and Johan is no dummy.

That all said, I'm not being naive however. Johan has said that with all he's accomplished, winning alone doesn't do it for him any more. The idea of doing the unpresidented is what motivates him. Whether that's continuing to win every TDF his teams are in, for years or seeing Lance on the top step in Paris, or both, who can say?

We shall see.

Thanks for the link. I stand corrected.

Isn't this the sort of race CSC ran last year? Or was Sastre always the team leader?
 
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BroDeal said:
Wow. You are gullible. You believe everything that someone says that supports your preconceptions and bandy it about like it were holy writ. Were you born with no street smarts whatsoever? I sure hope you don't get e-mails promising you a fortune from Nigeria.

What exactly do you expect Armstrong to say? "Chris, Levi, and I are planning to stab Contador in the back, and Johann will support us all the way."?

After reading your signature, I'm a bit disappointed in your responses/tactics.
All opinions being equal, you seem to be under the impression that you are omniscient. Your anti-LA bent is transparent... evidence talks; opinions are like ***holes. Join the club Bro!:D