Teams & Riders Jakob Fuglsang discussion thread

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Escarabajo said:
Pantani_lives said:
Gigs_98 said:
Can anyone show me even one other example of a rider improving like that at this age?
Chris Horner
Geraint Thomas
Carlos Sastre
Sastre?
He was always good. It was just a matter of next man up!
I agree.

Actually Fuglsang hasn't improved that much. He's just winning races where he used to finish third or fourth. We still don't know if he's going to do better in the Tour than his seventh place in 2013.
 
Re:

Valv.Piti said:
Tour 2015: I didnt remember he was ordered to wait (briefly) on Nibali. Ok, my bad. But that doesnt chance the fact that he collapsed the next day and threw the GC. Yes, he entered breaks, but thats not what he came for. As I stated, Vino basically delcared him de facto captain after Nibali's collapse the day before.

Giro 2016. I was talking about the Giro, not the Tour, in that paragraph. I obviously knnowthat we cant use that Tour in the same year for anything. In that Giro he was very disappointing considering the realtively high expectations beforehand. And I dont wanna hear the luxury domestique argument in this case - I watched that race very closely.

Tour 2017: Yes, he as good at Chat which I forgot. Thats fair. He still lost quite a bit of time which basically put him out of contention for the win - that was probably still his better showing climbing wise in Tour de France. Shame he crashed so we couldnt assess it furhter.
Yeah, sorry. I misread about 2016.

About the 2016 Giro, things already started to go wrong for Fuglsang before they hit the infamous 3rd week. First, he had a mechanical on the gravel stage to Arezzo, which cost him 50 seconds and the opportunity to wear the Maglia Rosa. Then he was caught behind a crash on the stage to Asolo, almost losing 2 minutes again because of bad luck. This effectively ruined his giro before the 3rd week had even started. I am not saying that he would have made the top 5 in that race without his misfortunes, but really it set the hierarchy in a way so that Nibali could cement his leader position in the team. He was on a floating domestique role from that moment on, I think. Mentally, it probably broke him a little bit and added extra insult to his deroute in the GC.
 
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Valv.Piti said:
Broccolidwarf: Read my analysis and please try to understand that its simply untrue that he has been left has as luxury domestique for Nibali in these cases. I dont wanna hear thats the reason he has failed. The reason are that he has lacked high mountain climbing, lost a bunch of time on the first/second mountain stage and crashed. Thats it. I have watched the races. Very, very rarely has Fuglsang done any domestique work for Nibali. Very **** rarely. I watch races, I watch pretty much all hilly/mountanious stages in GTs, and this pushed narrative about being a domestique is UNTRUE.
Out of 12 GTs he has started 8 as a domestique - it's not a difficult concept to understand, nor is it "untrue" :)

Buddy, it's always the same with you.

Even if he wins the TdF, you will still find a reason for hating on Fuglsang - I honestly can't be bothered replying to any of your posts on the subject anymore :)
 
Broccolidwarf said:
Pantani_lives said:
Gigs_98 said:
Can anyone show me even one other example of a rider improving like that at this age?
Chris Horner
Geraint Thomas
Carlos Sastre
Cadel Evans I think is the most obvious one...... incidentally he was also 34 when he won his GT ;)
I'd put him in the same bag as Sastre. They were always good, they just got better results when the guys who used to beat them retired or was caught doping. Evans did adopt more adventurous tactics in his later years, though, after he became WC.
 
Re: Re:

Broccolidwarf said:
Valv.Piti said:
Broccolidwarf: Read my analysis and please try to understand that its simply untrue that he has been left has as luxury domestique for Nibali in these cases. I dont wanna hear thats the reason he has failed. The reason are that he has lacked high mountain climbing, lost a bunch of time on the first/second mountain stage and crashed. Thats it. I have watched the races. Very, very rarely has Fuglsang done any domestique work for Nibali. Very **** rarely. I watch races, I watch pretty much all hilly/mountanious stages in GTs, and this pushed narrative about being a domestique is UNTRUE.
Out of 12 GTs he has started 8 as a domestique - it's not a difficult concept to understand, nor is it "untrue" :)

Buddy, it's always the same with you.

Even if he wins the TdF, you will still find a reason for hating on Fuglsang - I honestly can't be bothered replying to any of your posts on the subject anymore :)
So, you think Fuglsang would be a multiple GT champion if he didn't happen to have been a teammate of Schleck or Nibali?

Or even have had a better final overall result than his 7th in the 2013 TdF?

I think that is highly unlikely and am in complete agreement with Valv. You seem to be a bit delusional about Fuglsang's level in previous years.

And please don't respond with one of your usual condescending "dude" or "buddy" or out-of-place smileys.

But one thing I will say: I think that Fuglsang can make the podium this year. Unless something more drastic happens to Ineos, the victory seems to difficult but second place is possible. Which it has not been close to being in earlier years.
 
Broccolidwarf said:
Pantani_lives said:
Gigs_98 said:
Can anyone show me even one other example of a rider improving like that at this age?
Chris Horner
Geraint Thomas
Carlos Sastre
Cadel Evans I think is the most obvious one...... incidentally he was also 34 when he won his GT ;)[/quote

Evans was always good, just like Sastre. Top 5 in the Tours in 2006, 2007 (20 seconds from victory) and 2008, where he was outgunned by the Saxo trident. Vuelta podium in 2009, Worlds victory 2009, 5th at Giro in 2010 before he won that Tour in 2011 (even though I dare to say that he only won because Contador rode the Giro and the Schlecks rode a hopeless race). Of these names mentioned, only Horner had a sudden, unexplainable jump in level, and to a lesser extent SKY-borg Thomas, who was 4th late into the 2015 Tour before DNF'ing after all. What I'm saying is that Evans didn't suddenly improve at this age (mid-30s) and neither did Sastre, as others have debunked already. Fuglsang has had a sudden, fascinating and honestly a bit weird improvement since 2016, and especially this year, but as a Dane myself, I can live with it :lol: but seriously though, I get why Gigs_98 asks, because I don't know what to make of this.
 
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RedheadDane said:
So, according to this article (in Danish) with B.T. one of the reasons can be because he removed a insole from his bike shoes. He used to have a his right sole be slightly thicker than the left because his right leg is slightly shorter than his left. However, that caused him to get blocked in his neck and back.
And one of the others reasons might be his change in eating.

Actually i am surprised if he didn't do these things before:
- made a plan for eating in a race
- more carbohydrates than before and better sense for what he needs of fat, protein and so on
- good at filling his depots after/under training

This means he can train harder and get better.

Up to 2019 I have always voted Fuglsang out of the GC in the tour (though he is always hyped by the Danish media). He would always have a bad day or a crash at a bad time. Only a few times he tried for the GC with full backup from the team. Other years they have focused at Nibali or Aru as nr. 1 and then changed in the race or not really backed him up.

But this year I'm not sure anymore - I think he needs trust and confidence from the team and he will have it this year - he changed a few things and he's might these 5 % percent better. Those little things can do a lot.
 
Re: Re:

Broccolidwarf said:
Valv.Piti said:
Broccolidwarf: Read my analysis and please try to understand that its simply untrue that he has been left has as luxury domestique for Nibali in these cases. I dont wanna hear thats the reason he has failed. The reason are that he has lacked high mountain climbing, lost a bunch of time on the first/second mountain stage and crashed. Thats it. I have watched the races. Very, very rarely has Fuglsang done any domestique work for Nibali. Very **** rarely. I watch races, I watch pretty much all hilly/mountanious stages in GTs, and this pushed narrative about being a domestique is UNTRUE.
Out of 12 GTs he has started 8 as a domestique - it's not a difficult concept to understand, nor is it "untrue" :)

Buddy, it's always the same with you.

Even if he wins the TdF, you will still find a reason for hating on Fuglsang - I honestly can't be bothered replying to any of your posts on the subject anymore :)
Thats just a gross oversimplification! Are we acting like he had any business contending for GT up until at least 2011? He has progressively gotten better and better each year. Just a bit, but enough. Therefore, lets not talk about the years where had to do real domestique work like 2010 Tour or 2011 Tour. Its totally irrelevant to this conversation. Riding a GT is drastically different to week long stage races where he always has been good.

The interesting conversation is from 2013 and onwards. Its incredibly delusional and chauvanistic to claim that the reason he hasnt done better has been because for domestique work in 2013-2018. I have made my pov very clear in that regard and I challenge you to change my mind. Can we point to specific years and specific stages where it has been a major factor compared to his general high mountain climbing level, consistency and crashing?
 
It's funny to think about Dauphiné 2009 when Fuglsang was battling with the likes of Evans, Valverde and Contador in his first season as a pro, eventually ending 6th in the GC.

At that time it certainly felt unrealistic that a win in this race a few years down the road would be a surprise - but let's just say that his development has not been linear.
 
And I will cheer for Fuglsang this year, but as with any other riders in the peloton, I will challenge viewpoints which I find wrong. And I find that domestique-narrative particularly wrong and so it doesnt matter if its Fuglsang or Valverde we are talking about. Up until this year I have more or less opposed the podium talk from 2017 and onwards, but every year is different and this year seems to be the year that he actually can challenge for the WIN for the first timein TdF (and my prediction, the last time). The circumstances are just that ideal, just like they were for Valverde in 2017 (obviously completely different set of circumstances, but same point). When you are Froome and Contador, you can win every year - when you are Sastre, Fuglsang and Riis, you probably only have one or at the very best two shots.
 
Re: Re:

Valv.Piti said:
Broccolidwarf said:
Valv.Piti said:
Broccolidwarf: Read my analysis and please try to understand that its simply untrue that he has been left has as luxury domestique for Nibali in these cases. I dont wanna hear thats the reason he has failed. The reason are that he has lacked high mountain climbing, lost a bunch of time on the first/second mountain stage and crashed. Thats it. I have watched the races. Very, very rarely has Fuglsang done any domestique work for Nibali. Very **** rarely. I watch races, I watch pretty much all hilly/mountanious stages in GTs, and this pushed narrative about being a domestique is UNTRUE.
Out of 12 GTs he has started 8 as a domestique - it's not a difficult concept to understand, nor is it "untrue" :)

Buddy, it's always the same with you.

Even if he wins the TdF, you will still find a reason for hating on Fuglsang - I honestly can't be bothered replying to any of your posts on the subject anymore :)
Thats just a gross oversimplification! Are we acting like he had any business contending for GT up until at least 2011? He has progressively gotten better and better each year. Just a bit, but enough. Therefore, lets not talk about the years where had to do real domestique work like 2010 Tour or 2011 Tour. Its totally irrelevant to this conversation. Riding a GT is drastically different to week long stage races where he always has been good.

The interesting conversation is from 2013 and onwards. Its incredibly delusional and chauvanistic to claim that the reason he hasnt done better has been because for domestique work in 2013-2018. I have made my pov very clear in that regard and I challenge you to change my mind. Can we point to specific years and specific stages where it has been a major factor compared to his general high mountain climbing level, consistency and crashing?
Well the conversation started because gigs ask for comparative improvement of a 34 year old to a 24 year old so the '10 & '11 are completely relevant.

Has he lived up to public expectation as a GT GC contender? Probably not, but to gigs question, he might not have done it earlier because he didn't really get the chance at 24, he got it at 32 forward.
 
Re: Re:

tobydawq said:
Broccolidwarf said:
Valv.Piti said:
Broccolidwarf: Read my analysis and please try to understand that its simply untrue that he has been left has as luxury domestique for Nibali in these cases. I dont wanna hear thats the reason he has failed. The reason are that he has lacked high mountain climbing, lost a bunch of time on the first/second mountain stage and crashed. Thats it. I have watched the races. Very, very rarely has Fuglsang done any domestique work for Nibali. Very **** rarely. I watch races, I watch pretty much all hilly/mountanious stages in GTs, and this pushed narrative about being a domestique is UNTRUE.
Out of 12 GTs he has started 8 as a domestique - it's not a difficult concept to understand, nor is it "untrue" :)

Buddy, it's always the same with you.

Even if he wins the TdF, you will still find a reason for hating on Fuglsang - I honestly can't be bothered replying to any of your posts on the subject anymore :)
So, you think Fuglsang would be a multiple GT champion if he didn't happen to have been a teammate of Schleck or Nibali?

Or even have had a better final overall result than his 7th in the 2013 TdF?

I think that is highly unlikely and am in complete agreement with Valv. You seem to be a bit delusional about Fuglsang's level in previous years.

And please don't respond with one of your usual condescending "dude" or "buddy" or out-of-place smileys.

But one thing I will say: I think that Fuglsang can make the podium this year. Unless something more drastic happens to Ineos, the victory seems to difficult but second place is possible. Which it has not been close to being in earlier years.
No, I mean what I wrote - not what you fantasize about I wrote - enjoy the smiley: :)
 
Just in recent history we've seen Peraud and Uran finish second in the Tour de France so let's withhold judgment until Fuglsang wins.

Obviously he reached "super-dom" status a few years ago and has won several 1-week stage races. And Astana as a whole looks stronger this year so it's not that big a surprise that he is seen as a contender.

Now if he wins the Tour easily while toying with the competition that would be quite a feat. Then again we saw that just last year so maybe not that unusual.
 
Re: Re:

jmdirt said:
Valv.Piti said:
Broccolidwarf said:
Valv.Piti said:
Broccolidwarf: Read my analysis and please try to understand that its simply untrue that he has been left has as luxury domestique for Nibali in these cases. I dont wanna hear thats the reason he has failed. The reason are that he has lacked high mountain climbing, lost a bunch of time on the first/second mountain stage and crashed. Thats it. I have watched the races. Very, very rarely has Fuglsang done any domestique work for Nibali. Very **** rarely. I watch races, I watch pretty much all hilly/mountanious stages in GTs, and this pushed narrative about being a domestique is UNTRUE.
Out of 12 GTs he has started 8 as a domestique - it's not a difficult concept to understand, nor is it "untrue" :)

Buddy, it's always the same with you.

Even if he wins the TdF, you will still find a reason for hating on Fuglsang - I honestly can't be bothered replying to any of your posts on the subject anymore :)
Thats just a gross oversimplification! Are we acting like he had any business contending for GT up until at least 2011? He has progressively gotten better and better each year. Just a bit, but enough. Therefore, lets not talk about the years where had to do real domestique work like 2010 Tour or 2011 Tour. Its totally irrelevant to this conversation. Riding a GT is drastically different to week long stage races where he always has been good.

The interesting conversation is from 2013 and onwards. Its incredibly delusional and chauvanistic to claim that the reason he hasnt done better has been because for domestique work in 2013-2018. I have made my pov very clear in that regard and I challenge you to change my mind. Can we point to specific years and specific stages where it has been a major factor compared to his general high mountain climbing level, consistency and crashing?
Well the conversation started because gigs ask for comparative improvement of a 34 year old to a 24 year old so the '10 & '11 are completely relevant.

Has he lived up to public expectation as a GT GC contender? Probably not, but to gigs question, he might not have done it earlier because he didn't really get the chance at 24, he got it at 32 forward.
- Which I all I've said all along.

Fuglsang is very similar to someone like Wout Poels in terms of his career (though Pools being 3 years behind).

When you are constantly riding for a main contender, you rarely get the chance to ride for yourself, and if you finally do, it is often after you have spent yourself entirely wrong in the race up to then.

If you end up as a dom for Mollema or Porte instead, you get loads of opportunities, it's a combination of luck of the draw, and big teams buying the best riders to support their captains.

Actually, I think few in here would find it odd, if Wout Pools was shooting for a TdF podium in 3 years, as a captain - on Ineos or elsewhere - so I wonder why everyone is on Fuglsangs case about it.
 
Re:

Valv.Piti said:
And I will cheer for Fuglsang this year, but as with any other riders in the peloton, I will challenge viewpoints which I find wrong. And I find that domestique-narrative particularly wrong and so it doesnt matter if its Fuglsang or Valverde we are talking about. Up until this year I have more or less opposed the podium talk from 2017 and onwards, but every year is different and this year seems to be the year that he actually can challenge for the WIN for the first timein TdF (and my prediction, the last time). The circumstances are just that ideal, just like they were for Valverde in 2017 (obviously completely different set of circumstances, but same point). When you are Froome and Contador, you can win every year - when you are Sastre, Fuglsang and Riis, you probably only have one or at the very best two shots.
I think it is too simple minded to just state that Fuglsangs lack of succes in TdF has not been affected by his typical role as a domestique. I mean, obviously it plays a part in why he has not achieved more succes that he has not had the confidence of a team to back him up.

But I also see it as just one of many variables. It should never be the full excuse for why he hasn't performed.
 
He's in monstrous form this year. He's been top 6 in every race he's done this year and has only finished off the podium twice. Super impressive considering there's such a mix of one days and stage races.

Murcia - 6th
Ruta del Sol - 1st
Strade Bianche - 2nd
Tirreno Adriatico - 3rd
Itzulia - 4th
Amstel Gold - 3rd
Flèche Wallonne - 2nd
Liège - 1st
Dauphiné - 1st
 
I always thought that Fulgsang was similar to Kreuzinger in terms of GC ability, and their ages are similar too. Roman was badly effected by the BP, but it would probably still be a little surprising if he were doing what Jakob was right now.

If we compare to Thomas, I think that G had less opportunities to ride for himself than Jakob. Fulgsang winning the TDF would be a slightly bigger surprise, though I didn't consider Thomas winning to be as ridiculous as some thought. Anyway, with Froome out and Dumoulin in doubt, Fulgsang has a decent chance at the podium I think.
 
Re: Re:

Cance > TheRest said:
Valv.Piti said:
And I will cheer for Fuglsang this year, but as with any other riders in the peloton, I will challenge viewpoints which I find wrong. And I find that domestique-narrative particularly wrong and so it doesnt matter if its Fuglsang or Valverde we are talking about. Up until this year I have more or less opposed the podium talk from 2017 and onwards, but every year is different and this year seems to be the year that he actually can challenge for the WIN for the first timein TdF (and my prediction, the last time). The circumstances are just that ideal, just like they were for Valverde in 2017 (obviously completely different set of circumstances, but same point). When you are Froome and Contador, you can win every year - when you are Sastre, Fuglsang and Riis, you probably only have one or at the very best two shots.
I think it is too simple minded to just state that Fuglsangs lack of succes in TdF has not been affected by his typical role as a domestique. I mean, obviously it plays a part in why he has not achieved more succes that he has not had the confidence of a team to back him up.

But I also see it as just one of many variables. It should never be the full excuse for why he hasn't performed.
But, but thats what I feel is being argued to a certain extent. It seems to be the overwhelming variable..
 

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