Jan Ullrich

[proffate]

Rapha had already a video called "Galibier" celebrating Pantani, I'm not so surprised to see Ulle coming in the game. Rapha business model is based on celebrating the past (St Raphaël was a team in the 50's-60's) and doesn't care about who was doping or not.

plus, ya know, the whole Sky deal...

I would say it's pretty unethical to either (a) try to sell something based on fame you only got via doping or (b) sponsor or pay a famous doper when you could sponsor or pay a famous clean rider (if you can find one). I don't begrudge Jan Ullrich his ability to make a living, I just wish he wouldn't do it in the cycling world, where his name carries weight only because he cheated. The same goes for other products like DZ nuts.

Then again, if you look back at the Rapha adverts from a few years past, you'll notice none of the riders are wearing helmets. I'd say that idealizing unsafe habits is also irresponsible, so I guess the message here is don't look to a marketing firm to be your moral compass.

 

[gillan1969]

plus, ya know, the whole Sky deal...

I would say it's pretty unethical to either (a) try to sell something based on fame you only got via doping or (b) sponsor or pay a famous doper when you could sponsor or pay a famous clean rider (if you can find one). I don't begrudge Jan Ullrich his ability to make a living, I just wish he wouldn't do it in the cycling world, where his name carries weight only because he cheated. The same goes for other products like DZ nuts.

Then again, if you look back at the Rapha adverts from a few years past, you'll notice none of the riders are wearing helmets. I'd say that idealizing unsafe habits is also irresponsible, so I guess the message here is don't look to a marketing firm to be your moral compass.

cycling without a helmet is not unsafe....

 

[Berzin]

Rapha had already a video called "Galibier" celebrating Pantani, I'm not so surprised to see Ulle coming in the game. Rapha business model is based on celebrating the past (St Raphaël was a team in the 50's-60's) and doesn't care about who was doping or not.

And that includes a lot of cyclng fans. Jan Ullrich isn't known as a doper exclusively. He had and still has lots of fans who were inspired by his style. Just like Pantani, just like a lot of other cats. In comparison to Armstrong? A grating personality with an absolutely horrible style on the bike that did nothing to inspire the same emotions that these two riders did. Like it or not, that's why Pantani and Ullrich, as former dopers, are still lionized.

Is there a moral disconnect, a hypocrisy at play here? Probably, but so what. The collective outrage meter on the Clinic always goes into overdrive when this comes up.

Ullrich and Pantani being marketed by an overpriced, niche clothing company to make pretentious, overbearing videos should be last on the list of outrages on anyone's list here. If it's not, y'all lead a charmed life. I wish that were the worst thing in my life to worry about.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

cycling without a helmet is not unsafe....

+1

This kind of reasoning / conclusion (Rapha shows cyclists sans helmet therefore they idealize unsafe habits) is unfortunate, and leads me to believe there could be a lack of critical thinking happening.

 

[Netserk]

(...) and leads me to believe there could be a lack of ̶c̶r̶i̶t̶i̶c̶a̶l̶ thinking happening.

 

[biokemguy]

correct

cycling without a helmet is not unsafe....

...but crashing without a helmet

 

[Dear Wiggo]

...but crashing without a helmet

... happens a lot in cars. All the time in fact. And noone bats an eyelid...

Like when Jan drove into a railing and damaged some riderless bicycles...

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2002/may/04/cycling.tourdefrance2002


On topic segue FTW!!!

 

[nomapnocompass]

Pantani was pretty nifty behind the wheel as well!

"Marco Pantani has once again been involved in a car accident, crashing and writing off his Mercedes in the town of Cesena. The Pirate was driving at speed the wrong way up a one-way street, before he struck some parked cars and then hit someone's porch. He was trapped inside the vehicle for some time, before being aided by a passer by, who noted he wasn't wearing a seatbelt. However, he was not seriously injured and refused to go to hospital after the incident. This is his third traffic accident of the year. "

Impressive!

 

[happychappy]

Pantani was pretty nifty behind the wheel as well!

This is his third traffic accident of the year. "

Impressive!

What a dirty little cokehead. At least he had the good grace to off himself before he took an innocent pedestrian/cyclist with him.

 

[ultimobici]

What a dirty little cokehead. At least he had the good grace to off himself before he took an innocent pedestrian/cyclist with him.

Charming! Evidently you haven't heard the adage, "if you haven't anything nice to say, say nothing"

 

[Susan Westemeyer]

Stay on topic please: Jan Ullrich.

 

[Neworld]

If you read back in this topic, notably this post http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showpost.php?p=1213167&postcount=1023

you could notice a clear pattern in Jan's seasons. Perhaps not for Ullrich 'fans', but for people who have no emotional attachement it does work.

I am not judging Ullrich, I just look at his statistics. He doped good for the Tour de Bore, the rest of the season did not interest him very much, apart from 1997 it looks like.

Sorry Fearless,

I never got back to you way back, I lost my Dad and...

All I am saying is yes Jan doped, and he was probably as good of a responder as the rest of those champions that decided to dope.

But, to dissect stats from decades ago when we don't know when and how exactly Jan was doping, was precisely overweight, sick, etc... makes interpretation of the fact tenuous at best.

Yes I find a sense of fan-hood for Jan, his demeanour, his riding style, he never-ending fight...but I was and am not a 'fanatic'.

Jan will always be a pleasant talking point for me. I must say tho when he obliquely supported Lance during his recent Oprah fiasco...I lost a decent amount of respect for him as a person. He could have done a lot more, hopefully he will one day.

Contemporary cheats like Jens Voigt, the 'twitter-twit', are truly malevolent. My thoughts.

NW

 

[thehog]

Good news that Jan has done a deal with Rapha to be a brand consultant.

Looking forward to him growing a beard so he can appear in the advertisements.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Sorry Fearless,

I never got back to you way back, I lost my Dad and...

All I am saying is yes Jan doped, and he was probably as good of a responder as the rest of those champions that decided to dope.

But, to dissect stats from decades ago when we don't know when and how exactly Jan was doping, was precisely overweight, sick, etc... makes interpretation of the fact tenuous at best.

Yes I find a sense of fan-hood for Jan, his demeanour, his riding style, he never-ending fight...but I was and am not a 'fanatic'.

Jan will always be a pleasant talking point for me. I must say tho when he obliquely supported Lance during his recent Oprah fiasco...I lost a decent amount of respect for him as a person. He could have done a lot more, hopefully he will one day.

Contemporary cheats like Jens Voigt, the 'twitter-twit', are truly malevolent. My thoughts.

NW

We agree, and sorry to read the personal loss, it would be nice if Jan and all the others alive broke their own omerta and told us what they did and why.

Der Jan is still okay in my book too. Wasnt a fan at the time but I liked his personality.

 

[Franklin]

We agree, and sorry to read the personal loss, it would be nice if Jan and all the others alive broke their own omerta and told us what they did and why.

Is it hard to imagine? Jan wanted to succeed as a cyclist and took everything "needed". Him coming from the DDR wouldn't have helped his doping morals, but truth to be told western riders never had problems getting the regime going

Then when he got at the apex he just used what he thought was neccesary, undoubtedly muting any guild he might have had wit: We all do it.

If anything is clear that doping is the norm in the Pro peleton (and most likely in the upper tier of amateurs as well). And that's from the first day a cyclist had to compete over a century ago, not just since Epo.

I'd say it's more interesting to talk to those who became pro and never used doping, as that is actually deviating from the norm. Problem is there are ever so few who can be reliably put in that group.

 

[Neworld]

We agree, and sorry to read the personal loss, it would be nice if Jan and all the others alive broke their own omerta and told us what they did and why.

Der Jan is still okay in my book too. Wasnt a fan at the time but I liked his personality.

Cheers.

You and I were never really arguing too far off...just different approaches. I have to check myself tho and not be critical of instances when other riders I don't like look suspicious and then give riders I do like a free pass. I 'try' to be objective.

I really tried to like Ryder, but now that he's selectively confessed... he's gone too.

I will hang onto the thought of Bauer and Lemond being clean until something objective surfaces to say otherwise. As for Jan, he was an enigma to competitive cycling and will be a confessional conundrum too.

I doubt Kloden will confess either. Hey what ever happened to that Matthias Kessler and his head injury after hitting that cat? Did he ever recover enough to return to normal life?

NW

 

[Samson777]

Cheers.

You and I were never really arguing too far off...just different approaches. I have to check myself tho and not be critical of instances when other riders I don't like look suspicious and then give riders I do like a free pass. I 'try' to be objective.

I really tried to like Ryder, but now that he's selectively confessed... he's gone too.

I will hang onto the thought of Bauer and Lemond being clean until something objective surfaces to say otherwise. As for Jan, he was an enigma to competitive cycling and will be a confessional conundrum too.

I doubt Kloden will confess either. Hey what ever happened to that Matthias Kessler and his head injury after hitting that cat? Did he ever recover enough to return to normal life?

NW

I also seriously doubt that Klöden will ever come clean. Don't really se why he would do that. Unless some new details, perhaps from his Astana adventure should come about.
But even then, I'm not sure why he would confess. Unless he's planing for a working future in cycling, and will need to make some kind of confession to stay in the sport.

I guess that goes for most ex riders, who never came clean.

 

[Neworld]

... I'm not sure why he would confess. Unless he's planing for a working future in cycling, and will need to make some kind of confession to stay in the sport.

I guess that goes for most ex riders, who never came clean.

That is the problem, his recent CN interview eluded to him wanting to coach or DS a cycling team. Maybe he could coach Horner, that would be a relationship that would flourish...not.

 

[angelofthehills]

Hey what ever happened to that Matthias Kessler and his head injury after hitting that cat? Did he ever recover enough to return to normal life?

NW

Jan had a picture on his Facebook page last summer of him and Mrs. Ulle attending Matze Kessler's wedding in Austria. That certainly sounds like a step towards normal life
JU Facebook Photos

Jan looking very fit and handsome these days. Middle age becomes him.

 

[Samson777]

Jan had a picture on his Facebook page last summer of him and Mrs. Ulle attending Matze Kessler's wedding in Austria. That certainly sounds like a step towards normal life
JU Facebook Photos

Jan looking very fit and handsome these days. Middle age becomes him.

Wow yeah you are certainly right, Ullrich is looking healthy
Sounds strange to write something like that, everything taken into account, but he actually does.

 

[thehog]

Wow yeah you are certainly right, Ullrich is looking healthy
Sounds strange to write something like that, everything taken into account, but he actually does.

He does. Never seen him so skinny. The Rapha deal is a good one.

 

[Neworld]

He does. Never seen him so skinny. The Rapha deal is a good one.

That Red digital readout says +2000...wthell...those legs look pretty skinny to punch out +2000 watts

Thanks for the pics

NW

 

[Franklin]

I met him a few times in his TdF years and trust me.. the guys was a stick. Just not a straw.

I always thought most "Jan is fat" was psycholgical warfare from the LA camp.

Example. Fat Jan:

Yet the same guy in the same GT

Some photo's are a day apart, so unless the stories about Jan's fat guzzling are just a thin refection of what he really could ingest in just one meal, I'd say the evidence indicates that a lot of the slams against Jan's fat were not deserved.

 

[jens_attacks]

we all love ulle but he had some problems in the winter with the weight, it's not a myth fueled by bruyneel

That honour fell to Ullrich, who had apparently celebrated his Tour win a little too much, and had piled on the pounds as a result. “He’s a good 10 to 15kg overweight,” a team-mate told me one day. And if that was true, he had a good amount of dieting ahead of him if he wanted to make it to fighting weight in time for the Tour.

from bjarne's book

 

[Franklin]

we all love ulle but he had some problems in the winter with the weight, it's not a myth fueled by bruyneel

I met the guy quite a few times and unless facts are being presented I trust my eyes over hearsay. Clearly the much used pictures can almost all be shwn as nonsense by pictures days earlier or later.

1. Who knows if the team-mate wasn't over exagerating?
2. Riis relation with Jan is not without it's own angles. There was a book to sell, Riis is portraying himself as a pro who sacrificed all. Enough reasons to add a small slam against Jan.

That year Ulli failed even though Riis was coaching him. But without his boink this ill behaved upstart would have won the TdF by a large margin. So what exactly remains of a guy who partied so hard that he was 15kg overweight? A contender who was well on his way to win his second TdF. Weight was not a factor at all that TdF so the statement in the book of Riis is rather defanged by what transpired that year.

Did Jan have disciplinarian issues? Of course, too many sources indicate this was a big problem. But there is clearly a very strong strain of LA mindscrewage. "He's the most talented guy" yet beating him, so driving home the message that Jan was doing things wrong.

Look at the gut:

Now those were years we know he was actually young and fit, but it's easy to cherry pick some pictures to show Jan is a lardy guy. I have one of Lance where he looks like he's 200 pounds and everyone immediately says "diaphragm breathing!", which certainly is the truth, but you seldom hear used about Jan.

Best proof though remains the TdF 2005, where we have rotund Michelin guy who a day later in better weather looks thinner than in his golden years.

Jan had his share of issues and demons, but his weight was overblown immensely.