there are some posters placing significant emphysis on :thehog said:I tend to agree. If Vaughters is right with his 42% hct assessment, then yes.
Julich appears to have backed up this statement on Ullrich.
He's running at 42% and finishing 2nd at the Tour = talent.
What was Lance? 54% saline’d down to 48%?
You had quite some questions, hope you don't mind I ask one:Neworld said:To just say Jan was a super-responder without stating which of his competitors were or were not similarly endowed
You're proving my point...sort of.Samson777 said:You had quite some questions, hope you don't mind I ask one:
If Der Jan was not a super responder, don't you think it is crazy that he was 2 in his first ever tour? His medical competition taken into consideration.
If that was not due to super responding, but "talent". He truly was the "greatest talent of the century".
I think you mean "innate talent" rather than "training talent". But Merckx was famous for the simplicity of his coaching advice: "ride lots". So how do you know how much he or any of these guys leaned on training response as opposed to natural base level? Your argument is circular: if they got to the top of GTs early, they're talented, and talent is what allowed them to get to the top of GTs early.IndianCyclist said:If one has talent, it is easy to get to top level at a young age eg. Merckx, Hinault, Lemond, Fignon, Ullrich, Contador, Schleck. These also typically get to top level with little training. Others have to ride for years to get to that level and keep training vigorously for months to sustain that level eg. LA, Froome, Basso, Sastre, Cadel etc.
Very interesting. I also respond to training very well. I smoke a bag of tobacca [shag here in Holland] per two days and after one ride on my bike, a hard one, I seem to be opening my lungs. Subsequently I have no real problems to get to my level of riding of fifteen years ago. Must be genetics.Merckx index said:I’ve been reading the book The Sports Gene. The author argues that there are two main kinds of genetic influence on athletic ability. One is innate talent, which, depending on the sport, might be manifested in body shape, musculature, VO2 max, visual acuity, etc. The other appears in the athlete’s ability to improve from training. Studies involving several different sports (including one measuring VO2 max) indicate that some individuals are high responders to training, others respond much less to the exact same training program, and some not at all. So there are some individuals who show unusual talent before any training, but don’t improve much as a result of training; and conversely, there are others who exhibit no particular talent prior to training, but whose performance takes off when they begin a training program.
Most likely, elite athletes, including the best GT riders, are gifted in both respects. But it could be that Ulle was an unusually high responder to training, so that in the absence of training his performances were relatively mundane, whereas following training he improved far faster and to a much greater extent than others following the same program.
Of course, doping has to be taken into account, too. But the point is, we don’t know enough about the interaction of innate talent, innate ability to improve upon training, and innate response to doping to tease out all these factors for any particular athlete. Only recently have scientists begun making measurements in very young individuals that can detect the presence of extraordinary levels of innate talent, pre-training. In most cases, exceptional talent is not recognized until the athlete actually begins winning competitions, at which point the other factors may also be involved.
Absolutely crap untill that one race in july. His baseline results are just too low to speak of innate talent. Same goes for the years 1996 till 1999. No responder to training, doping worked too good for Jan to train.Fearless Greg Lemond said:* 11/02/2000 - 19/02/2000
Vodacom Rapport Toer
Endstand in der Gesamtwertung: 1. Steinhauser (Scheidegg) 26:08: 50 h, 2. Elli (Italien) 1:45 min zurück, 3. Ordowski (Weiden) 3:52, 4. Michaelsen 4:04, 5. Hondo 5:35, 6. White (Südafrika) 6:41, ... 10. Wegmann (Münster) 8:15,
32. Ullrich (Merdingen) 33:00
* 01-03-2000 - 05-03-2000
Vuelta Ciclista a Murcia
1. David CANADA (Esp) en 18h09'31"
93. Jan Ullrich (All) à 50'02"
* 8/03/2000 - 15/03/2000
Tirreno - Adriatico
5. Etappe, Einzelzeitfahren (26,5 km): 1. Olano (Spanien) 31:36 min; 2. Hruska (Tschechien) 9 s zurück; 2. Dominguez (Spanien) 28
30 Ullrich (All) 2:07
Gesamtwertung: 1. Olano 19:26:28 h; 2. Hruska 9 s zurück; 3. Dominguez 18 9. Voigt (Berlin) 1:11; 149. Ullrich 28:16
Ullrich doesnt start stage 8
* DNS Circuit Cycliste Sarthe 04-04-2000 - 07-04-2000 due to a cold
* DNS Vuelta Ciclista a Aragón 12-04-2000 - 16-04-2000
* 16-05-2000 - 21-05-2000
GP du Midi-Libre
Stage 4 : Laguiole - Laguiole I.T.T. (26 km)
1 Christophe Moreau (Fra) Festina-Lotus 37.16 (42.2 km/h)
2 Jonathan Vaughters (USA) Crédit Agricole 0.35
3 Unai Extebarria (Ven) Euskaltel-Euskadi 0.38
4 Steffen Kjaergaard (Nor) Us Postal Service 0.46
64 Paolo Tiralongo (Ita) Fassa Bortolo 3.18
66 Jan Ullrich (Ger) Team Deutsche Telekom-Ard 3.18
Stage 5 : Saint Geniez d'Olt - L'Esperou (185 km) Mountainstage
1 Gorazd Stangelj (Slo) Liquigas-Pata 4.41.51 (37.467 km/h)
3 David Moncoutie (Fra) Cofidis
54 Koen Deschuyter (Bel) Collstrop-De Federale Verzekeringen 29.52
55 Bert Scheirlinckx (Bel) Collstrop 31.47
68 Jan Ullrich (Ger) Team Deutsche Telekom-Ard same time
Stage 6 : Le Vigan - Sète (157 km)
1 Rodolfo Massi (Ita) Cantina Tollo 3.50.03
84 Jonathan Vaughters (USA) Crédit Agricole 13.39 oops
DNF Jan Ullrich (Ger) Team Deutsche Telekom-Ard
DNF Jens Heppner (Ger) Team Deutsche Telekom-Ard
DNF Giovanni Lombardi (Ita) Team Deutsche Telekom-Ard
DNF Alexandre Vinokourov (Kaz) Team Deutsche Telekom-Ard [crash]
''The stage honours went to Cantina Tollo's Rodolfo Massi, in one of his best results since the 1998 Tour before the inquisition began. Now cleared of charges, Massi went on the attack in the first few kilometres of the stage, all uphill. At the top of the 600 m high Côte de Mondardier, he had 40 seconds on a chasing group containing Vinokourov, Moreau and four others. Telekom's Jan Ullrich was already in trouble and later abandoned the stage.''
* 26/05/2000 - 1/06/2000
29. GER ULLRICH Jan
TT: 1. ESP PLAZA ROMERO David
9. GER ULLRICH Jan TEL 02'33"
* 13/06/2000 - 22/06/2000
Tour de Suisse
Stage 5 : Sierre - Sierre I.T.T. (30 km)
1. LAT BELOHVOSCIKS Raivis
3. GER ULLRICH Jan TEL 16"
Tour de Suisse, General classification
5. GER ULLRICH Jan TEL 02'07"
And so on. Very poor untill Switzerland.
I worry for your long term health mate, you may want to be concerned about your 50's to 70's and not what you can think you can do today.Fearless Greg Lemond said:Very interesting. I also respond to training very well. I smoke a bag of tobacca [shag here in Holland] per two days and after one ride on my bike, a hard one, I seem to be opening my lungs. Subsequently I have no real problems to get to my level of riding of fifteen years ago. Must be genetics.
Looks like in the year 2000, when there was equal EPO to water, Jan was using a lot less until when he had to compete.But, what do you make of this:
Absolutely crap untill that one race in july. His baseline results are just too low to speak of innate talent. Same goes for the years 1996 till 1999. No responder to training, doping worked too good for Jan to train.
When you loose 3 minutes - and TT with the likes of Paolo Tiralongo - on Vaughters [riding clean at CA according to himself] in the Midi Libre, I quialify those kinda results as crap.Neworld said:The real questions are:
1. Up until Jun 2000, was Jan competing against an EPO-laden pack while abstaining? That would be impressive.
2. Was he using as much EPO as the rest and performing poorly?
3. Why wouldn't Jan use EPO etc... during those early 2000 months, or was he maxing out and performed poorly?
4. Was he taking EPO as the rest but not trying? Or, trying and failing despite doping? IF the latter, then why did he suddenly shine in July?
Pretty confusing...I would love to hear your explanation other than just stating it is crap.
With that logic, you agree that Jan rode the Midi Libre (May) WITHOUT EPO, against an EPO charged group and earned the results above?Fearless Greg Lemond said:Take that ITT at the Midi Libre. Jan loses 3 minutes on Moreau, two months later in the Tour he is 2 minutes faster than Moreau.
To me it looks like he started with his doping regime in prep for just that one event in july, and, responded pretty well to it. And I am pretty sure Moreau did the same, he just juiced earlier in the season, I think, according to the new forum rules...
He lost 3 minutes on Vaughters - who was clean at that time - there at the Midi Libre TT, does that say anything to you? At the opening TT of the Tour he suddenly was 50 seconds faster, over 16.5 kilometres. That is a four minute gain, not even mentioning the shorter distance.Neworld said:With that logic, you agree that Jan rode the Midi Libre (May) WITHOUT EPO, against an EPO charged group and earned the results above?
Humm, not sure that supports your argument.
And, why wouldnt' Jan use EPO then or earlier in the year. It is well documented that EPO allows you to train longer, harder and even attain better O2 Vector metrics. That would not make sense either.
In terms of the weight of your evidence, trying to make sense of 'why' Jan did so poorly against a clean JV, over a decade ago and justifying it with simply the result is about 2/10.Fearless Greg Lemond said:He lost 3 minutes on Vaughters - who was clean at that time - there at the Midi Libre TT, does that say anything to you? At the opening TT of the Tour he suddenly was 50 seconds faster, over 16.5 kilometres. That is a four minute gain, not even mentioning the shorter distance.
To the bold underlined:
it does seem to look that way. And to me he looks like one of the best responders.
If you read back in this topic, notably this post http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showpost.php?p=1213167&postcount=1023Neworld said:In terms of the weight of your evidence, trying to make sense of 'why' Jan did so poorly against a clean JV, over a decade ago and justifying it with simply the result is about 2/10.
Maybe Jan was: sick; sick and overweight, still in poor spring shape for a GT racer planning to assault the TdF with EPO etc... Can you really come down as hard as you are based on what JV did and Jan, who are 2 totally types of riders, with different plans that year?
Which brings me to your last comments. As I said, maybe Jan was a good responder...but do you really think that his 'equal' GT competitors were less of responders? unlikely.
And, in the opening TT of the TdF 2000 it was pretty flat...not suited to JV (who is not in the same stratosphere as Jan in any ITT) but clearly suited to the power of Janski. Maybe JV just wanted to save his energy over the Tour knowing full well he had NO chance of placing high and would only be wasting his energy. Again in this debate your evidence is poorly weighted.
There is a Montauban-de-Bretagne very close to Bobet's birthplace (Saint-Méen-le-grand). It's about 30 km from Rennes and I have raced there as well as waited for a lift on the main road, hitchiking my way homeFearless Greg Lemond said:........
The Vaughters comparison does add up. In 1999 he was doped up and won the Route du Sud, in the FLAT Montauban - Montauban, ITT, 11.1 kms he lost 11 seconds on Moreau, or maybe they found a mountain in Bretagne?
Sorry le breton. I stand corrected.Le breton said:There is a Montauban-de-Bretagne very close to Bobet's birthplace (Saint-Méen-le-grand). It's about 30 km from Rennes and I have raced there as well as waited for a lift on the main road, hitchiking my way home
The "de-Bretagne" is needed to distinguish it from the much bigger Montauban located a TT distance North of Toulouse.
It was pretty stupid, to say the least.Le breton said:Blunder, come on, no big deal
More funny quotes there but I will let others decide on that.Jan Ullrich: „Ich bin Asthmatiker“
Medikamente sind gefunden, der öffentliche Aufschrei ist riesengroß, weil der Radstar Kortekoide und Cortison nimmt. Jan Ullrich macht dagegen einen Eindruck, als sei alles eine Bagatelle.
„Ich bin Asthmatiker und brauche gegen meine Beschwerden Sprays und Tabletten, und wenn es schlimm kommt Kortison. Aber das ist alles kein Problem, das steht in meinem Gesundheitspass, nicht nur mein Arzt, auch der des Weltverbandes weiß Bescheid. Ich lasse mich in meiner Vorbereitung auf die Tour de France nicht beirren und mir mein großes Ziel nicht vermiesen.“
I do like statistics.In diesem Jahr kommt ein neues Modewort hinzu. Denn mittlerweile weiß man, dass eine signifikant hohe Anzahl von Sportlern asthmakrank ist. Jedenfalls fanden sich Ärzte, die ein entsprechendes Attest ausstellten. In manchen Disziplinen liegt die Asthma-Quote bei 70 bis 80 Prozent. Zahlen, die Dopingfahndern höchst unglaubwürdig vorkommen. Zum Vergleich: Im bundesdeutschen Durchschnitt ist nur jeder Fünfundzwanzigste Asthmatiker.