Jan Ullrich

[Race Radio]

According to Dims list around 79. Anyway a lot.

Back to the topic at hand.

Jaksche gave a chilling account of his doping to Der Spiegal

It was in German but well translated into English here:

http://drunkcyclist.com/2007/07/10/joerg-jaksche-der-spiegel-article-translation/

Worth reading in regards to the pressure to dope and the way the team managers manipulated the situation.

Getting a contract in cycling is like prostituation. It's fairly bad.

So back to Jan, yeah, I understand his predicament and the pressure to dope.

Interesting how you do not hear the same from Jan. Maybe it is because he started his own program from 99 onward. Pevenage, Jan's pusher, supplier, doctor was barred from the team. When he returned to Telekom for the 2004 team management made it clear that Pevenage was not part of the deal. Despite team management telling Jan he should have nothing to do Rudy Jan continued to work with him. Ultimately they caved and jumped back in bed with him for a few months in 2006....stupid move.

 

[thehog]

Some of this is true, I think in Jan's case not and certainly for the era.

Doping was free reign. EPO wasn't really tested until in late 2001 and even then around 2003 until the Gen2 test came in.

You can't pick Jan out and say - "look at him". The entire era was soaked with dope and the UCI aided and abetted it.

Now, in regards to guys coming from no where, sure that happened. It's worse today because you have doped guys beating clean guys and the percentage increase is much greater.

Make no mistake Jan was winning well before the EPO and transfusion eras. It's not like he was a Froome, or a Soler or a Santa. He's the real deal.

Sure he doped but what choice did he have at 19 being hired by Telekom?

Put yourself at 19, whatchya gonna do?

Sponsors and teams need to shoulder some of this blame. Forever blaming the riders not realising the consequence of their actions. Many turned a blind eye instead of helping and now their ones pointing fingers.

This quote comes to mind:



And Aldag.

The link to quote from d'Hont in regards Telekom organising the doping program and pressuring the riders comes from here:

http://english.pravda.ru/news/world/29-04-2007/90690-new_book-0/

Interesting he put his dirty hands all over Telekom, blamed the riders then went off to Astana which had its infamous 2007 Vino moment.

"Godefroot organized and financed the doping system."

Riis, the Danish team captain, won the Tour de France in 1996, while Ullrich finished second and captured cycling's biggest prize the following year.

Godefroot, now the Astana team boss, told Der Spiegel through a lawyer that he denied any accusations that "I asked anyone to take banned substances or that I organized anything of this kind."

Telekom caused a massive mess with their riders. Interestingly when Stapelton took over he went from firing Jan & co. and hiring Hincapie!

The whole story is probably better than the Armstrong saga.

The alliance between Stapleton and Telekom failed because of a misunderstanding over how Stapleton was to deal with the doping issue. While executives in Bonn were constantly reading headlines equating the name of the company with doping, Stapleton insisted that his job was to work on the future and not constantly revisit the past.

Team T-Mobile's general manager Bob Stapleton didn't want to deal with the sins of the past.

In keeping with this philosophy, Stapleton had no qualms about signing fellow American George Hincapie for the coming season. Hincapie, 34, was Lance Armstrong's trusted lieutenant during his series of Tour victories. In 2005, the tall American won the most difficult mountain stage of the Tour, even though he had never excelled as a mountain specialist before.

For Telekom, Hincapie was just another image problem, a time bomb because he probably knows a great deal about Armstrong's miraculous trail of victories. But Despite the company's attempts to convince him to change his mind, Stapleton insisted on hiring Hincapie.

The rift between Stapleton and Telekom had become so wide that the separation had to be painstakingly negotiated. On Nov. 6, the company's board of directors decided to examine ways to get rid of Stapleton immediately.

The simplest approach was not an option. Although Stapleton's contract with Telekom included an exit clause, it only applied to a current doping case, of which there were none in November. Stapleton apparently insisted on being paid the full salary to which he would have been entitled until his contract expired: €45 million.

His attorneys hired detectives to interview former riders and company employees in an attempt to obtain incriminating material against Telekom. Their goal was to find out whether Telekom had secretly known about -- and covered up -- widespread doping in the 1990s. But they turned up empty-handed.

Stapleton took his time -- a full three weeks -- before finally signing an agreement with Telekom to dissolve his contract. In the end, the former partners were practically at each other's throats. Officials at Telekom refused to comment on the cost of the separation, but it is likely to have been in the neighborhood of €20-25 million -- a hefty sum to avoid bad publicity.

Telekom wanted to rehire Jaksche and had a verbal deal to do so. But once they were forced out Stapleton refused to hire him.

Stapleton plans to use the money to continue operating his High Road racing outfit, as a very American team -- with Hincapie as its star, of course, but without Jaksche. Stapleton, like many team managers, was never seriously interested in Jaksche.

http://www.spiegel.de/international...-jaksche-left-out-in-the-cold-a-522031-2.html

Hincapie seriously? Jaksche confessed to everything and they hire Hincapie at 3m a year!

Cycling is so *** sometimes. Guys like Stapleton don't help.

 

[Race Radio]

Telekom caused a massive mess with their riders.

You mean Godfrote caused a massive mess.

His attorneys hired detectives to interview former riders and company employees in an attempt to obtain incriminating material against Telekom. Their goal was to find out whether Telekom had secretly known about -- and covered up -- widespread doping in the 1990s. But they turned up empty-handed.

Board members of Telekom were furious with the hiring of Hincapie. Maybe Stapleton was trying to force their hand, push them for a payout. it worked

 

[thehog]

It's all those neo-pro's that I feel sorry for. No access to transfusions. Valverde, Cuengo, Contador all deprived from such a young age to blood doping

The OP documents showed Ullrich didn't use any bloodbags at the 2006 Giro.

He won the ITT and was climbing well.

Before the SMS dropped.

Mind you Jan has never said everyone was doing transfusions. He was just telling the story how it was back then.

Kudos to him.

 

[Race Radio]

The OP documents showed Ullrich didn't use any bloodbags at the 2006 Giro.

He won the ITT and was climbing well.
.

Nope.

The Puerto files show Jan was one of Fuentes clients who received blood bags during the Giro. There are also taped phone calls between Rudy and Fuentes during the Giro coordinating the delivery of additional blood

 

[McLovin]

The OP documents showed Ullrich didn't use any bloodbags at the 2006 Giro.

He won the ITT and was climbing well.
Kudos to him.

Ullrich was climbing well during the Giro? He was like a stone. He just appeared in front of the group on a climb for a few hundred meters just to finish minutes behind on that stage.
And I think Ullrich flew to Madrid during a rest day in that Giro. Was he atourist? A city breaker? He visited some nice objectives because he won the ITT days later.

 

[webvan]

Yeah that was just afte the ITT, I remember the commentators saying that maybe he would give the Giro a shot (hehe) after all.

About the BBs, didn't Pevenage send that infamous SMS to Fuentes just after the GIro ITT too, saying that Ullrich wanted more bags than initially planned since the first had worked well? I'd always assumed that was in relation to that ITT where he smashed the competition.

 

[D-Queued]

Yeah that was just afte the ITT, I remember the commentators saying that maybe he would give the Giro a shot (hehe) after all.

About the BBs, didn't Pevenage send that infamous SMS to Fuentes just after the GIro ITT too, saying that Ullrich wanted more bags than initially planned since the first had worked well? I'd always assumed that was in relation to that ITT where he smashed the competition.

Ah, yes, that was a weird performance.

And, for the record, the blood infusion underscores the inanity of the claims of special talent.

Put on a supercharger, and it runs like it has a supercharger. Nothing inherently special in that.

Dave.

 

[Race Radio]

Yeah that was just afte the ITT, I remember the commentators saying that maybe he would give the Giro a shot (hehe) after all.

About the BBs, didn't Pevenage send that infamous SMS to Fuentes just after the GIro ITT too, saying that Ullrich wanted more bags than initially planned since the first had worked well? I'd always assumed that was in relation to that ITT where he smashed the competition.

Yes, he said he wanted more but 1/2 the amount of the first transfusion. I assume it was becuase they did not want to draw down on his stash.

Interesting to note who Rudy called to thank immediately after Jan won the TT, Fuentes. He knew who deserved credit for Jan's performance

 

[thehog]

Ah, yes, that was a weird performance.

And, for the record, the blood infusion underscores the inanity of the claims of special talent.

Put on a supercharger, and it runs like it has a supercharger. Nothing inherently special in that.

Dave.

I don't think anyone disregards to the effects of a transfusion. That’s why they give them to sick people!

The point being made was that Jan wasn’t Chris Froome. He demonstrated well before the transfusion era and EPO that he could ITT and flatline sprint and was a good rouleur from an early age.

He’s climbing wasn’t bad not diabolical.

Since his contact with Fuentes his performances went down. 9 minutes off Armstrong in 2004 and was killed in 2005.

His 2003 ITT and Giro ITT are standouts outside of this.

He was a better rider without the drugs it seems… but in the world in which he existed you need to dope. Well you had to dope.

The further point is some Team Telekom staff who allowed and fostered this environment to be created.

They have some blood on their hands on all of this - pardon the pun.

Dope is wrong. But he was 19. He was trying to support both his mother and brother.

Clearly his events of his life shows that he was uncomfortable with the existence.

Its not like his life has been perfect for the last 7-8 years!

 

[LouieLouie]

Put on a supercharger, and it runs like it has a supercharger. Nothing inherently special in that.

Adding a supercharger to an engine which is already running 12:1 compression adds little or nothing. Not unlike doping - there is less to gain if you're naturally gifted.

 

[Race Radio]

Adding a supercharger to an engine which is already running 12:1 compression adds little or nothing. Not unlike doping - there is less to gain if you're naturally gifted.

That is not how it works

If you are running a high Vo2 with a low Hct you will get out-sized gains from Oxygen vector doping. There are other elements that contribute to the % gain

 

[thehog]

Adding a supercharger to an engine which is already running 12:1 compression adds little or nothing. Not unlike doping - there is less to gain if you're naturally gifted.

I tend to agree. If Vaughters is right with his 42% hct assessment, then yes.

Julich appears to have backed up this statement on Ullrich.

He's running at 42% and finishing 2nd at the Tour = talent.

What was Lance? 54% saline’d down to 48%?

 

[D-Queued]

Adding a supercharger to an engine which is already running 12:1 compression adds little or nothing. Not unlike doping - there is less to gain if you're naturally gifted.

Sorry, I had thought that Ullrich ran a high displacement engine under heavy load and not some silly four-banger popping for a sprint.

Dave.

 

[Le breton]

1. Marco Pantani _______ ITA | 36:50 | 1995
_ 2. Marco Pantani _______ ITA | 36:55 | 1997
_ 3. Marco Pantani _______ ITA | 37:15 | 1994
_ 4. Lance Armstrong _____ USA | 37:36 | 2004
_ 5. Jan Ullrich _________ GER | 37:42 | 1997
_ 6. Lance Armstrong _____ USA | 38:05 | 2001

_13. Jan Ullrich _________ GER | 38:40 | 2004
_
_53. Jan Ullrich _________ GER | 40:04 | 2001

It seems reasonable to estimate that to climb Alpe d'Huez under ideal conditions, like a TT with no wind, in 37:36 you need at least a VO2 max of 94 ml/mn.kg (my estimate, Vaughters' estimate and he should know, anybody else?). Probably a wee bit more if you have a headwind in the last few km and lose, say, 30-40s because of it (2004).

Then 38:40 corresponds to > 91/92 ml/mn.kg.
Believable for the best cyclist in the world, even at 42% Hct, just barely, but believable.

40:04 in 2001 after a particularly hard stage seems somewhat harder to believe for a clean cyclist, even the best in the world.

 

[sittingbison]

...40:04 in 2001 after a particularly hard stage seems somewhat harder to believe for a clean cyclist, even the best in the world.

Wasn't 2001 the year or "The Look"?

Completely demoralised, Jan subsequently lost 2 minutes to Lance

 

[thehog]

I'm not preoccupied with equal... equal does not exist in sport. Competition... of any kind, exist solely for the express purpose of being the most accurate measurement of the inequality among those participating. It is the answer to the question you're asking whenever you show up on the starting line.

The silliness of all this is everyone had different objectives. Not every rider was trying to win. Many tailored their programs for one race or certain stages. If you planned to get in the break that day then you’d microdose. If the health inspectors (vampires) didn’t come that morning you saw it as a chance to charge and get in the break. If you won you’d saline drip it before the test you dilute it with water and magic dust . If you weren’t riding as GT or classics then you could charge almost at free will.

Of course the bigger name riders had the best programs. They'd already earned that privilege . But it wasn’t like Ullrich had some unfair advantage over a Pro-Conti rider. I mean Sheesh, who are we kidding here? The pecking order was already well established.

I mean Manzano was transfusing and he wasn’t winning GTs . He was just competing trying to get into a break and protect Heras.

Transfusions, EPO, cows blood, dog vitamins were all there. The UCI fostered it and allowed it to continue.

Maybe some of the staff and management feel guilty about what transpired? I'm not sure.

 

[mewmewmew13]

I remember Jan saying that it really didn't bother him all that much to get second...
he had a much easier disposition and outlook than wonderboy.

Not sure Ulle was really demoralized. He did fine and was happy.
pretty sure it was shown that he had extreme amounts of talent unlike Armstrong and his jet fueled carcass

 

[darwin553]

I remember Jan saying that it really didn't bother him all that much to get second...
he had a much easier disposition and outlook than wonderboy.

I wouldn't be surprised if Lance gave him a cut of his TdF winnings over the years...just like what happened when Lance was on Team Motorola and gave a percentage of his winnings to opposing riders to discourage them to win on his way to that million dollar windfall having won those 3 big American races

 

[thehog]

I wouldn't be surprised if Lance gave him a cut of his TdF winnings over the years...just like what happened when Lance was on Team Motorola and gave a percentage of his winnings to opposing riders to discourage them to win on his way to that million dollar windfall having won those 3 big American races

I think that money went to the UCI.

A safer bet for winning.

Jan clearly didn't make his payment. The UCI chased him through to the end through CAS.

Charming.

 

[meat puppet]

1. Marco Pantani _______ ITA | 36:50 | 1995
_ 2. Marco Pantani _______ ITA | 36:55 | 1997
_ 3. Marco Pantani _______ ITA | 37:15 | 1994
_ 4. Lance Armstrong _____ USA | 37:36 | 2004
_ 5. Jan Ullrich _________ GER | 37:42 | 1997
_ 6. Lance Armstrong _____ USA | 38:05 | 2001

_13. Jan Ullrich _________ GER | 38:40 | 2004
_
_53. Jan Ullrich _________ GER | 40:04 | 2001

It seems reasonable to estimate that to climb Alpe d'Huez under ideal conditions, like a TT with no wind, in 37:36 you need at least a VO2 max of 94 ml/mn.kg (my estimate, Vaughters' estimate and he should know, anybody else?). Probably a wee bit more if you have a headwind in the last few km and lose, say, 30-40s because of it (2004).

Then 38:40 corresponds to > 91/92 ml/mn.kg.
Believable for the best cyclist in the world, even at 42% Hct, just barely, but believable.

40:04 in 2001 after a particularly hard stage seems somewhat harder to believe for a clean cyclist, even the best in the world.

interesting, thanks! how do you estimate them?

not an expert here, but IMHO the implied VO2maxes might seem rather low, here. even with the qualifier "at least". compare this with veloclinic who estimated that the vuelta performances implied 90-ish vo2maxes, this year. I bet the performances behind the historic best times of ADH are a level or three above that.

http://veloclinic.tumblr.com/post/61370446672/physiology-analysis-2013-vuelta-overall

ie. ulle's cleanlines hard to believe, just as you wrote.

 

[ChrisE]

I remember Jan saying that it really didn't bother him all that much to get second...
he had a much easier disposition and outlook than wonderboy.

Not sure Ulle was really demoralized. He did fine and was happy.
pretty sure it was shown that he had extreme amounts of talent unlike Armstrong and his jet fueled carcass

Right. I seem to remember LA not taking EPO until 95 or so. Why don't you look up his palmares prior to that?

And, don't go the GT route. Nobody has ever seen JU clean in a GT.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Right. I seem to remember LA not taking EPO until 95 or so. Why don't you look up his palmares prior to that?

And, don't go the GT route. Nobody has ever seen JU clean in a GT.

You should check his Vuelta 1995, I believe, results then, its a blast.

Even your 'hero' was not that bad 'cleanish'. With the body of a linebacker that is.

 

[kingjr]

Right. I seem to remember LA not taking EPO until 95 or so. Why don't you look up his palmares prior to that?

And, don't go the GT route. Nobody has ever seen JU clean in a GT.

Small correction. Nobody has ever seen Ullrich do anything worth taking note of in a GT when he was (perhaps) riding clean.

 

[ChrisE]

Small correction. Nobody has ever seen Ullrich do anything worth taking note of in a GT when he was (perhaps) riding clean.

It all spins around in circles about how talented anybody ever was due to PED's skewing the landscape. Saying rider X was more talented than rider Y or whatever is a stupid argument when there is no way of knowing because the baseline is not clean and we do not know what anybody was on at one time.