Jan Ullrich

[mewmewmew13]

As far as I can see nobody is 'lying' here. Knock that on head and don't get into a tit for tat guys.

Thanks fm...

 

[Neworld]

I tend to agree. If Vaughters is right with his 42% hct assessment, then yes.

Julich appears to have backed up this statement on Ullrich.

He's running at 42% and finishing 2nd at the Tour = talent.

What was Lance? 54% saline’d down to 48%?

there are some posters placing significant emphysis on :
1. baseline HCT relative to potential super-responsiveness.
2. absolute use of BB's
3. crude explanations of Jan's comments

Here are some questions for them:
1 What GT rider was not a superresponder? Links please.
2 Are there grades of super-responsiveness and is that relative to HCT alone, or low HCT and VO2Max or other variables? Research data please.
3. Where is the research that everyone responds to autologous BB similarly and who responds more or less? Is it influenced by HCT, V02Max, body weight?
4. What GT rider from 2000 onward did or did not use BB?

To just say Jan was a super-responder without stating which of his competitors were or were not similarly endowed (if that is even totally true) is biased. We're talking about similar cheats here, not dom's right, it is tacit that not all GT riders have similar roles, ergo: there is no need for all riders to dope similarly.

Having said that, watching the Postal/ Disco and Sky climbing trains sure correlates well with big team budgets and increases the odds of 'lifting' the sole GT leaders into a successful position.

Lastly, I don't agree with everything Jan has said recently (especially when he recently obliquely protected Lancey in an interview) but I would 'think' that when he said I used what everyone else had access too, he meant other similarly GT leader riders. Not the Danny Pates' of the pack.

Anyway, it seems more likely that Jan used dope off and on, maximally some years and less other years. This is direct contradiction to some riders who were maxed most of the time.

NW

 

[Samson777]

To just say Jan was a super-responder without stating which of his competitors were or were not similarly endowed

NW

You had quite some questions, hope you don't mind I ask one:
If Der Jan was not a super responder, don't you think it is crazy that he was 2 in his first ever tour? His medical competition taken into consideration.
If that was not due to super responding, but "talent". He truly was the "greatest talent of the century".

 

[Neworld]

You had quite some questions, hope you don't mind I ask one:
If Der Jan was not a super responder, don't you think it is crazy that he was 2 in his first ever tour? His medical competition taken into consideration.
If that was not due to super responding, but "talent". He truly was the "greatest talent of the century".

You're proving my point...sort of.

Maybe he was an average responder with innate genetic gifts.
Maybe he was a low responder with ...
Maybe he was a super-responder with genetic gifts, and that combination was still better than other super-responders with less.
Maybe he was a SR who maxed out on BBs, but minimal EPO. RaceR seems to know his exact doping regime but doesn't share the exact details.

I don't know. But, it seems most logically that when Jan doped, he doped like the other 10 top GT dopers. Some would believe that he doped and the lower side of the other top 10 but I am not sure. Clearly never had the a whole team of maxed out dopers like PS/Disco did. Some past arguments belive that around 2001 he dope significantly less.

 

[Merckx index]

I’ve been reading the book The Sports Gene. The author argues that there are two main kinds of genetic influence on athletic ability. One is innate talent, which, depending on the sport, might be manifested in body shape, musculature, VO2 max, visual acuity, etc. The other appears in the athlete’s ability to improve from training. Studies involving several different sports (including one measuring VO2 max) indicate that some individuals are high responders to training, others respond much less to the exact same training program, and some not at all. So there are some individuals who show unusual talent before any training, but don’t improve much as a result of training; and conversely, there are others who exhibit no particular talent prior to training, but whose performance takes off when they begin a training program.

Most likely, elite athletes, including the best GT riders, are gifted in both respects. But it could be that Ulle was an unusually high responder to training, so that in the absence of training his performances were relatively mundane, whereas following training he improved far faster and to a much greater extent than others following the same program.

Of course, doping has to be taken into account, too. But the point is, we don’t know enough about the interaction of innate talent, innate ability to improve upon training, and innate response to doping to tease out all these factors for any particular athlete. Only recently have scientists begun making measurements in very young individuals that can detect the presence of extraordinary levels of innate talent, pre-training. In most cases, exceptional talent is not recognized until the athlete actually begins winning competitions, at which point the other factors may also be involved.

 

[IndianCyclist]

If one has talent, it is easy to get to top level at a young age eg. Merckx, Hinault, Lemond, Fignon, Ullrich, Contador, Schleck. These also typically get to top level with little training. Others have to ride for years to get to that level and keep training vigorously for months to sustain that level eg. LA, Froome, Basso, Sastre, Cadel etc.

 

[proffate]

If one has talent, it is easy to get to top level at a young age eg. Merckx, Hinault, Lemond, Fignon, Ullrich, Contador, Schleck. These also typically get to top level with little training. Others have to ride for years to get to that level and keep training vigorously for months to sustain that level eg. LA, Froome, Basso, Sastre, Cadel etc.

I think you mean "innate talent" rather than "training talent". But Merckx was famous for the simplicity of his coaching advice: "ride lots". So how do you know how much he or any of these guys leaned on training response as opposed to natural base level? Your argument is circular: if they got to the top of GTs early, they're talented, and talent is what allowed them to get to the top of GTs early.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

I’ve been reading the book The Sports Gene. The author argues that there are two main kinds of genetic influence on athletic ability. One is innate talent, which, depending on the sport, might be manifested in body shape, musculature, VO2 max, visual acuity, etc. The other appears in the athlete’s ability to improve from training. Studies involving several different sports (including one measuring VO2 max) indicate that some individuals are high responders to training, others respond much less to the exact same training program, and some not at all. So there are some individuals who show unusual talent before any training, but don’t improve much as a result of training; and conversely, there are others who exhibit no particular talent prior to training, but whose performance takes off when they begin a training program.

Most likely, elite athletes, including the best GT riders, are gifted in both respects. But it could be that Ulle was an unusually high responder to training, so that in the absence of training his performances were relatively mundane, whereas following training he improved far faster and to a much greater extent than others following the same program.

Of course, doping has to be taken into account, too. But the point is, we don’t know enough about the interaction of innate talent, innate ability to improve upon training, and innate response to doping to tease out all these factors for any particular athlete. Only recently have scientists begun making measurements in very young individuals that can detect the presence of extraordinary levels of innate talent, pre-training. In most cases, exceptional talent is not recognized until the athlete actually begins winning competitions, at which point the other factors may also be involved.

Very interesting. I also respond to training very well. I smoke a bag of tobacca [shag here in Holland] per two days and after one ride on my bike, a hard one, I seem to be opening my lungs. Subsequently I have no real problems to get to my level of riding of fifteen years ago. Must be genetics.

But, what do you make of this:

* 11/02/2000 - 19/02/2000
Vodacom Rapport Toer
Endstand in der Gesamtwertung: 1. Steinhauser (Scheidegg) 26:08: 50 h, 2. Elli (Italien) 1:45 min zurück, 3. Ordowski (Weiden) 3:52, 4. Michaelsen 4:04, 5. Hondo 5:35, 6. White (Südafrika) 6:41, ... 10. Wegmann (Münster) 8:15,
32. Ullrich (Merdingen) 33:00

* 01-03-2000 - 05-03-2000
Vuelta Ciclista a Murcia
1. David CANADA (Esp) en 18h09'31"
93. Jan Ullrich (All) à 50'02"

* 8/03/2000 - 15/03/2000
Tirreno - Adriatico
5. Etappe, Einzelzeitfahren (26,5 km): 1. Olano (Spanien) 31:36 min; 2. Hruska (Tschechien) 9 s zurück; 2. Dominguez (Spanien) 28
30 Ullrich (All) 2:07
Gesamtwertung: 1. Olano 19:26:28 h; 2. Hruska 9 s zurück; 3. Dominguez 18 9. Voigt (Berlin) 1:11; 149. Ullrich 28:16

Ullrich doesnt start stage 8

* DNS Circuit Cycliste Sarthe 04-04-2000 - 07-04-2000 due to a cold

* DNS Vuelta Ciclista a Aragón 12-04-2000 - 16-04-2000

* 16-05-2000 - 21-05-2000
GP du Midi-Libre
Stage 4 : Laguiole - Laguiole I.T.T. (26 km)
1 Christophe Moreau (Fra) Festina-Lotus 37.16 (42.2 km/h)
2 Jonathan Vaughters (USA) Crédit Agricole 0.35
3 Unai Extebarria (Ven) Euskaltel-Euskadi 0.38
4 Steffen Kjaergaard (Nor) Us Postal Service 0.46
64 Paolo Tiralongo (Ita) Fassa Bortolo 3.18
66 Jan Ullrich (Ger) Team Deutsche Telekom-Ard 3.18

Stage 5 : Saint Geniez d'Olt - L'Esperou (185 km) Mountainstage
1 Gorazd Stangelj (Slo) Liquigas-Pata 4.41.51 (37.467 km/h)
3 David Moncoutie (Fra) Cofidis
54 Koen Deschuyter (Bel) Collstrop-De Federale Verzekeringen 29.52
55 Bert Scheirlinckx (Bel) Collstrop 31.47
68 Jan Ullrich (Ger) Team Deutsche Telekom-Ard same time

Stage 6 : Le Vigan - Sète (157 km)
1 Rodolfo Massi (Ita) Cantina Tollo 3.50.03
84 Jonathan Vaughters (USA) Crédit Agricole 13.39 oops
DNF Jan Ullrich (Ger) Team Deutsche Telekom-Ard
DNF Jens Heppner (Ger) Team Deutsche Telekom-Ard
DNF Giovanni Lombardi (Ita) Team Deutsche Telekom-Ard
DNF Alexandre Vinokourov (Kaz) Team Deutsche Telekom-Ard [crash]
''The stage honours went to Cantina Tollo's Rodolfo Massi, in one of his best results since the 1998 Tour before the inquisition began. Now cleared of charges, Massi went on the attack in the first few kilometres of the stage, all uphill. At the top of the 600 m high Côte de Mondardier, he had 40 seconds on a chasing group containing Vinokourov, Moreau and four others. Telekom's Jan Ullrich was already in trouble and later abandoned the stage.''
http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/results/2000/may00/midi006.shtml

* 26/05/2000 - 1/06/2000
Deutschland-Tour
29. GER ULLRICH Jan
TT: 1. ESP PLAZA ROMERO David
9. GER ULLRICH Jan TEL 02'33"

* 13/06/2000 - 22/06/2000
Tour de Suisse
Stage 5 : Sierre - Sierre I.T.T. (30 km)
1. LAT BELOHVOSCIKS Raivis
3. GER ULLRICH Jan TEL 16"

Tour de Suisse, General classification
5. GER ULLRICH Jan TEL 02'07"

And so on. Very poor untill Switzerland.

Absolutely crap untill that one race in july. His baseline results are just too low to speak of innate talent. Same goes for the years 1996 till 1999. No responder to training, doping worked too good for Jan to train.

 

[Neworld]

Very interesting. I also respond to training very well. I smoke a bag of tobacca [shag here in Holland] per two days and after one ride on my bike, a hard one, I seem to be opening my lungs. Subsequently I have no real problems to get to my level of riding of fifteen years ago. Must be genetics.

I worry for your long term health mate, you may want to be concerned about your 50's to 70's and not what you can think you can do today.

But, what do you make of this:

Absolutely crap untill that one race in july. His baseline results are just too low to speak of innate talent. Same goes for the years 1996 till 1999. No responder to training, doping worked too good for Jan to train.

Looks like in the year 2000, when there was equal EPO to water, Jan was using a lot less until when he had to compete.

The real questions are:
1. Up until Jun 2000, was Jan competing against an EPO-laden pack while abstaining? That would be impressive.
2. Was he using as much EPO as the rest and performing poorly?
3. Why wouldn't Jan use EPO etc... during those early 2000 months, or was he maxing out and performed poorly?
4. Was he taking EPO as the rest but not trying? Or, trying and failing despite doping? IF the latter, then why did he suddenly shine in July?

Pretty confusing...I would love to hear your explanation other than just stating it is crap.

 

[LaPlagne87]

4. Was he taking EPO as the rest but not trying? Or, trying and failing despite doping? IF the latter, then why did he suddenly shine in July?

.

Was that the year he was really fat for months after the end of the winter??

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

The real questions are:
1. Up until Jun 2000, was Jan competing against an EPO-laden pack while abstaining? That would be impressive.
2. Was he using as much EPO as the rest and performing poorly?
3. Why wouldn't Jan use EPO etc... during those early 2000 months, or was he maxing out and performed poorly?
4. Was he taking EPO as the rest but not trying? Or, trying and failing despite doping? IF the latter, then why did he suddenly shine in July?

Pretty confusing...I would love to hear your explanation other than just stating it is crap.

When you loose 3 minutes - and TT with the likes of Paolo Tiralongo - on Vaughters [riding clean at CA according to himself] in the Midi Libre, I quialify those kinda results as crap.

Take that ITT at the Midi Libre. Jan loses 3 minutes on Moreau, two months later in the Tour he is 2 minutes faster than Moreau. Over twice the distance.
Who were also present at the Midi Libre?
11 David Millar (GBr)Cofidis 1.12
He loses in the ITT at the Tour almost 2 minutes on Moreau.
9 Bobby Julich (USA) Crédit Agricole 1.08
He loses more than 4 minutes on Moreau at the ITT at the Tour, perhaps not trying his best. Perhaps Bobby Doolich was indeed clean at Credit Agricole and had the third week collapse.
23 David Moncoutie (Fra) Cofidis 1.45
He loses about 7 minutes on Moreau at the Tour ITT. No TT'er of course.
16 Alexandre Vinokourov (Kaz) Team Deutsche Telekom-Ard 1.28
Loses six minutes on Moreau at the Tour ITT.
117 Aitor Gonzalez Jimenez (Spa) Kelme-Costa Blanca 6.56
Aitor was not yet at his prime

Is it possible Jan would have lost 6 minutes at that Midi Libre ITT if the distance was 59K instead of the 26K it was? Of course that is speculating but is it impossible? That would mean Jan got an 8 minute advantage [over Moreau] when juicing?

To me it looks like he started with his doping regime in prep for just that one event in july, and, responded pretty well to it. And I am pretty sure Moreau did the same, he just juiced earlier in the season, I think, according to the new forum rules...

 

[Neworld]

Take that ITT at the Midi Libre. Jan loses 3 minutes on Moreau, two months later in the Tour he is 2 minutes faster than Moreau.

To me it looks like he started with his doping regime in prep for just that one event in july, and, responded pretty well to it. And I am pretty sure Moreau did the same, he just juiced earlier in the season, I think, according to the new forum rules...

With that logic, you agree that Jan rode the Midi Libre (May) WITHOUT EPO, against an EPO charged group and earned the results above?

Humm, not sure that supports your argument.

And, why wouldnt' Jan use EPO then or earlier in the year. It is well documented that EPO allows you to train longer, harder and even attain better O2 Vector metrics. That would not make sense either.

 

[shalgo]

Keep in mind that the TT at the 2000 Midi Libre included a 15-km climb. Thus Vaughters finishing second and Boardman finishing 43rd.

http://www.nytimes.com/2000/05/22/sports/22iht-bike.2.t_4.html

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

With that logic, you agree that Jan rode the Midi Libre (May) WITHOUT EPO, against an EPO charged group and earned the results above?

Humm, not sure that supports your argument.

And, why wouldnt' Jan use EPO then or earlier in the year. It is well documented that EPO allows you to train longer, harder and even attain better O2 Vector metrics. That would not make sense either.

He lost 3 minutes on Vaughters - who was clean at that time - there at the Midi Libre TT, does that say anything to you? At the opening TT of the Tour he suddenly was 50 seconds faster, over 16.5 kilometres. That is a four minute gain, not even mentioning the shorter distance.

To the bold underlined:
it does seem to look that way. And to me he looks like one of the best responders.

 

[Neworld]

He lost 3 minutes on Vaughters - who was clean at that time - there at the Midi Libre TT, does that say anything to you? At the opening TT of the Tour he suddenly was 50 seconds faster, over 16.5 kilometres. That is a four minute gain, not even mentioning the shorter distance.

To the bold underlined:
it does seem to look that way. And to me he looks like one of the best responders.

In terms of the weight of your evidence, trying to make sense of 'why' Jan did so poorly against a clean JV, over a decade ago and justifying it with simply the result is about 2/10.

Maybe Jan was: sick; sick and overweight, still in poor spring shape for a GT racer planning to assault the TdF with EPO etc... Can you really come down as hard as you are based on what JV did and Jan, who are 2 totally types of riders, with different plans that year?

Which brings me to your last comments. As I said, maybe Jan was a good responder...but do you really think that his 'equal' GT competitors were less of responders? unlikely.

And, in the opening TT of the TdF 2000 it was pretty flat...not suited to JV (who is not in the same stratosphere as Jan in any ITT) but clearly suited to the power of Janski. Maybe JV just wanted to save his energy over the Tour knowing full well he had NO chance of placing high and would only be wasting his energy. Again in this debate your evidence is poorly weighted.

NW

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

In terms of the weight of your evidence, trying to make sense of 'why' Jan did so poorly against a clean JV, over a decade ago and justifying it with simply the result is about 2/10.

Maybe Jan was: sick; sick and overweight, still in poor spring shape for a GT racer planning to assault the TdF with EPO etc... Can you really come down as hard as you are based on what JV did and Jan, who are 2 totally types of riders, with different plans that year?

Which brings me to your last comments. As I said, maybe Jan was a good responder...but do you really think that his 'equal' GT competitors were less of responders? unlikely.

And, in the opening TT of the TdF 2000 it was pretty flat...not suited to JV (who is not in the same stratosphere as Jan in any ITT) but clearly suited to the power of Janski. Maybe JV just wanted to save his energy over the Tour knowing full well he had NO chance of placing high and would only be wasting his energy. Again in this debate your evidence is poorly weighted.

NW

If you read back in this topic, notably this post http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showpost.php?p=1213167&postcount=1023

you could notice a clear pattern in Jan's seasons. Perhaps not for Ullrich 'fans', but for people who have no emotional attachement it does work.

I am not judging Ullrich, I just look at his statistics. He doped good for the Tour de Bore, the rest of the season did not interest him very much, apart from 1997 it looks like.

The Vaughters comparison does add up. In 1999 he was doped up and won the Route du Sud, in the FLAT Montauban - Montauban, ITT, 11.1 kms he lost 11 seconds on Moreau, or maybe they found a mountain in Bretagne?
http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/results/1999/jun99/routedusud99.html#1b

Maybe I will do his 2001 season onwards too, I bet it has the same pattern as lets say 1998/1999/2000.

I just think Jan was a 'lazy' doper. If he had done the same as others he would indeed have won more Tour de Bores.

 

[Le breton]

........

The Vaughters comparison does add up. In 1999 he was doped up and won the Route du Sud, in the FLAT Montauban - Montauban, ITT, 11.1 kms he lost 11 seconds on Moreau, or maybe they found a mountain in Bretagne?
http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/results/1999/jun99/routedusud99.html#1b
....
.

There is a Montauban-de-Bretagne very close to Bobet's birthplace (Saint-Méen-le-grand). It's about 30 km from Rennes and I have raced there as well as waited for a lift on the main road, hitchiking my way home

The "de-Bretagne" is needed to distinguish it from the much bigger Montauban located a TT distance North of Toulouse.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

There is a Montauban-de-Bretagne very close to Bobet's birthplace (Saint-Méen-le-grand). It's about 30 km from Rennes and I have raced there as well as waited for a lift on the main road, hitchiking my way home

The "de-Bretagne" is needed to distinguish it from the much bigger Montauban located a TT distance North of Toulouse.

Sorry le breton. I stand corrected.

Route du Sud slash Bretagne. FGL made a blunder

 

[Le breton]

Sorry le breton. I stand corrected.

Route du Sud slash Bretagne. FGL made a blunder

Blunder, come on, no big deal

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Blunder, come on, no big deal

It was pretty stupid, to say the least.

This one is funny though:
http://www.faz.net/aktuell/sport/radsport-jan-ullrich-ich-bin-asthmatiker-121406.html

Jan Ullrich: „Ich bin Asthmatiker“

Medikamente sind gefunden, der öffentliche Aufschrei ist riesengroß, weil der Radstar Kortekoide und Cortison nimmt. Jan Ullrich macht dagegen einen Eindruck, als sei alles eine Bagatelle.

„Ich bin Asthmatiker und brauche gegen meine Beschwerden Sprays und Tabletten, und wenn es schlimm kommt Kortison. Aber das ist alles kein Problem, das steht in meinem Gesundheitspass, nicht nur mein Arzt, auch der des Weltverbandes weiß Bescheid. Ich lasse mich in meiner Vorbereitung auf die Tour de France nicht beirren und mir mein großes Ziel nicht vermiesen.“

More funny quotes there but I will let others decide on that.
http://www.berliner-zeitung.de/archiv/tour-der-asthmatiker,10810590,9917550.html

In diesem Jahr kommt ein neues Modewort hinzu. Denn mittlerweile weiß man, dass eine signifikant hohe Anzahl von Sportlern asthmakrank ist. Jedenfalls fanden sich Ärzte, die ein entsprechendes Attest ausstellten. In manchen Disziplinen liegt die Asthma-Quote bei 70 bis 80 Prozent. Zahlen, die Dopingfahndern höchst unglaubwürdig vorkommen. Zum Vergleich: Im bundesdeutschen Durchschnitt ist nur jeder Fünfundzwanzigste Asthmatiker.

I do like statistics.

On the 2001 season of Jan, did he actually start at Rund um Koln that year? Perhaps Neworld has info on that?

 

[roundabout]

He started at Murcia.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

He started at Murcia.

Thanks. The German source indeed talked about Rundum Koln as the first German race Jan did in 2001.

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

Cool. Jan signs with Rapha. Now many will scream foul in the clinic.
But why? It should be the right thing for the cynics here. As long as Über-Dopers only serve 4 game bans in US pro leagues, Usain Bolt is free to spit every human with a working brain in the face by earning millions on doped performances, unlucky caught ex-dopers should also earn a little bit of the share...

 

[Gregga]

Rapha had already a video called "Galibier" celebrating Pantani, I'm not so surprised to see Ulle coming in the game. Rapha business model is based on celebrating the past (St Raphaël was a team in the 50's-60's) and doesn't care about who was doping or not.

 

[wirral]

CN retracts the Rapha story.