Jan Ullrich

[blackcat]

I would've thought a 'well structured doping program' needs a big financed team to put it in place. The logistics for implementing that must cost and to keep enablers sweet must cost.

for @Motoman substitute Edita Rumsas.

neutralise for the teamtimetrial, Rumsas beats Beloki for second place in the TdF in 2002 or whenever it was.

Dare say, substitute, Ferrari and USPS docs, and Fassa for Armstrongs support, Rumsas would have pantsed an Armstrong of that era

 

[blackcat]

but I rider who responds well to a doping program is worth much more then a big team bus and 50 gm lighter bike

think it was Roche who said, that you need a bike to go downhill (ergo stability) and not a weightweenies Evil Kinievel bike to go over the niagara falls

 

[VeloFidelis]

My point is very simple. Oxygen vector doping has vast differences in response. Jan, or any other rider, pretending like everyone got the same benefit from EPO or transfusions is just nonsense.

My point is simpler... So What! I don't believe Jan is pretending anything. His point is also simple...everyone doped... end of story. It's a tactical decision, not equal opportunity. Whether your competitors "program" gave him a lesser or greater physiological advantage from baseline is immaterial. He cheated too. In a perfect world of clean athletes, they all still bring a different genetic make up to the starting line... and the best of them are already genetic mutants. Where's the level playing field in that?

This is sport. Sometimes circumstance and fortune favor the underdog... that possibility is why we watch, but it's never fair. It would be boring as hell if it was.

 

[del1962]

My point is simpler... So What! I don't believe Jan is pretending anything. His point is also simple...everyone doped... end of story. It's a tactical decision, not equal opportunity. Whether your competitors "program" gave him a lesser or greater physiological advantage from baseline is immaterial. He cheated too. In a perfect world of clean athletes, they all still bring a different genetic make up to the starting line... and the best of them are already genetic mutants. Where's the level playing field in that?

This is sport. Sometimes circumstance and fortune favor the underdog... that possibility is why we watch, but it's never fair. It would be boring as hell if it was.

Not everyone doped. this is where Ullrich is self serving.

 

[VeloFidelis]

Not everyone doped. this is where Ullrich is self serving.

Really?... Who didn't?

There are high levels of certitude here in the Clinic as to who has. There must be equal levels of conviction for who hasn't. Besides Bassons whose career path speaks to the truth, I would like to know of another truly clean Pro.

 

[del1962]

Really?... Who didn't?

I can't give names other than Bassons for now, but to assume that everyone doped is wrong.

 

[Race Radio]

My point is simpler... So What! I don't believe Jan is pretending anything. His point is also simple...everyone doped... end of story. It's a tactical decision, not equal opportunity. Whether your competitors "program" gave him a lesser or greater physiological advantage from baseline is immaterial. He cheated too. In a perfect world of clean athletes, they all still bring a different genetic make up to the starting line... and the best of them are already genetic mutants. Where's the level playing field in that?

This is sport. Sometimes circumstance and fortune favor the underdog... that possibility is why we watch, but it's never fair. It would be boring as hell if it was.

Do you really think everyone did transfusions? Really?

How is it "equal" if one riders gets 5 extra watts and another gets 50? What math makes that equal?

 

[aphronesis]

Do you really think everyone did transfusions? Really?

How is it "equal" if one riders gets 5 extra watts and another gets 50? What math makes that equal?

Can you highlight the part of the post you're quoting that states it's equal? Thanks.

 

[sniper]

Do you really think everyone did transfusions? Really?

How is it "equal" if one riders gets 5 extra watts and another gets 50? What math makes that equal?

I agree with you basically, but there is still some sense in Ulrich's claim that he doped to level the playing field, at least if we limit our view to the select group of GT contenders of that time. If Ulrich wanted to be competitive for a GC, he had to dope. That much seems true.
Of course at large, from the perspective of the peloton as a whole, i fully agree there was no such thing as a level playing field.

 

[Race Radio]

I agree with you basically, but there is still some sense in Ulrich's claim that he doped to level the playing field, at least if we limit our view to the select group of GT contenders of that time. If Ulrich wanted to be competitive for a GC, he had to dope. That much seems true.
Of course at large, from the perspective of the peloton as a whole, i fully agree there was no such thing as a level playing field.

The group, especially in the 2000's, is selective as it only contains

Riders who were willing and able to partake in a transfusion program
Riders who respond significantly to such a program

Hardly equal. I can understand what would motivate Jan, and others, to pretend this is the case but it is not the case

 

[Ferminal]

Do you think he could have podiumed in that era without transfusions?

He wanted to win, in the context he didn't have much choice.

 

[thehog]

I can't give names other than Bassons for now, but to assume that everyone doped is wrong.

Ullrich wasn't at the 1999 Tour with Bassons. So Ullrich's wasn't cheating Bassons.

It wasn't doping that made Bassons leave the sport it was bullying.

Bullying not just by Armstrong but also his own teammates at FDJ.

Thats one of the sad parts of e sport and the way the UCI allowed doping to proliferate. Guys like Bassons fall through the cracks.

Jan was in the same position. Dope or fall through the cracks.

It fact he did fall through the cracks on a number of occasions. It clear he was uncomfortable with an Armstrong styled program.

 

[Race Radio]

Do you think he could have podiumed in that era without transfusions?

He wanted to win, in the context he didn't have much choice.

True, but it is hardly equal if the majority of riders did not do transfusions.

 

[thehog]

Do you think he could have podiumed in that era without transfusions?

He wanted to win, in the context he didn't have much choice.

There was an immense amount of pressure to perform.

And he wasn't going to be serving his pay masters if he didn't. Once the EPO test came in the UCI effectively asked the riders to step across the blood transfusions. Which became the new vogue drug of choice.

Ullrich did create his own prison but those were the times. Ullrich was so big in Germany. Everyone wanted him to beat the Anerican.

During that I think Jan would feel better walking a way. But Telekom needed him and pressured him greatly. As they did with all their riders.

If we're looking for a scapegoat in all of this I'd be pointing more towards the sponsors and the UCI.

Telekom got away with all of this without any any back marks.

It's unfortunate that the riders always get blamed.

Blaming Ullrich for the downfall of T-Mobile is really just a load of BS. T-Mobile did that all on their own.

Dietz told German TV on Monday that two doctors from Freiburg University had personally given him shots of erythropoietin (EPO) in 1995. The doctors, Lothar Heinrich and Andreas Schmid, were suspended from their jobs in Freiburg on Tuesday.

...

Dietz said the Telekom doctors had pressured him to try the new drug, which at the time wasn't on the list of tested substances. "(We were told) if we wanted to ride in the front ranks, then we'd probably have to try this new stuff," he said.

Deutsche Telekom -- which now fields the team under its international brand, T-Mobile -- will wait for the results of an investigation before making any decision on its future sponsorship of the team. If Telekom did pull out of cycling, said Stephan Althoff, the team's sponsorship boss, it would not be an admission of guilt. He told the Süddeutsche Zeitung it was just necessary for the sport to "look clean."

But team spokesman Christian Frommert said T-Mobile was showing no signs of pulling sponsorship. He said the corporation had recently extended its contract until 2010.

http://www.spiegel.de/international...stematic-doping-in-telekom-team-a-484515.html

 

[VeloFidelis]

How is it "equal" if one riders gets 5 extra watts and another gets 50? What math makes that equal?

Nothing! That is exactly my point.

 

[blackcat]

Nothing! That is exactly my point.

its jan's definition which is differing with Race Radio's definition. Jan's definition, is if everyone has an opportunity to dope, this is an even playing field. reductive.

Race Radio has a more meta pov, and interprets the calibre and effect of the doping.

And it also helps, the quote from Udo Bolts.

And there is the phenomenon, in the words of Baden Cooke, "may not be able to pull skin off custard next season".

athletes go from zero to hero. athletes go from hero to zero. athletes who are nearing the end of their contract, put in a final season of results. Kloden infamous here.

and other sports, athletes dial in their form to the enth degree on every olympic year, which is over and above a renewed vigour, work ethic and determination.

and home town olympics, just bet large on spain in barcelona in 1988. home town olympics, always bring out the worst in home town doping. or the best in doping if that is your metric.

 

[Race Radio]

Nothing! That is exactly my point.

Again, comparing the large variance in response to doping to the having a bigger bus or a 50 gm lighter bike is absurd. It is not an equal comparison.

 

[thehog]

athletes go from zero to hero. athletes go from hero to zero. athletes who are nearing the end of their contract, put in a final season of results. Kloden infamous here.

and other sports, athletes dial in their form to the enth degree on every olympic year, which is over and above a renewed vigour, work ethic and determination.

and home town olympics, just bet large on spain in barcelona in 1988. home town olympics, always bring out the worst in home town doping. or the best in doping if that is your metric.

Some of this is true, I think in Jan's case not and certainly for the era.

Doping was free reign. EPO wasn't really tested until in late 2001 and even then around 2003 until the Gen2 test came in.

You can't pick Jan out and say - "look at him". The entire era was soaked with dope and the UCI aided and abetted it.

Now, in regards to guys coming from no where, sure that happened. It's worse today because you have doped guys beating clean guys and the percentage increase is much greater.

Make no mistake Jan was winning well before the EPO and transfusion eras. It's not like he was a Froome, or a Soler or a Santa. He's the real deal.

Sure he doped but what choice did he have at 19 being hired by Telekom?

Put yourself at 19, whatchya gonna do?

Sponsors and teams need to shoulder some of this blame. Forever blaming the riders not realising the consequence of their actions. Many turned a blind eye instead of helping and now their ones pointing fingers.

This quote comes to mind:

"Godefroot organized and financed the doping system."

And Aldag.

 

[Netserk]

Do you really think everyone did transfusions? Really?

How is it "equal" if one riders gets 5 extra watts and another gets 50? What math makes that equal?

As I understand it VF's point is quite simple.

It's not equal. It never was. It never will be.

With or without dope.

EDIT:

I don't think you'll find anybody saying that it is equally unequal with or without dope, but only that it's unequal in both circumstances.

 

[Race Radio]

As I understand it VF's point is quite simple.

It's not equal. It never was. It never will be.

With or without dope.

My point is equally simple. Riders have won with weak teams, substandard equipment, tiny budgets etc. Comparing these small differences to the significant differences in response from Oxygen vector doping is not equal.....not even close

 

[blackcat]

As I understand it VF's point is quite simple.

It's not equal. It never was. It never will be.

With or without dope.

EDIT:

I don't think you'll find anybody saying that it is equally unequal with or without dope, but only that it's unequal in both circumstances.

and irony was, cancer made armstrong a hundred million dollars, and too big to fail. think AIG and Goldman Sachs.

As Bob Stapleton said, the tdf was the apotheosis of Armstrong. only was going to be topped off by Sydney Olympics, thanks eki.

And Armstrong went on to sell cancer to Letterman, Jay Leno, and Katie Couric

 

[Netserk]

My point is equally simple. Riders have won with weak teams, substandard equipment, tiny budgets etc. Comparing these small differences to the significant differences in response from Oxygen vector doping is not equal.....not even close

And I don't think anybody thinks that. Yes dope made it (much) more unequal, but the point is that it wasn't equal to begin with.

 

[Race Radio]

And I don't think anybody thinks that. Yes dope made it (much) more unequal, but the point is that it wasn't equal to begin with.

Jan, Lance, and many other riders are pretending it was equal. It was not.

My point is clear. The amount of variance in response to oxygen vector doping is significantly more then the effect of team budget it is not an equal or valid comparison, especially in GT's. Saying that the sport was always unequal and doping is just a continuation of that falsely minimizes the impact of doping on the sport.

 

[webvan]

All this is very interesting, but there is no evidence, anywhere, that Ullrich was a 10x responder to EPO compared to his main competitors, just in RR's and Udo Bolt's mind it seems...If anything, everything points to the fact that he was a true champion before getting on EPO, but we've been over all that before

 

[Race Radio]

RR sounds like a broken record with his anti-Ullrich crusade that is frankly of zilch interest at this point...

Hardly anti Ullrich, I like the guy......but that does not mean I should ignore reality.

Jan is far from the only former doper who is trying to use the level playing field defense. Pointing out the absurdity of their position is not a crusade, just common sense