Jan Ullrich

[Bavarianrider]

ahh yes you mean big men like very early TDF winners Maurice Garin (1.62m/60kg) or Charly Gaul(1.73m/64kg)? or maybe you mean massive pre-war TDF winners like Jean Robic(1.61m/60kg) or Gino Bartali (1.7m)?

Well 60kg on 1.62m is quiet a heavy ratio. Of course back then peole in general were like more then 10cm smaller in average.

 

[AngusW]

ahh yes you mean big men like very early TDF winners Maurice Garin (1.62m/60kg) or Charly Gaul(1.73m/64kg)? or maybe you mean massive pre-war TDF winners like Jean Robic(1.61m/60kg) or Gino Bartali (1.7m)?

Charly Gaul won in 1958 - not one of the very early Tours. Jean Robic won in 1947, not pre-war.

 

[Der_Gestreifte]

BTW, der Ulle is back to racing!

Well ok, "racing".

He´ll be TTTing some 40 km at the "Deutschland Grand Prix" (great name for an amateur race, innit?).

 

[mad black]

He most defentely rode the Tours in 2000/2001 without blood manipulation. Livingston confirmed it for example.
Come on equally juiced Lance would have had nothing on Ullrich. I think 99,9%of people in cycling would agree on that.

Ignorance is bliss! That is a very bold statement. I for one beg to differ. You should really be careful what assertions you make without any proof whatsoever. "Most definitely" is pretty strong language for something you can only assume. And Livingston didn't confirm anything, he got merely quoted as having said so by JV in a messanger conversation without reputable or traceable origin.

Oh, and by the way 67.4% of statistics are made up on the spot - your's is a prime example!

 

[mad black]

Well ok, "racing".

He´ll be TTTing some 40 km at the "Deutschland Grand Prix" (great name for an amateur race, innit?).

Wow! How'd you find out about that? I'm wandering if he's featured in the licensed or unlicensed category?!

But hey good on him although I believe he'd better stay away from any competition in Germany. It'll be a field day for the media!!!

 

[Zweistein]

In the early years of the Tour, cyclists were rather big and strong men. So certainly there were many winners bigger and taller then him. Actually the assumption that GT winners have to be as super light as they are today is rather new.

That isn't true at all. Big Mig, Lance, and Jan are all big by the average. Any guy that was around 150+ lbs was going to lose time to the elite climbers. Merckx, Antequil, and Big Mig was going to pace on the climbing stages and hope they didn't lose too much. Merckx didn't ride the 73 Tour because Ocana was destroying him in the mountains, 8 minutes in one stage in the 71 tour. Hinault, Lemond, Zootemelk were all around 130-140 lbs. Pantani rode at around 120-125 lbs. Lance and Jan were around 160-165 lbs and Big Mig was around 175lbs. I think Merckx was around 160 lbs as well. 30 years ago you wouldn't find big guys like Jan and Lance sticking it to everyone on a mountain stage. They could win the overall but not in the mountains.

 

[Bavarianrider]

That isn't true at all. Big Mig, Lance, and Jan are all big by the average. Any guy that was around 150+ lbs was going to lose time to the elite climbers. Merckx, Antequil, and Big Mig was going to pace on the climbing stages and hope they didn't lose too much. Merckx didn't ride the 73 Tour because Ocana was destroying him in the mountains, 8 minutes in one stage in the 71 tour. Hinault, Lemond, Zootemelk were all around 130-140 lbs. Pantani rode at around 120-125 lbs. Lance and Jan were around 160-165 lbs and Big Mig was around 175lbs. I think Merckx was around 160 lbs as well. 30 years ago you wouldn't find big guys like Jan and Lance sticking it to everyone on a mountain stage. They could win the overall but not in the mountains.

Well it was about big guys who won it
However again, you can't just compare the heights and weights for the riders over the decades, as people in general got bigger.
It's a fact that those super skin riders that you see today weren't the norm back in the days.
In the recent 15 years average weights of GT top 10 finisher have also gone down by a few kilos. No other then Dr. Michelle Ferrari wrote a bout it. I think it must still be somwhere on his homepage. TT and mountain kilometres are simply so unbaalnced these days that riders are forced to boildown like this. Not a good development at all.

 

[Bavarianrider]

Wow! How'd you find out about that? I'm wandering if he's featured in the licensed or unlicensed category?!

But hey good on him although I believe he'd better stay away from any competition in Germany. It'll be a field day for the media!!!

It's a "Jedermann "Race which means a race for "everybody". I think as Ullrich doesn't have a liscence he'll race in the unlicensed cateogory. At least i guess so.
Ullrich will team up with former Team Mate Tobias Steinhauser and two other random guys. One of them a cycling journalist. As i don't think these two guys are capable to stay in the slip stream when Ulle and Steinhauser get the big gears going, i don't think we can expect much of a great time of team Ulle frankly spoken. Although Jan his back on his bike a lot and i bet he'd win the individual competition easily.

 

[Zigster]

In the early years of the Tour, cyclists were rather big and strong men. So certainly there were many winners bigger and taller then him.

again, name some

 

[Bavarianrider]

again, name some

Francois Faber for example, 1.86m 91 Kilos

 

[Parrulo]

Francois Faber for example, 1.86m 91 Kilos

some not 1.

also the very early tours weren't as mountainous iirc

 

[NedBraden]

It's always interesting to see threads about big name riders who were at the top of their game during the same time as Festina/Riis/Armstrong time period because it's interesting to see the hypocrisy. Nobody gets called a "fanboy" people make claims with no proof and aren't attacked and insulted, anything that could possibly be construed as saying the rider was not a doper or not that big of a doper is embraced, etc.

(Please note this is not any sort o defense of Armstrong, simply pointing out the hypocrisy that goes on in this forum. Another example being in the Ricco thread)

 

[Zweistein]

Well it was about big guys who won it
However again, you can't just compare the heights and weights for the riders over the decades, as people in general got bigger.
It's a fact that those super skin riders that you see today weren't the norm back in the days.
In the recent 15 years average weights of GT top 10 finisher have also gone down by a few kilos. No other then Dr. Michelle Ferrari wrote a bout it. I think it must still be somwhere on his homepage. TT and mountain kilometres are simply so unbaalnced these days that riders are forced to boildown like this. Not a good development at all.

The super skinny riders did exist back in the day. No, the average weight of the top GT finishers hasn't gone down. You are taking numbers from Ferrari, who has strong motive to say this to give justification as to why mountain times have dropped considerably in the last 20 years. There is more of a fixation on weight nowdays with technology but even Merckx would drillout out his bike to reduce its weight. You say these things but you use a shady source and can only present one or two examples. I can rattle off two dozen easy that fit the stereotype of a GC rider being around 135-140 lbs.

 

[Bavarianrider]

The super skinny riders did exist back in the day. No, the average weight of the top GT finishers hasn't gone down. You are taking numbers from Ferrari, who has strong motive to say this to give justification as to why mountain times have dropped considerably in the last 20 years. There is more of a fixation on weight nowdays with technology but even Merckx would drillout out his bike to reduce its weight. You say these things but you use a shady source and can only present one or two examples. I can rattle off two dozen easy that fit the stereotype of a GC rider being around 135-140 lbs.

It's logical that the average weight of top 10 finishers has gone down when there are less TTs andmountains get more and more important.

 

[AngusW]

That isn't true at all. Big Mig, Lance, and Jan are all big by the average. Any guy that was around 150+ lbs was going to lose time to the elite climbers. Merckx, Antequil, and Big Mig was going to pace on the climbing stages and hope they didn't lose too much. Merckx didn't ride the 73 Tour because Ocana was destroying him in the mountains, 8 minutes in one stage in the 71 tour. Hinault, Lemond, Zootemelk were all around 130-140 lbs. Pantani rode at around 120-125 lbs. Lance and Jan were around 160-165 lbs and Big Mig was around 175lbs. I think Merckx was around 160 lbs as well. 30 years ago you wouldn't find big guys like Jan and Lance sticking it to everyone on a mountain stage. They could win the overall but not in the mountains.

I agree with you that Ocana was destroying Merckx in the mountains of the '71 tour, up until the Pyrenees at least, when Merckx attacked Ocana at every opportunity.

I'm not sure that the reason he didn't ride the '73 Tour was because of Ocana. Merckx had already beaten Ocana in the '73 Vuelta (allegedly the course played to Merckx's strength) before winning the Giro. So maybe that fact that he'd done two GTs already was a factor in not riding the Tour that year.

I read somewhere that there was a rumour that Merckx was actually paid not to ride the Tour in '73 - after 4 straight Merckx victories in the Tour, the organisers felt it was getting a bit boring. I certainly don't think that Merckx didn't want to take on Ocana in the mountains, given he'd beaten Ocana easily in the '72 tour. However, if you've got a link or reference to that, let us know.

Ocana easily won the '73 Tour ahead of Thevenet (15 minutes?)- who knows what would have happened if Merckx had ridden that Tour?

 

[Zigster]

It's logical that the average weight of top 10 finishers has gone down when there are less TTs and mountains get more and more important.

then wouldn't you agree the height and weight of
Indurain
Riis
Ullrich
is a strange anomaly given that these riders would not historically have been contenders in GTs, which you say are now even more mountainous, and given that you cannot present a post-war pre-epo GC or mtn stage winner hauling that much sheer bone matter

something changed fundamentally to put these guys at least in striking distance of lightweights

i suppose the only question is why Cancellara (1.86m/80kg) can't break through

 

[Zweistein]

I agree with you that Ocana was destroying Merckx in the mountains of the '71 tour, up until the Pyrenees at least, when Merckx attacked Ocana at every opportunity.

I'm not sure that the reason he didn't ride the '73 Tour was because of Ocana. Merckx had already beaten Ocana in the '73 Vuelta (allegedly the course played to Merckx's strength) before winning the Giro. So maybe that fact that he'd done two GTs already was a factor in not riding the Tour that year.

I read somewhere that there was a rumour that Merckx was actually paid not to ride the Tour in '73 - after 4 straight Merckx victories in the Tour, the organisers felt it was getting a bit boring. I certainly don't think that Merckx didn't want to take on Ocana in the mountains, given he'd beaten Ocana easily in the '72 tour. However, if you've got a link or reference to that, let us know.

Ocana easily won the '73 Tour ahead of Thevenet (15 minutes?)- who knows what would have happened if Merckx had ridden that Tour?

If I remember, it took awhile for Ocana to recover from the crash he suffered in the 71 Tour. Merckx went down while attack on a downhill and Ocana crashed into him and then while he was getting up Zootemelk crashed into him and he broke his pelvis. So even though they met at the Tour and the Vuelta in 72, I believe that he may not have been at 100% form. Ocana was something else though. I believe that if he could keep his wheels on the tarmac, he was every bit of a GC rider as Merckx was and maybe more.

 

[issoisso]

If I remember, it took awhile for Ocana to recover from the crash he suffered in the 71 Tour. Merckx went down while attack on a downhill and Ocana crashed into him and then while he was getting up Zootemelk crashed into him and he broke his pelvis. So even though they met at the Tour and the Vuelta in 72, I believe that he may not have been at 100% form. Ocana was something else though. I believe that if he could keep his wheels on the tarmac, he was every bit of a GC rider as Merckx was and maybe more.

71: Ocaña was dominating, even putting almost 9 minutes into Merckx on a single mountain stage. Then he made the dumb mistake of trying to follow Merckx down a difficult descent (Merckx was an excellent descender). They both crashed. Merckx remounted, but Ocaña had a bent wheel. He needed a new bike.
At this point, Zoetemelk came down the mountain, swerved to avoid Ocaña's car and....hit Ocaña. Ocaña got up and.......got hit by Agostinho. End of Ocaña's Tour when he had a 10 minute GC lead.

72: None of them rode the Vuelta. Ocaña was ill most of the Tour, finally retiring with bronchitis midway through. Merckx won.

73: Ocaña dropped Merckx on the Vuelta's only mountain stage, but lost time in the other, flat, stages. Merckx won the Vuelta. Merckx didn't contest the Tour and Ocaña dominated it completely.

 

[Zweistein]

71: Ocaña was dominating, even putting almost 9 minutes into Merckx on a single mountain stage. Then he made the dumb mistake of trying to follow Merckx down a difficult descent (Merckx was an excellent descender). They both crashed. Merckx remounted, but Ocaña had a bent wheel. He needed a new bike.
At this point, Zoetemelk came down the mountain, swerved to avoid Ocaña's car and....hit Ocaña. Ocaña got up and.......got hit by Agostinho. End of Ocaña's Tour when he had a 10 minute GC lead.

72: None of them rode the Vuelta. Ocaña was ill most of the Tour, finally retiring with bronchitis midway through. Merckx won.

73: Ocaña dropped Merckx on the Vuelta's only mountain stage, but lost time in the other, flat, stages. Merckx won the Vuelta. Merckx didn't contest the Tour and Ocaña dominated it completely.

Thanks. My favorite have always been people who have won but with a lot of difficulties.

Fignon (lost by the smallest margin and a lot of injuries and screwed out of the Giro)
Lemond (fighting his own team to win and being shot, Ocana (chronically problems)
Roche (everything came together for one season),
Poulider (a nice guy even though he had every reason to be ****ed for always taking second)
Jacques Anquetil (pure badass- one of the best cyclist to come out of french but the public hated him)

 

[slowspoke]

I was idly looking through the interweb and I found the old Der Speigel article from 1999. Thought it would make interesting reading for people.

http://translate.googleusercontent....0.html&usg=ALkJrhjQRNgoEmImrAWxGa7IyZD-J_tzzQ

 

[mewmewmew13]

I was idly looking through the interweb and I found the old Der Speigel article from 1999. Thought it would make interesting reading for people.

http://translate.googleusercontent....0.html&usg=ALkJrhjQRNgoEmImrAWxGa7IyZD-J_tzzQ

thank you for posting the link slowspoke
I miss Jan racing

 

[Magnus]

then wouldn't you agree the height and weight of
Indurain
Riis
Ullrich
is a strange anomaly given that these riders would not historically have been contenders in GTs, which you say are now even more mountainous, and given that you cannot present a post-war pre-epo GC or mtn stage winner hauling that much sheer bone matter

something changed fundamentally to put these guys at least in striking distance of lightweights

i suppose the only question is why Cancellara (1.86m/80kg) can't break through

Riis was 69 kg. Hardly an anomaly.

 

[Cobblestoned]

Susan, thank you for waking up the Suisse out of their sleep to comment on der Jan. Still nothing happened. lol
Nice article, btw.
You should have added more "dirty" things, but not about der Jan.
Sure you forgot all the processes and mud thrown to Jan.

Ok, thats not really relevant for the sporting issue.

 

[rzombie1988]

Why are they still investigating and bothering with Ullrich? He's done.

 

[Neworld]

Why are they still investigating and bothering with Ullrich? He's done.

Agreed! I like Jan but am not blinded by reality of his past, and if he was still racing the book should be thrown at him as hard as the next doping rider. But he has retired and has now interest in even coaching or re-entering the sport. This is completely bizarre...talk about inequality. What about Frank Schleck, Kloden, Leipheimer, Vino... The UCI should at least be consistent no?

“The UCI appealed to the CAS, and we are still waiting for a hearing to be set (or maybe for a written decision with regard to some procedural issues raised in relations to this case),” UCI spokesman Enrico Carpani told Cyclingnews. “So presently I can't say more on this.”

Is the UCI unilaterally pursuing a trial against Ullrich or is it WADA that is forcing the UCI hand. But, the 'trial's' against Jan have never been fair, why not I guess.

NW