Jayco al-'Ula and its GreenEdge predecessors

[yaco]

Re:

Oh completely forgot about Bewley (which complicates things). Hepburn is perfect as a third man in a leadout and is a better TTTer (in my view), yet Bewley does have the Chaves connection.

I'd take Kreuziger over Howson and Verona if he isn't too fatigued as he's more explosive than Howson and just better than Verona. However he might want to ride in Canada (of which the same goes for Gerrans). Also this doesn't mean I don't want Howson (or an improved Verona in the squad), I just feel if you had to choose from these 3 riders for the rest of the roster that's who i'd go for.

Lastly the two reasons I picked Kluge over Mezgec were: firstly he's a great flatland grunt who's intuitive and good for crosswinds (who can also share co-captaincy duties with Gerrans); and secondly that would translate well to the TTT. However as you said Mezgec is more versatile and that would help Cort on his more selective finishes + the idea that Kluge isn't happy at ORS could complicate it too.
Personally I'd have loved for Edmondson to ride this (instead of the Giro) and in an ideal world Power would be riding this too (yet he's too inexperienced for what will probably be Orica's best chance for the GC in a GT).

You are right. Edmondson should have always ridden the Vuelta.

 

[yaco]

Dowsett is one that interests me. Should be riding Gt's but is unfortunately in the wrong team. He could find a niche at Orica.

 

[dirkprovin]

Re:

Dowsett is one that interests me. Should be riding Gt's but is unfortunately in the wrong team. He could find a niche at Orica.

Whilst I can see where you are coming from, I'm not exactly sold on pursuing him.

First and foremost he is a top line TTer. Whilst Orica will probably always take some pride in having a strong TTT, its probably not as high a priority as in the early years where it could mean they ticked off the box of a GT stage win early on.

In a GT context, what will his purpose be ?? Primarily a big flat land grunt engine. Whilst Tuft will exit the scene either at the end of this season or next, they are still well served with the likes of Durbridge and I would venture to suggest the likes of Hepburn & Bewley probably offer wider versatility. He's certainly not going to push anyone out of the cobbles crew.

Could be useful but neither do I see him as a major "get"

 

[StryderHells]

Re:

.....

 

[StryderHells]

Re: Re:

Dowsett is one that interests me. Should be riding Gt's but is unfortunately in the wrong team. He could find a niche at Orica.

Has Dowsett really shown he would be a rider who would fit in at Orica? He's a handy tester no doubt but outside of that has he been seen hammering away for a team leader or been a decent bottle fetcher? Movistar has always been an odd fit so possibly he's yet to show what he can do but from all available evidence I don't see what role he fills at Orica that's not already been taken.

 

[yaco]

Re: Re:

Dowsett is one that interests me. Should be riding Gt's but is unfortunately in the wrong team. He could find a niche at Orica.

Has Dowsett really shown he would be a rider who would fit in at Orica? He's a handy tester no doubt but outside of that has he been seen hammering away for a team leader or been a decent bottle fetcher? Movistar has always been an odd fit so possibly he's yet to show what he can do but from all available evidence I don't see what role he fills at Orica that's not already been taken.

He will in effect replace Gerrans and Tuft. Dowsett spends his life fetching bottles at MS with the occasional foray into ITT. Think he is a good fit

 

[yaco]

Re: Re:

Dowsett is one that interests me. Should be riding Gt's but is unfortunately in the wrong team. He could find a niche at Orica.

Has Dowsett really shown he would be a rider who would fit in at Orica? He's a handy tester no doubt but outside of that has he been seen hammering away for a team leader or been a decent bottle fetcher? Movistar has always been an odd fit so possibly he's yet to show what he can do but from all available evidence I don't see what role he fills at Orica that's not already been taken.

Anyway may see you riding your bike as i am currently in a chilly Melbourne

 

[dirkprovin]

Re: Re:

Dowsett is one that interests me. Should be riding Gt's but is unfortunately in the wrong team. He could find a niche at Orica.

Has Dowsett really shown he would be a rider who would fit in at Orica? He's a handy tester no doubt but outside of that has he been seen hammering away for a team leader or been a decent bottle fetcher? Movistar has always been an odd fit so possibly he's yet to show what he can do but from all available evidence I don't see what role he fills at Orica that's not already been taken.

He will in effect replace Gerrans and Tuft. Dowsett spends his life fetching bottles at MS with the occasional foray into ITT. Think he is a good fit

Tuft .... yes; Gerrans .. no. Gerrans is already being covered off in an Ardennes sense by both Yates and Kreuziger (if he stays beyond 2018) and longer term maybe Haig ? Whilst Dowsett matches off with Tuft grunt-wise, what will Dowsett be asking $$$wise and couldn't you probably get similar value somewhere else on the market for a lower asking price ? Just because he's Anglo doesn't mean he's necessarily going to be a "fit".

I'd like to have a better read on whether they are able to snap up any (or how many) of the peak young AUS U/23s that may come on the market PLUS whether they can retain Haig & Cort as well as who is definitely in the offload queue before looking at what mature age riders are available. We still don't know the longer term financial security and whether there IS a replacement for Orica as lead sponsor.

 

[yaco]

Re: Re:

Dowsett is one that interests me. Should be riding Gt's but is unfortunately in the wrong team. He could find a niche at Orica.

Has Dowsett really shown he would be a rider who would fit in at Orica? He's a handy tester no doubt but outside of that has he been seen hammering away for a team leader or been a decent bottle fetcher? Movistar has always been an odd fit so possibly he's yet to show what he can do but from all available evidence I don't see what role he fills at Orica that's not already been taken.

He will in effect replace Gerrans and Tuft. Dowsett spends his life fetching bottles at MS with the occasional foray into ITT. Think he is a good fit

Tuft .... yes; Gerrans .. no. Gerrans is already being covered off in an Ardennes sense by both Yates and Kreuziger (if he stays beyond 2018) and longer term maybe Haig ? Whilst Dowsett matches off with Tuft grunt-wise, what will Dowsett be asking $$$wise and couldn't you probably get similar value somewhere else on the market for a lower asking price ? Just because he's Anglo doesn't mean he's necessarily going to be a "fit".

I'd like to have a better read on whether they are able to snap up any (or how many) of the peak young AUS U/23s that may come on the market PLUS whether they can retain Haig & Cort as well as who is definitely in the offload queue before looking at what mature age riders are available. We still don't know the longer term financial security and whether there IS a replacement for Orica as lead sponsor.

Have no idea about sponsorship in the future. Reckon there should be Australian companies with international ambitions who should want to sponsor the team. Have no doubt Haig and Cort will stay. The most interesting of the under 23's is Stannard though he only turns 19 in September. Tour of L'Avenir will provide more information. I expect Cannondale will snap up one of the under 23's.

 

[dirkprovin]

Re: Re:

Have no idea about sponsorship in the future. Reckon there should be Australian companies with international ambitions who should want to sponsor the team. Have no doubt Haig and Cort will stay. The most interesting of the under 23's is Stannard though he only turns 19 in September. Tour of L'Avenir will provide more information. I expect Cannondale will snap up one of the under 23's.

What AUS corporates could and should do ..... and what they actually do are frequently diametrically different things especially when it comes to long term sponsorhips in major sport. This is going to be the pivotal issue upon which the entire future of the team beyond 2018 will revolve. Gerry Ryan cannot and will not provide an unlimited blank cheque to make up the shortfall for longer than a season or so.

Cort and Edmondson fit what looks to be the Orica model going forward for the next few years and they should be the young quick classics guys/sprinters the team invests in rather than Ewan. What will be interesting is what market interest either may attract. Ditto Haig.

You are correct that Avenir will fill out the story much further with regards Hindley, Hamilton & Storer. Not all of them may necessarily make the jump this year but I would expect at least 2 will. Stannard may indeed jump early but I'd expect even then we may be 1-2 years away from that move. Cannondale ...... will most certainly be wanting to snap up someone but just how well advised WILL these young men be as the team's result sheet of recent year's isn't exactly a prime selling point. IF all 3 touted DO take the jump, one would think Orica would ideally like to snaffle 2 ..... and that there'd be major post-mortems should they fail to pick up any.

 

[yaco]

Re: Re:

Have no idea about sponsorship in the future. Reckon there should be Australian companies with international ambitions who should want to sponsor the team. Have no doubt Haig and Cort will stay. The most interesting of the under 23's is Stannard though he only turns 19 in September. Tour of L'Avenir will provide more information. I expect Cannondale will snap up one of the under 23's.

What AUS corporates could and should do ..... and what they actually do are frequently diametrically different things especially when it comes to long term sponsorhips in major sport. This is going to be the pivotal issue upon which the entire future of the team beyond 2018 will revolve. Gerry Ryan cannot and will not provide an unlimited blank cheque to make up the shortfall for longer than a season or so.

Cort and Edmondson fit what looks to be the Orica model going forward for the next few years and they should be the young quick classics guys/sprinters the team invests in rather than Ewan. What will be interesting is what market interest either may attract. Ditto Haig.

You are correct that Avenir will fill out the story much further with regards Hindley, Hamilton & Storer. Not all of them may necessarily make the jump this year but I would expect at least 2 will. Stannard may indeed jump early but I'd expect even then we may be 1-2 years away from that move. Cannondale ...... will most certainly be wanting to snap up someone but just how well advised WILL these young men be as the team's result sheet of recent year's isn't exactly a prime selling point. IF all 3 touted DO take the jump, one would think Orica would ideally like to snaffle 2 ..... and that there'd be major post-mortems should they fail to pick up any.

There will be a Senate Enquiry if Orica fails to recruit one of three aforementioned riders

 

[yaco]

Durbridge crashed though he finished the ITT. Could be in doubt to continue the TDF.

 

[dirkprovin]

Re:

Durbridge crashed though he finished the ITT. Could be in doubt to continue the TDF.

Wondered why his split time was down so far and suspected he may have hit the tarmac. Hopefully he can continue and can be nursed through the next few days as they'd really not want to be down 1 man this early.

'Excellent rides from Yates & Impey. Howson & Albasini solid although I suspect Howson may've back off a percentage point or two. Others just did what they had to do.

 

[dirkprovin]

Re:

Durbridge crashed though he finished the ITT. Could be in doubt to continue the TDF.

According to team report "fell on his ankle and scans have confirmed he has avoided any broken bones but has identified ligament damage.We will monitor the injury overnight and test tomorrow before making a final decision of his ability to start stage two.”

Tweet from @luke_durbridge "Unfortunately was taking a few to many risks out there in the wet. A sprained ankle for me but I'll be out there again tomorrow. #TDF2017"

Dunno if that's wise, hopefully teams medicos have the final word

Team announcement "Luke Durbridge has been monitored overnight & been through a test this morning. He will start today & continue to be monitored."

 

[yaco]

Durbridge out. Tough to ride with damaged ankle ligaments

 

[dirkprovin]

Re:

Durbridge out. Tough to ride with damaged ankle ligaments

Wise move. Let him recover properly and then consider subbing him into the Vuelta line-up if he's fit. Would most certaintly strengthen them for the stg 1 TTT and would most certainly ease the grunt load on Bewley.

Will be very curious as to how they play this first week with regards to Chaves & Howson. Will they be green-lighted to drop further time and just ride into Vuelta condition ... with the potential for some stage fun n games if his legs start coming good in the 2nd half of the Tour and/or play a part in any team set-piece should SY's form hold and he remain in contention for a top 5 finish.

 

[yaco]

Re: Re:

Durbridge out. Tough to ride with damaged ankle ligaments

Wise move. Let him recover properly and then consider subbing him into the Vuelta line-up if he's fit. Would most certaintly strengthen them for the stg 1 TTT and would most certainly ease the grunt load on Bewley.

Will be very curious as to how they play this first week with regards to Chaves & Howson. Will they be green-lighted to drop further time and just ride into Vuelta condition ... with the potential for some stage fun n games if his legs start coming good in the 2nd half of the Tour and/or play a part in any team set-piece should SY's form hold and he remain in contention for a top 5 finish.

Interesting that Hayman is guiding Yates through the peleton. While Keukeliere is doing the same for Chavez.

Vuelta is an interesting conundrum for the team. You want to give riders such as Cort, Bewley and Kluge a GT start.

 

[dirkprovin]

Re: Re:

Durbridge out. Tough to ride with damaged ankle ligaments

Wise move. Let him recover properly and then consider subbing him into the Vuelta line-up if he's fit. Would most certaintly strengthen them for the stg 1 TTT and would most certainly ease the grunt load on Bewley.

Will be very curious as to how they play this first week with regards to Chaves & Howson. Will they be green-lighted to drop further time and just ride into Vuelta condition ... with the potential for some stage fun n games if his legs start coming good in the 2nd half of the Tour and/or play a part in any team set-piece should SY's form hold and he remain in contention for a top 5 finish.

Interesting that Hayman is guiding Yates through the peleton. While Keukeliere is doing the same for Chavez.

Vuelta is an interesting conundrum for the team. You want to give riders such as Cort, Bewley and Kluge a GT start.

\

Think both Hayman & Keukeleire would be wise choices for such roles.

I would have both Cort & Bewley in my Vuelta line-up. Kluge, on the other hand, does not merit selection and I'd far prefer Mezgec as the lead-out man. Whilst Kluge has a bigger body, its most likely to be a less hectic sprint environment and Mezgec doesn't run up the white flag every time the road goes up.

My line up" Chaves, AY, Haig, Plaza, Howson, Cort, Durbridge, Bewley, Mezgec.

Howson could be interchangeable with Kreuziger depending on how deep either may've gone during the Tour but I'd actually be happier seeing Kreuziger given some chances to ride for himself at Bretagne and the Laurentian races given he may perhaps have been short-changed opportunities during Ardennes week.

In any case, the likes of Durbridge, Bewley, Plaza, Howson & Haig should be able to pull both Chaves & AY through the TTT without any significant time deficit unless there's an accident.

 

[yaco]

Re: Re:

Durbridge out. Tough to ride with damaged ankle ligaments

Wise move. Let him recover properly and then consider subbing him into the Vuelta line-up if he's fit. Would most certaintly strengthen them for the stg 1 TTT and would most certainly ease the grunt load on Bewley.

Will be very curious as to how they play this first week with regards to Chaves & Howson. Will they be green-lighted to drop further time and just ride into Vuelta condition ... with the potential for some stage fun n games if his legs start coming good in the 2nd half of the Tour and/or play a part in any team set-piece should SY's form hold and he remain in contention for a top 5 finish.

Interesting that Hayman is guiding Yates through the peleton. While Keukeliere is doing the same for Chavez.

Vuelta is an interesting conundrum for the team. You want to give riders such as Cort, Bewley and Kluge a GT start.

\

Think both Hayman & Keukeleire would be wise choices for such roles.

I would have both Cort & Bewley in my Vuelta line-up. Kluge, on the other hand, does not merit selection and I'd far prefer Mezgec as the lead-out man. Whilst Kluge has a bigger body, its most likely to be a less hectic sprint environment and Mezgec doesn't run up the white flag every time the road goes up.

My line up" Chaves, AY, Haig, Plaza, Howson, Cort, Durbridge, Bewley, Mezgec.

Howson could be interchangeable with Kreuziger depending on how deep either may've gone during the Tour but I'd actually be happier seeing Kreuziger given some chances to ride for himself at Bretagne and the Laurentian races given he may perhaps have been short-changed opportunities during Ardennes week.

In any case, the likes of Durbridge, Bewley, Plaza, Howson & Haig should be able to pull both Chaves & AY through the TTT without any significant time deficit unless there's an accident.

Plaza is a certainty. Also adds to the ttt strength

 

[yaco]

Saw a pic of Durbridge's crash. He went into the barriers harder than Valverde. A lucky boy.

 

[Kokoso]

Re: Re:

Kreuziger/Howson/Verona ? Kreuziger will almost certainly be riding as SY's lieutenant and given SY will most likely be the prime GC focus; he will most likely have to dig considerably deeper than Howson may.

Even if riding Tour full gas people are still very able at La Vuelta, so that's really not an issue. Anyway why not Kreuziger instead of Plaza, or Gerrans, or Kluge?

Plausible scenario but would not one of the peak clauses in his contract be that he ride the Tour, at least in year 1 of his contract ?

This question doesn't make a sense in the context of what I've written, so I suppose you've misread me. BTW you've misread my words in the Kreuziger thread for sure some time ago.

Regarding rest of your post, I don't think Plaza was so great at Giro that you wouldn't consider another rider for another race. It seems that you rely on "pairing" too much; these are professionals, Kreuziger can support A. Yates as well as Plaza and rode races in Adam's support, too. That one rider rode good race with another rider in one race doesn't automaticaly mean he's the best option for another race. On the top of that, resting between Tour and Vuelta shows up not to be all that important. Furthermore, there won't be only Adam Yates but Chaves, too and he'll need support, too.

BTW Kreuziger is versatile rider, useful in mountains, hills and on the flat.

Yes, Kreuziger COULD do this but the issue of pairing/connection between riders DOES have relevance where there is a clear record of the lead rider and their support rider working productively/successfully together. Case in point being Chaves & Howson at both Giro & Vueta last year (even arguably 2015 Vuelta). Personally, given that Chaves is NOT realistically going to GC contend at the Tour; I would have held Howson back to ride the Vuelta fresh but Orica Hierarchy have decided differently

Plaza DID ride particularly well in support of AY at the Giro; whilst not a "slam dunk" it is at least a strong point in his favour. Yes, riders ARE professionals and can be expected to ride with anyone .... but teams DO make calls on whom they look to team up together and this season, it has looked to be SY with Kreuziger at the one weekers apart from the abortive T-A outing with AY & Chaves also riding Dauphine. This may not have been Orica's original intention for the season but with Chaves being sidelined for 2-3 months, this is at least how the season has played out.

I would have no issue should Kreuziger be selected but they will most likely already have the likes of Howson & Haig in the line-up ... and I suspect Plaza will be there. Two of them should be "fresh" (Haig & Plaza) and I'd suspect that Howson may be not be as heavily worked at the Tour as Kreuziger. Therefore I'd see him as a "nice to have" rather than a "must have" with regards to Vuelta selection. If he's come out of the Tour in good shape/no illness then I'd be happy to "green light" his selection

What seems clear to me is that you are a Kreuziger "partisan" .... I'm not critcising you for that. What I do find irritating is that you seem to look for offence/slights against him where none was either intended or expressed ! Perhaps this may be just issues of language/translation or maybe we just view through different lenses; your's as a fan of a specific rider whereas I do not see myself as a partisan of any particular rider of any nationality or any team.

I still wonder what this "would not one of the peak clauses in his contract be that he ride the Tour, at least in year 1 of his contract ?" meant?
I haven't said that pairing of riders is irrelevant or somehing, don't distort my words.

Shouting is unnecessary and you look ridiculous.

Don't know what "partisan" means. What I could understand is that I appear differently from what I am given you repeatedly don't understand written words. Offence? Why? You're the one shouting here constantly (or is your Caps Lock broken? ) and distorting words. What did offend you, really?

Well, you aren't fan of anyone. Don't you see yourself as a fan of Orica?
Anyway, I don't see how to be fan of someone changes lenses compared to being fan of no one?

 

[RedheadDane]

Doesn't look like shouting to me. Simply the use of capital letters instead of italics; to put focus on certain words.

---

Err... does anyone know what happened to Diana Casas? The team just posted on FB that she'd died, but no explanation as to how, and I can't figure it out.

 

[dirkprovin]

Re:

Doesn't look like shouting to me. Simply the use of capital letters instead of italics; to put focus on certain words.

---

Err... does anyone know what happened to Diana Casas? The team just posted on FB that she'd died, but no explanation as to how, and I can't figure it out.

https://cyclingtips.com/news/monday-daily-news-digest-6/

Orica-Scott GC contender Esteban Chaves has had a blow to his morale in his first Tour de France with the news that his friend Diana Casas Jiménez has been killed in Colombia.

Casas Jiménez was a physiotherapist with the Fundación Esteban-Bike-house team and was also a masseuse for Chaves. She lost her life taking part in the Desafío a Letras recreational event on Sunday, which began in Mariquita-Tolima, about 150 kilometres northwest of Bogota.

According to Revista Mundo Ciclistico, indications are that she lost control and crashed on a descent, hitting a vehicle.

“Unfortunately it’s a reality,” said Chaves’ father Jairo, who was with her. “We were going up, there was a single descent in front of Padua, there was a sharp turn to the right and I passed.”

He said that she went quickly into a bend and hit a vehicle. “The trauma she had was very complicated,” he said. “She suffered cardio-respiratory arrest. That is the reality of everything.”

Horrible news, thoughts with those closest to her

 

[Escarabajo]

Very bad news. All those descents are very dangerous.

 

[liamito]

Yates didn't look good today