Jayco al-'Ula and its GreenEdge predecessors

[Midnightfright]

And on the football front, GE's team is like Australia...we're upstarts but we'll probably still win the World Cup before England does

Ok I'm not English but you do realize they have already won the world cup?

 

[PCutter]

Ok I'm not English but you do realize they have already won the world cup?

Yes, I'm aware that nearly half a century ago England managed to win. Even aware of the 'ghost goal' and the commentators quote which was used in New Order's World in Motion.

I was referring to going forward

And they'd have to win to prove me wrong.........

 

[Midnightfright]

Yes, I'm aware that nearly half a century ago England managed to win. Even aware of the 'ghost goal' and the commentators quote which was used in New Order's World in Motion.

I was referring to going forward

And they'd have to win to prove me wrong.........

Well they don't need to prove anything with regards to winning the world cup. Doesn't matter how long ago it was it happened, if your waiting for then to prove to u they can win it again well I hope your a patient man.

 

[Tuarts]

On a side note, when i mentioned the 75% thing a few pages I was told I was talking rubbish by the aussies and that only about 60% of the riders would be Australian, based on the list of definate transfers from Rupert Guinness or someone.

Well, if you include the signings of Beppu and Kroupis they are at 58%, 15/26. Without them 67%.

Oh and out of the 34 Aussies on the Pro/PrConti circuit, they've signed 15.

 

[Nielsa]

In fairness, GE should be allowed to get a season under their belt (as Sky have) before you add them to that poll. Then yep, bring it on. Garmin will be cactus in the classics anyway not sure JV's quote of "takes>gives" holds much water given his team announcements.

To be fair to him, I think he said that after GE signed Bobridge/2xMeyer, and JV had signed Rosseler and Rasmussen. Not his fault that Rasmussen can't click "Send" in a computer program.

 

[simo1733]

And on the football front, GE's team is like Australia...we're upstarts but we'll probably still win the World Cup before England does

I wouldn't hold your breath waiting for Aus to win the world cup . Wait untill you have a world class player first.

 

[just some guy]

I really do like a digress but can we stop the freaking soccer/football talk . I hate the stupid thing

 

[Andy99]

I really do like a digress but can we stop the freaking soccer/football talk . I hate the stupid thing

You want to try reading/viewing any kind of media over here. Can't get away from the bluddy game.

 

[simo1733]

I really wish Greenedge well.Australia deserve to have a competitive pro tour team.Recently though I find my self increasingly irritated by Greenedge.
The reason is not the team(although I'm sure Nygard will rectify that)but the forum fan boys.
For that reason I'm out.
Ps same thing happened with Cadel.

 

[LukeSchmid]

I really wish Greenedge well.Australia deserve to have a competitive pro tour team.Recently though I find my self increasingly irritated by Greenedge.
The reason is not the team(although I'm sure Nygard will rectify that)but the forum fan boys.
For that reason I'm out.
Ps same thing happened with Cadel.

Who are the fanboys?

 

[briztoon]

Me.

simo1733, seriously mate, if you're getting ****ed off because more Aussies are interested (even fleetingly) in cycling, you need to re-evaluate why you're in to cycling.

Atleast you know deep down inside that you're truely hard core and were in to the sport before it became popular.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Me.

simo1733, seriously mate, if you're getting ****ed off because more Aussies are interested (even fleetingly) in cycling, you need to re-evaluate why you're in to cycling.

Atleast you know deep down inside that you're truely hard core and were in to the sport before it became popular.

At the same time, it's not about élitism, it's about saturation.

Do you remember when Team Sky was new and we had feature interviews on every single rider on the squad, and every single barely-disguised press release from Brailsford became a front page article, including such gems as "Team Sky practice TT on TT bikes" and "Team Sky perfect leadout at leadout training"? We were sick and tired of hearing about them, especially considering nothing of any substance was being said.

This is likely what is irking some about GreenEdge. You don't mind there being news and hype if there's some substance to what is being said.

Personally, I dislike them more for their ridiculous corporate marketing which reeks of the worst kind of management-speak, their boring set-up and their roster of riders showing that the team is designing itself almost entirely around a kind of racing I despise.

 

[auscyclefan94]

Me.

simo1733, seriously mate, if you're getting ****ed off because more Aussies are interested (even fleetingly) in cycling, you need to re-evaluate why you're in to cycling.

Atleast you know deep down inside that you're truely hard core and were in to the sport before it became popular.

Don't bother with him/her. The fact that he mentioned that the 'same thing happened with Cadel' means I am on that list of fanboys that annoy him. I am not bothered about it remotely. Nor should you be. Smile and enjoy the project GreenEdge wll become.

At the same time, it's not about élitism, it's about saturation.

Do you remember when Team Sky was new and we had feature interviews on every single rider on the squad, and every single barely-disguised press release from Brailsford became a front page article, including such gems as "Team Sky practice TT on TT bikes" and "Team Sky perfect leadout at leadout training"? We were sick and tired of hearing about them, especially considering nothing of any substance was being said.

This is likely what is irking some about GreenEdge. You don't mind there being news and hype if there's some substance to what is being said.

Personally, I dislike them more for their ridiculous corporate marketing which reeks of the worst kind of management-speak, their boring set-up and their roster of riders showing that the team is designing itself almost entirely around a kind of racing I despise.

Some parts I agree with and some parts I don't. I don't necessarily think you can compare the news articles about insignificant things or the sensationalist rubbish that came out of Brailsford's mouth because they haven't started competing yet. I do agree that some hype surrounding some of their riders annoys me and their recruitment has been poor. I also don't like their attitude to not picking up a stage racer and getting a lot of old riders and sprinters. What problem do you specifically have with their marketing? Could I be right in saying that you don't like the nationalism that surrounds them about being x% Australian?

 

[Anonymous]

In fairness, GE should be allowed to get a season under their belt (as Sky have) before you add them to that poll. Then yep, bring it on. Garmin will be cactus in the classics anyway not sure JV's quote of "takes>gives" holds much water given his team announcements.

why, there was a sky v garmin poll in 2010

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Some parts I agree with and some parts I don't. I don't necessarily think you can compare the news articles about insignificant things or the sensationalist rubbish that came out of Brailsford's mouth because they haven't started competing yet. I do agree that some hype surrounding some of their riders annoys me and their recruitment has been poor. I also don't like their attitude to not picking up a stage racer and getting a lot of old riders and sprinters. What problem do you specifically have with their marketing? Could I be right in saying that you don't like the nationalism that surrounds them about being x% Australian?

The articles about trivialities and so forth with Sky got worse and worse as time went on. When they got to the launch, it was at saturation point. And then you had them holding their Aussie and NZ riders out of their own nationals because they wanted the team to debut the new kit all together - despite that we'd already seen the kit, at the launch.

The problem with Sky was not just that they were everywhere, but the nature of their marketing. All very clean, corporate, the language was the very worst kind of management drivel, it felt like it was all dreamt up by businessmen with Excel spreadsheets and PowerPoint presentations about target markets and key facts, rather than anybody who felt any connection with the emotion of the sport. Sky have overcome that obstacle to some extent, but GreenEdge are stepping straight into that void with the very same kind of cringeworthy corporate sales speech. At the moment, it's not been too bad as it hasn't been all over the press, but I can see it getting worse as the team prepares to launch and starts competing (especially given the TDU will be far more important to them than anybody else so there's a good chance they'll hit the ground running - hopefully they won't be as ridiculously self-congratulatory as Sky was before the péloton cut them down to size in Oman).

I am a bit reluctant to be accepting of quasi-nationalist teams. It's not such a problem in Holland, Belgium, France, Italy or Spain where you have multiple teams, many with different focuses or regional origins, which cause competition. But I am inherently suspicious of these national projects like Astana, Katyusha, Sky and now GreenEdge. It's almost like, they NEED to have all the successful riders from that country to justify the national focus (hence Astana buying Kashechkin back after Vino's injury, Sky pursuing Cavendish even as Froome and Wiggins prove that GCs are a viable aim for the team). And the reported treatment with them sabotaging the Pegasus project in order to not get pre-empted makes me inherently suspicious of them from a moral standpoint.

But my main problem is, I can't stand their recruitment policy and anticipate them being the dullest team in the péloton next year by quite some way.

 

[auscyclefan94]

The articles about trivialities and so forth with Sky got worse and worse as time went on. When they got to the launch, it was at saturation point. And then you had them holding their Aussie and NZ riders out of their own nationals because they wanted the team to debut the new kit all together - despite that we'd already seen the kit, at the launch.

The problem with Sky was not just that they were everywhere, but the nature of their marketing. All very clean, corporate, the language was the very worst kind of management drivel, it felt like it was all dreamt up by businessmen with Excel spreadsheets and PowerPoint presentations about target markets and key facts, rather than anybody who felt any connection with the emotion of the sport. Sky have overcome that obstacle to some extent, but GreenEdge are stepping straight into that void with the very same kind of cringeworthy corporate sales speech. At the moment, it's not been too bad as it hasn't been all over the press, but I can see it getting worse as the team prepares to launch and starts competing (especially given the TDU will be far more important to them than anybody else so there's a good chance they'll hit the ground running - hopefully they won't be as ridiculously self-congratulatory as Sky was before the péloton cut them down to size in Oman).

I am a bit reluctant to be accepting of quasi-nationalist teams. It's not such a problem in Holland, Belgium, France, Italy or Spain where you have multiple teams, many with different focuses or regional origins, which cause competition. But I am inherently suspicious of these national projects like Astana, Katyusha, Sky and now GreenEdge. It's almost like, they NEED to have all the successful riders from that country to justify the national focus (hence Astana buying Kashechkin back after Vino's injury, Sky pursuing Cavendish even as Froome and Wiggins prove that GCs are a viable aim for the team). And the reported treatment with them sabotaging the Pegasus project in order to not get pre-empted makes me inherently suspicious of them from a moral standpoint.

But my main problem is, I can't stand their recruitment policy and anticipate them being the dullest team in the péloton next year by quite some way.

Fair enough. Your points are quie valid. Regarding the national focus, it could all turn pear shaped when GreenEdge struggle to get results at the Tour. not necessarily for a sponsorship point of view as Ryan will just fund the team himself but from the non-cycling following Australian. They will want to see succss in the races they know such as the Tour de France, Tour Down Under and lesser known races (to the average Aussie) such as Paris Roubaix. If they don't see reports on the tv about GreenEdge not getting results then they will lose interest. They need some success in their first season for that support to continue on.

I think the reason why it is important in a country like Australia to have a quasi nationalist team is because as sports fans we are very nationalistic in our following of sport. The unbridled support for an Australian sportsmen or Australian team is very hard to match in the measure of passion and barracking because of sport being such a big part of our culture. Playing for the green and gold is also harped on about a fair bit as well. Because cycling isn't a highly popular sport, fans are going to only going to show some interest because it is an Australian and not because their favourite rider is on that team which is more the case in Europe.

I've just realised that GreenEdge could have 17 riders in the nationals next year. Most of the other pro riders at most will have a few Aussie team mates which means the race is going to be very controlled from the start by Green Edge and going to be very hard for them to not win. Another point is that with the high number of Australian riders at GreenEdge and not spread amongst all the other pro teams, there will be less Aussie riders competing at the tour down under due to the 7 rider teams which is a bit of a shame I guess.

 

[Midnightfright]

Fair enough. Your points are quie valid. Regarding the national focus, it could all turn pear shaped when GreenEdge struggle to get results at the Tour. not necessarily for a sponsorship point of view as Ryan will just fund the team himself but from the non-cycling following Australian. They will want to see succss in the races they know such as the Tour de France, Tour Down Under and lesser known races (to the average Aussie) such as Paris Roubaix. If they don't see reports on the tv about GreenEdge not getting results then they will lose interest. They need some success in their first season for that support to continue on.

I think the reason why it is important in a country like Australia to have a quasi nationalist team is because as sports fans we are very nationalistic in our following of sport. The unbridled support for an Australian sportsmen or Australian team is very hard to match in the measure of passion and barracking because of sport being such a big part of our culture. Playing for the green and gold is also harped on about a fair bit as well. Because cycling isn't a highly popular sport, fans are going to only going to show some interest because it is an Australian and not because their favourite rider is on that team which is more the case in Europe.

I've just realised that GreenEdge could have 17 riders in the nationals next year. Most of the other pro riders at most will have a few Aussie team mates which means the race is going to be very controlled from the start by Green Edge and going to be very hard for them to not win. Another point is that with the high number of Australian riders at GreenEdge and not spread amongst all the other pro teams, there will be less Aussie riders competing at the tour down under due to the 7 rider teams which is a bit of a shame I guess.

It's a bit of a shame they can't have a Greenedge A and Greenedge B . I thought it was 6 man teams at TDU.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

The other thing is, if GreenEdge become option #1 for Australian youngsters coming through, then it may end up limiting them because the team doesn't suit them as cyclists, much the same way as a British rider with a skillset not suited to Team Sky may find themselves stagnating a bit. Luckily for Aussies, there are enough Aussies in the ProTour world that they have plenty of role models outside of GreenEdge; the Britons outside the Sky umbrella are few and far between. Plus, of course, in order to be seen as the key British team, Sky have almost needed to pick up all the British stars. After all, last year Britons were being asked to cheer on a New Zealander and a Norwegian in sprints, against Britain's most well-known road cyclist. It then creates the debate: Team Sky OR Cavendish - which is wanting British success more? We only need look at how Team Sky broke the bank (and the moral code) to sign Wiggins in the first place - the British team NEEDED a British contender to legitimise itself in the eyes of fans.

If GreenEdge want to be seen as the de facto Australian team (and you give the impression that they would do, in order to appeal to that patriotism that may be essential to capturing fans' imaginations) then they may find themselves caught up if, say, GreenEdge's pursuit of a sprint damages the GC hopes of Cadel Evans if he's caught behind a crash, or something like that. If patriotism is the main thing your fanbase looks at, then you can't be fighting against the best Aussie rider in the péloton!

Basically, all of these national team projects are fraught with problems. Katyusha couldn't attract Menchov, GreenEdge haven't picked up any Australian men who are even remotely GC oriented, no Evans, Rogers, Porte, nothing. Sky had to break the moral code and the bank to get Wiggins, and then had to wait two years for Cavendish. Astana are the only one that got their man (men) straight away, but that's more because they bought out an existing team, kicked out some Puerto names and Spanish youngsters and replaced them with Kazakh ones.

 

[the_kman]

yeh good points about GE limiting the amount of aussies in the TDF i suppose tht could happen. In hindsight they should be taking the best aussie pro's and leaving others to develop in other teams. but its good GE got all the young aussie talents.

but the exposure GE will give to australian cycling is huge and it will spur on growth of cycling in australia. This is why im loving it.

As for all the anti-nationalism. USA, UK, Italy, Spain, Russia, etc... they all have their teams.. so why be hatin on GE?

 

[Libertine Seguros]

USA, Italy and Spain don't have quasi-national teams.

If the team's defining characteristic is "we're Australian", then it will hurt them that they don't have the top Aussie talents. If they set themselves up as "the Australian team" that young Australian talent will want to flock to, then they may find themselves stunting the growth as riders of some of them that don't fit the expected template, because those riders would probably have been better off going elsewhere to develop.

In the pre-Katyusha days, Russian talent cropped up all over the place. But now most of it is concentrated in one area. If that area is mismanaged or screws stuff up, that's a whole generation of underachieivng Russian cyclists.

The quasi-national approach has a lot of benefits in cycling nations without their own established historical calendar. But let's not kid ourselves that it doesn't have some glaring drawbacks too.

 

[danjo007]

did you miss that part where some great australian talent have gone to green edge?
besides australia have never in the past or currently been lacking in talent - nor will they in the future.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Yes, some great Australian talent has gone to GreenEdge. But quite a lot of it has not, including some of the key names.

Will Australians root for a Dutch guy on an Aussie team against Cadel Evans? It's something that Sky have had to wrestle with for a while with Cavendish being against them. The high quantity and turnover of Australian talent is also a benefit, as there will almost always be too much Australian talent for one team to hold, but it could still wind up hurting some guys' careers if they're mired in a team focused on something antithetical to their strengths.

I'm sure GreenEdge will find a way around these teething problems, just as I'm sure that teething problems will arise.

 

[Timmy-loves-Rabo]

lol for someone like weening, he will get a lot of freedom in a lot of races because they have so little in other areas.

Yes, I'm aware that nearly half a century ago England managed to win. Even aware of the 'ghost goal' and the commentators quote which was used in New Order's World in Motion.

I was referring to going forward

And they'd have to win to prove me wrong.........

considering Australia's poor excuse for a youth system, they're not winning a world cup anytime soon.

Any news regarding Luke Durbridge?

 

[PCutter]

considering Australia's poor excuse for a youth system, they're not winning a world cup anytime soon.

It was only ever meant as a gentle dig at our English friends, not a serious assessment of Australian soccer. Of course, I also put it in the wrong thread as the soccer discussion was actually in the transfer thread. So many threads, so little time....

 

[Timmy-loves-Rabo]

It was only ever meant as a gentle dig at our English friends, not a serious assessment of Australian soccer. Of course, I also put it in the wrong thread as the soccer discussion was actually in the transfer thread. So many threads, so little time....

Mine was a dig at australia's poor youth system, it truly sucks