- Jul 13, 2009
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Well, the "let Caleb finish the Giro" push didn't last too long did it ? For all the optics of him riding on the front on those last two stages. one can only ask "to what positive end did it serve other than 'optics'/a bit of theatre" ? Orica didn't REALLY need to have anyone riding on the front at those points and it wasn't as if he was really cutting the deficit to the break, IF you're going to go to the front, then let there be a clear purpose as to why and, furthermore, WHEN ? The reasoning for the work of Plaza & Verona later in the stage was very clear and served a purpose but all too often during this Giro, Orica has been expending energy and manpower needlessly. What was the reason for his "snap" withdrawal before the end of the stage unless he got completely dropped and wasn't likely to keep touch with the grupetto ? Edmondson had a crash and he has made it 2/3 of the way through, probably wisest to "pull the plug".
Gerrans finished 2nd overall at Tour of Norway after a number of 2nd/3rd place finishes. Apparently he extended some generosity to EBH by neutralising not far before the finish of the final stage so EBH could reconnect after a crash. Certainly a generous gesture and it DID cost him as EBH did win the stage and thus the overall but then again, we do not know the exact circumstances of the crash which may've had influenced Gerran's decision to do what he did.
Gerrans finished 2nd overall at Tour of Norway after a number of 2nd/3rd place finishes. Apparently he extended some generosity to EBH by neutralising not far before the finish of the final stage so EBH could reconnect after a crash. Certainly a generous gesture and it DID cost him as EBH did win the stage and thus the overall but then again, we do not know the exact circumstances of the crash which may've had influenced Gerran's decision to do what he did.
- May 5, 2010
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If he - Ewan - had woken up in the morning maybe not feeling 100% (or... as many percents as can be reasonable to expect two weeks into a GT, don't think anyone is 100%), they might have decided that they might as well use him while they could, if he wasn't gonna get through the stage anyway... (Different team, of course, but bit like when Adam Hansen was sent to the front in the Tour despite having broken basically every bone in his upper body - "Er muss!")
Think Orica got full value in the last two stages from the sprint train of Ewan,Mezgec and Edmondson - Orica was chasing a stage victory so kudos for putting their hat into the ring - Last week will see Orica burning no matches as there is no reason to work - Flat riders to ride in the bunch to protect Yates, and Plaza and Verona will provide support in the mountains - Last week will be Yates following wheels and attacking if he is feeling good.
Provisional Orica start list for Dauphine
Chaves
Keukeliere
Impey
Gerrans
Howson
Kreuziger
S.Yates
Haig
Take out Haig,add two of Albasini/Hayman, Durbridge and that's probably your squad.
Note that Kreuziger,Keukeliere, Hayman and Durbridge have been training at altitude in France.
Provisional Orica start list for Dauphine
Chaves
Keukeliere
Impey
Gerrans
Howson
Kreuziger
S.Yates
Haig
Take out Haig,add two of Albasini/Hayman, Durbridge and that's probably your squad.
Note that Kreuziger,Keukeliere, Hayman and Durbridge have been training at altitude in France.
- May 5, 2010
- 51,713
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- May 23, 2009
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Re:
Sky, Movistar and BMC should be concerned with this squad, especially if Stephens is directing. Good all round firepower.
It will probably be Bewley in for Haig, and Durbridge or Hayman (probably Durbridge, Hayman doesn't enjoy GTs). Albasini and Gerrans is a redundant selection IMO. Bewley's finger should be fine, and Orica won't want to waste the form he's been building in Colombia. If it's not, then both Hayman and Durbridge.yaco said:
Sky, Movistar and BMC should be concerned with this squad, especially if Stephens is directing. Good all round firepower.
- Jul 13, 2009
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Re: Re:
Agree Haig is most likely riding Vuelta rather than Tour. Bewley will most certainly be "in" as Chaves' dedicated minder. I see Durbridge as the other prime flat land engine although others such as Keukeleire. Impey and whichever one of Gerrans/Albasini (only one of those 2 will go) can offer assistance. Also give some credence to 42's remark re Hayman; he's always been much more a one-day man than a stage racer and they DO have other old shrewd heads to call on.
With a line up of Chaves, SY, Kreuziger, Howson, Impey, G or A, Keukeleire, Durbridge & Bewley; you have 2 outright GC men, 2 specialist mountain domestiques, 2 big flat land engine/big bodies to protect the little guys on the flat plus 3 rouleur types who can add support over a wide variety of terrain but can also freelance for wins at selective finishes w/o requiring major diversion of assets
42x16ss said:
Agree Haig is most likely riding Vuelta rather than Tour. Bewley will most certainly be "in" as Chaves' dedicated minder. I see Durbridge as the other prime flat land engine although others such as Keukeleire. Impey and whichever one of Gerrans/Albasini (only one of those 2 will go) can offer assistance. Also give some credence to 42's remark re Hayman; he's always been much more a one-day man than a stage racer and they DO have other old shrewd heads to call on.
With a line up of Chaves, SY, Kreuziger, Howson, Impey, G or A, Keukeleire, Durbridge & Bewley; you have 2 outright GC men, 2 specialist mountain domestiques, 2 big flat land engine/big bodies to protect the little guys on the flat plus 3 rouleur types who can add support over a wide variety of terrain but can also freelance for wins at selective finishes w/o requiring major diversion of assets
I'd like to see Keukeliere in the team because he is a tactically savvy rider and can direct things on the road - The parcours for the TDF is weird, so it's a matter of taking time in strange places.
Hat's off to Plaza - Came into the Giro off a limited preparation and has done an outstanding job in a variety of terrains.
Hat's off to Plaza - Came into the Giro off a limited preparation and has done an outstanding job in a variety of terrains.
Seems like Ewan will be stuck riding the Giro again in 2018,seeing the 2018 TDF is likely to have a TTT - And probably going up again against Gaviria.
Today's stage must have been slow if the whole Orica team which finished together in the peleton.
Today's stage must have been slow if the whole Orica team which finished together in the peleton.
- Jul 13, 2009
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Re:
If that is the case, I can most certainly see a most obscene competition between each of Chaves & the Yates twins as to who can kiss the bosses backside the most .... in order NOT to ride the Giro in 2018 and have their campaign compromised by taking along a resource intensive bunch sprinter. :twisted:
yaco said:
If that is the case, I can most certainly see a most obscene competition between each of Chaves & the Yates twins as to who can kiss the bosses backside the most .... in order NOT to ride the Giro in 2018 and have their campaign compromised by taking along a resource intensive bunch sprinter. :twisted:
Congratulations to Orica for giving their two main riders Ewan and A.Yates every chance in the Giro - The riders have done their best but have fallen a bit short - Probably one climber short and wrong lead out for Ewan.
- Jul 13, 2009
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Hhhmm, can only agree in part. A couple of curious selections but not sure they'd have made an material difference.
First and foremost, Orica does not possess the climbing manpower to be able to field a Movistar or UK Postal (TDF) "train" but has had the capacity to take to the front to attempt some hard drives at various times. That was certainly one stupendous ride today by Plaza, not the first big effort from him at this Giro. Yates simply hasn't quite "had it" to be able to take full advantage; his own poor judgement put him in a deficit situation at Blockhaus but the fact has been that he's been in top 10 form rather than top 5.
As for Ewan, struggling to see that a change in personnel would have altered any outcomes. His results here basically indicate his place in the scheme of things; that of a second tier sprinter who is possibly faster than some ahead of him but possessing a much narrower skill set and range
yaco said:
Hhhmm, can only agree in part. A couple of curious selections but not sure they'd have made an material difference.
First and foremost, Orica does not possess the climbing manpower to be able to field a Movistar or UK Postal (TDF) "train" but has had the capacity to take to the front to attempt some hard drives at various times. That was certainly one stupendous ride today by Plaza, not the first big effort from him at this Giro. Yates simply hasn't quite "had it" to be able to take full advantage; his own poor judgement put him in a deficit situation at Blockhaus but the fact has been that he's been in top 10 form rather than top 5.
As for Ewan, struggling to see that a change in personnel would have altered any outcomes. His results here basically indicate his place in the scheme of things; that of a second tier sprinter who is possibly faster than some ahead of him but possessing a much narrower skill set and range
Re: Re:
Nearly every team in a GT has limitations - Think Orica has done the best possible job to provide the right environment for their team leaders - Their only mistake was failing to get Yates into the break in Stage 11.
dirkprovin said:
Nearly every team in a GT has limitations - Think Orica has done the best possible job to provide the right environment for their team leaders - Their only mistake was failing to get Yates into the break in Stage 11.
- Jul 13, 2009
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For the most part, they've done the best job possible with the cattle than they selected. Not sure if getting Yates into the stg11 break would've made any material difference but I certainly feel they spent far too much time on the front of the peleton over the first 1 & 1/2 weeks.
Yates' tactical cluelessness cost him greivously on Blockhaus & again today, he got caught following the wrong wheels. Verona has been periodically useful rather than a major asset however Plaza has been incredible especially over the past week ... it would not surprise if he ends up top30 himself. If he is rested up, it would not surprise if he got a call up for the Vuelta ..... his odds of being re-signed (should he be wishing to continue) have most certainly shortened considerably.
yaco said:
For the most part, they've done the best job possible with the cattle than they selected. Not sure if getting Yates into the stg11 break would've made any material difference but I certainly feel they spent far too much time on the front of the peleton over the first 1 & 1/2 weeks.
Yates' tactical cluelessness cost him greivously on Blockhaus & again today, he got caught following the wrong wheels. Verona has been periodically useful rather than a major asset however Plaza has been incredible especially over the past week ... it would not surprise if he ends up top30 himself. If he is rested up, it would not surprise if he got a call up for the Vuelta ..... his odds of being re-signed (should he be wishing to continue) have most certainly shortened considerably.
Imagine if Chaves didn't have his injury and there had been 2 Yates in this Giro (and no crash)! Would have improved the situation, I'm sure.
- Jul 13, 2009
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Re:
Doesn't necessarily follow. On the plus side, it would most certainly allow Orica greater tactical flexibility (ie like 2016 Vuelta with Chaves/SY & sending one up the road) but that would also be contingent on SY being in top shape throughout.
SY is no better TTer than AY so no advance on that front. WOULD SY have avoided the Blockhaus crash that put AY minutes behind the other major contenders or would it be the case of both your GC men in the same boat ?
SY in the team would also have the potential to see TLAS (aka Ewan) squeezed out of the line-up; whilst I'd be perfectly fine with that, others might be outraged.
dusty red roads said:
Doesn't necessarily follow. On the plus side, it would most certainly allow Orica greater tactical flexibility (ie like 2016 Vuelta with Chaves/SY & sending one up the road) but that would also be contingent on SY being in top shape throughout.
SY is no better TTer than AY so no advance on that front. WOULD SY have avoided the Blockhaus crash that put AY minutes behind the other major contenders or would it be the case of both your GC men in the same boat ?
SY in the team would also have the potential to see TLAS (aka Ewan) squeezed out of the line-up; whilst I'd be perfectly fine with that, others might be outraged.
- Nov 2, 2009
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- Jul 13, 2009
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Yes, that is so but 2 GC men PLUS a labour intensive bunch sprinter ..... not looking a particular recipe for success. SY IN would almost certainly mean the 2nd support rider for Ewan squeezed out. If nothing else, this Giro clearly indicated that Ewan is battling big time to compete consistently in GT sprints without support on the level of his major competitors .... and as long as Orica is pursuing GC, they aren't in a position to provide this.
swuzzlebubble said:
Yes, that is so but 2 GC men PLUS a labour intensive bunch sprinter ..... not looking a particular recipe for success. SY IN would almost certainly mean the 2nd support rider for Ewan squeezed out. If nothing else, this Giro clearly indicated that Ewan is battling big time to compete consistently in GT sprints without support on the level of his major competitors .... and as long as Orica is pursuing GC, they aren't in a position to provide this.
Re: Re:
Think Plaza will get a gig seeing their is a TTT in stage 1 of the Vuelta and he's a good TT'er - Three GC riders for the Vuelta means Orica must be judicious with their team - I suspect Haig will miss out - Believe Haig is having another crack at the Tour of Slovenia - Though Majka will be hard to beat.
dirkprovin said:
Think Plaza will get a gig seeing their is a TTT in stage 1 of the Vuelta and he's a good TT'er - Three GC riders for the Vuelta means Orica must be judicious with their team - I suspect Haig will miss out - Believe Haig is having another crack at the Tour of Slovenia - Though Majka will be hard to beat.
Re: Re:
What I'll say about the relationship between sprinters and teams are that teams always think they can carry a top class sprinter and be serious about GC - I believe it can and has worked in the past but ultimately it's the sprinter who seeks greener pastures - Cavendish at Sky in 2013 is a perfect example - Had a good season including 3 stages at the TDF but it wasn't enough for the rider.
dirkprovin said:
What I'll say about the relationship between sprinters and teams are that teams always think they can carry a top class sprinter and be serious about GC - I believe it can and has worked in the past but ultimately it's the sprinter who seeks greener pastures - Cavendish at Sky in 2013 is a perfect example - Had a good season including 3 stages at the TDF but it wasn't enough for the rider.
- Jul 13, 2009
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Do you still really think they're going to take all 3 GC men to the Vuelta; sorry but I just can't see it happening and frankly White was probably talking out of his blowhole making such a statement as its just not sustainable. I'm leaning towards SY starting the Tour as lead man with Chaves more "play it by ear" given his lack of race miles then Chaves being main man for Vuelta with AY returning as 2nd option. That way we see all 3 being given "main man" at a GT.
I'm seeing Plaza as a near cert for the Vuelta. Howson is definitely Chaves' preferred right hand man but if he's had to go too deep at the Tour then his value will clearly be diminished for Vuelta. Plaza's TT capacity is such that he would not be a significant downgrade for the TTT. Haig is no TT specialist but neither is he a shocker, certainly stronger than Verona although both could get a call-up.
As for the rest of the squad, they'll probably have 2 big bodies as minders for the little guys; Cort as a quickman option and a rouleur from out of the Impey/Gerrans/Albasini trio (I'd personally lean towards either Impey or Albasini as they are stronger climbers & reasonable TTers but may depend on who goes to Tour. If only one of Haig/Verona are picked then Hayman or Juul-Jensen could be part of the equation.
yaco said:
Do you still really think they're going to take all 3 GC men to the Vuelta; sorry but I just can't see it happening and frankly White was probably talking out of his blowhole making such a statement as its just not sustainable. I'm leaning towards SY starting the Tour as lead man with Chaves more "play it by ear" given his lack of race miles then Chaves being main man for Vuelta with AY returning as 2nd option. That way we see all 3 being given "main man" at a GT.
I'm seeing Plaza as a near cert for the Vuelta. Howson is definitely Chaves' preferred right hand man but if he's had to go too deep at the Tour then his value will clearly be diminished for Vuelta. Plaza's TT capacity is such that he would not be a significant downgrade for the TTT. Haig is no TT specialist but neither is he a shocker, certainly stronger than Verona although both could get a call-up.
As for the rest of the squad, they'll probably have 2 big bodies as minders for the little guys; Cort as a quickman option and a rouleur from out of the Impey/Gerrans/Albasini trio (I'd personally lean towards either Impey or Albasini as they are stronger climbers & reasonable TTers but may depend on who goes to Tour. If only one of Haig/Verona are picked then Hayman or Juul-Jensen could be part of the equation.
- Jul 13, 2009
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With a little bit of reconsideration, I might amend that final selection to potentially include Docker but maybe moreso Mezgec who offers both some sprint support and potential in his own right and considerably greater overall utility in support of the GC men.
- Jul 12, 2012
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Re:
At 24 I don't think it's a GT to forget, just one to learn from. He should be 9th on GC after the TT and would have won white without the moto crash, but that's a part of racing. I don't think he had the legs to try anything this week and was hanging on.
Hopefully his stamina improves a little on these longer climbs as he gets more experienced, lets not forget Chavez was 26 before he podiumed a GT.
Valv.Piti said:
At 24 I don't think it's a GT to forget, just one to learn from. He should be 9th on GC after the TT and would have won white without the moto crash, but that's a part of racing. I don't think he had the legs to try anything this week and was hanging on.
Hopefully his stamina improves a little on these longer climbs as he gets more experienced, lets not forget Chavez was 26 before he podiumed a GT.
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