Joe Papp Interview

[131313]

sub-titled: "It's all Erik Saunders' Fault"

Here's the interview, and Erik Saunders' comments. Good times:

http://eriksaunders.net/?p=769

 

[JMBeaushrimp]

The funniest thing for me was the realization that Erik's that "black Ofoto dude". I'm assuming they're not swapping Christmas cards...

 

[flicker]

Joes' arrogance filters through my computer like a 50s horror monster....

 

[Anonymous]

Very old interview though. I watched it when it first came out, found it very refreshing and actually enjoyed it. Eriks just ****ed because he doesnt have his own wiki page.

 

[JMBeaushrimp]

Joes' arrogance filters through my computer like a 50s horror monster....

I'm coming to eat your brains....

Must be nice to look cute, cheat, enable, profit, and still not be in any real trouble...

I think that may change, coming up on the current scandal and all.

Let's see...

 

[spetsa]

I raced against Erik many times and the one that really stands out was his top 20 ride in the US Pro RR in 2004 against a stacked field. Not bad for a guy that couldn't sprint, couldn't climb couldn't TT, but was strong as hell some days. Oh yah, didn't he race for Successfull Living - a team that Chuck Coyle has recently mentioned- the next year? Just sayin....

 

[flicker]

I'm coming to eat your brains....

Must be nice to look cute, cheat, enable, profit, and still not be in any real trouble...

I think that may change, coming up on the current scandal and all.

Let's see...

Let's see J you talkin bout my Lord, next Governator of Texas? Jest sayin'

We have a sayin here in Florida, we might as well win, I mean(lets' just cheat to win.) Jest sayin!

It wasn't that Joe was a cheater, everyone needs an edge. It was the despicablle manner in which he cheated, and doggone it, he got caught.

And then he makes a video about it. He might as well be contacheat or arm ah forget it I got ahead of myself, lets try again... Lord Armstrong is not a cheat he is just mis-understood like me.

 

[JMBeaushrimp]

Let's see J you talkin bout my Lord, next Governator of Texas? Jest sayin'

We have a sayin here in Florida, we might as well win, I mean(lets' just cheat to win.) Jest sayin!

It wasn't that Joe was a cheater, everyone needs an edge. It was the despicablle manner in which he cheated, and doggone it, he got caught.

And then he makes a video about it. He might as well be contacheat or armar... ah forget it I got ahead of myself, lets try again... Lord Armstrong is not a cheat he is just mis-understood like me.

Easy there, tiger. I was talking about Joe looking so cute and innocent.

If your boy was half as cute as little Joe Papp, you might have an argument. Lance is old and crusty, and not half the liar Joe is. Step it up, B*tches... It's no fun having a lying cheat for a hero...

 

[flicker]

Easy there, tiger. I was talking about Joe looking so cute and innocent.

If your boy was half as cute as little Joe Papp, you might have an argument. Lance is old and crusty, and not half the liar Joe is. Step it up, B*tches... It's no fun having a lying cheat for a hero...

Your right, little Joe is pretty cute for a straight guy! I still do not understand why he would make a video like that.

My guy has a hella six-pack which is petty darn good for a crusty old guy.

 

[JMBeaushrimp]

Your right, little Joe is pretty cute for a straight guy! I still do not understand why he would make a video like that.

My guy has a hella six-pack which is petty darn good for a crusty old guy.

Maybe for a wee-boy straight scrawny guy. It would be like wrestling a cat for a chicken bone. That doesnt' sound right.... I'd still bet on me versus a cat, though.

I fight dirty...

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

I conducted that interview with Joe, over a year ago now. It's been up on the web for months.

Out of full disclosure, Erik contacted me about interviewing him earlier this year and we swapped messages. He candidly said in so many words he was tired of Joe and all the talk about doping, and told me he wanted to talk about what real pro cycling was like, and I said I was up for it. But he didn't seem like he had an axe to grind. Just an outspoken, honest guy. I somewhat casually asked Joe if he knew Erik and he said he had met him and raced against him, but didn't have anything negative to say about him, or much really one way or the other. I never got the impression from either that they ever got into it, or even really had that much interaction other than racing against one another on the circuit.

I have so far been unable to interview Erik as first my mother, then my father passed away this year and it's been hell dealing with it emotionally, and with the estate, family, bills, taxes, government, etc. I told Erik any interview would thus have to be on hold, and I would try to contact him later. He said he understood and that this was obviously a more important issue. So I don't know why Erik is upset at Joe, or perhaps me.

As to what one expects of Joe, or what they would have him do, even I don't know the answer to that other than to just keep telling the truth, and from my indication it seems that's what he did in this interview, and has tried to do ever since.

 

[straydog]

I conducted that interview with Joe...brevity

Alpe firstly, much as you may find it hard to believe, I really enjoyed your interview, when I first watched it during my recent....ahem....vacation.

Secondly, can I maybe suggest that before this turns into an anonymous Papp bashing session, that people take just a quick a moment to have a look in their dictionaries under "irony", and then maybe bear it in mind before they start landing some "fact" based character assassinations from the comfort of their pseudonyms. Look, anyone is perfectly entitled to believe who or what they want. Can we just try and leave out anything personal unless perhaps we feel brave enough to say who we are, as Joe (and Erik) have.

It doesn't appear that Erik is particularly p*ssed at you Alpe. It seems his aim is squared pretty solely on Joe. I don't know the guy, but I can understand him being p*ssed if he thinks Joe has suggested anything about him, whether that is true or not. To my mind, what really would be Joe's motivation in lying here? But, be that as it may, what I do find interesting is that if Erik's point was in asserting his innocence, did he really think he was helping us believe him when he reduced his argument to "you're stupid and you are going to prison". I hope when your present troubles are further behind you Alpe, that he does take up your offer to be interviewed. It will be interesting to see if he has anything else to say. I understand his anger, but his way of expressing it so far hasn't helped him as far as I can see.

One thing Alpe....can you please put up the pic from your vimeo page as your avatar here...I think it is much more appropriate considering our recent correspondences

 

[D-Queued]

Alpe firstly, much as you may find it hard to believe, I really enjoyed your interview, when I first watched it during my recent....ahem....vacation.

Secondly, can I maybe suggest that before this turns into an anonymous Papp bashing session ...

1. LOL

2. Agreed.

Joe is a friend of a very good - non-doping - friend of mine. He/Joe is high profile, obviously, and cannot avoid scrutiny even though he is nowhere near the F-factor or L-factor in importance. He is a real person, though, and he is never going to have to worry about having enough ill-gotten sporting gaints to start a save cancer foundation.

Dave.

 

[131313]

I conducted that interview with Joe, over a year ago now. It's been up on the web for months.

Sorry for the retread. I had no idea this was that old. My coach actually sent this to me, as he used to race with Saunders. He stumbled across it while looking to see if ES was talking smack yet about Chuck Coyle.

Sorry to hear about your loss(es). Obviously, that puts worrying about doping in cycling in it's proper perspective...

So I don't know why Erik is upset at Joe, or perhaps me.

Well, umm....without naming him directly, he basically suggests that a doped up Erik Saunders motoring past him on a climb is what led him to believe he had to dope to be competitive. I could see Saunders taking great exception to that, since he's long had the reputation as a loud-mouthed, annoying, talented and clean bike racer. He's a better racer than he's given credit according to some who've raced with him. My coach described him as an incredibly strong guy who unfortunately wasn't really great at anything, and wasn't willing to "play ball", either politically or with a needle.

 

[straydog]

1. LOL

2. Agreed.

Joe is a friend of a very good - non-doping - friend of mine. He/Joe is high profile, obviously, and cannot avoid scrutiny even though he is nowhere near the F-factor or L-factor in importance. He is a real person, though, and he is never going to have to worry about having enough ill-gotten sporting gaints to start a save cancer foundation.

Dave.

Scrutiny is one thing....and I think that Joe has on numerous occasions shown that he has never avoided scrutiny....actually, I think he has been pretty f***ing brave considering what he has gone through and continues to go through....just for one second consider how "fun" it is to read some of the more unsavoury sh*t some people think it is acceptable to post from the comfort of their bedsits.

Joe is an active voice of this debate, and in my opinion a valued one. Whether you like him or not, whether you believe him or not. So let's hope people at least listen to his voice (and others) rather than try and drown it out by brainless and oh so brave name calling.

And, here's an idea, why doesn't someone maybe ask him a question one day about something different...let's say...oh I don't know....riding a bike?....racing?....training? You know, cos I think he might have some pretty interesting stuff to say on that too.

 

[flicker]

Sorry Alpe for your loses. Thank you for everything you and the mods do on the clinic to help make cycling a clean and safe sport for all the jrs. women men amatuers pros and old farts. it is very noble what you and the mods do and put up with with some of the posters like me. i hope you get a laugh, I respect you and know by your posts you know the score in regards to pro cycling. I guess the best thing for healing is for things to come out in the open. Flicker.

 

[straydog]

Sorry for the retread. I had no idea this was that old. My coach actually sent this to me, as he used to race with Saunders. He stumbled across it while looking to see if ES was talking smack yet about Chuck Coyle.

Sorry to hear about your loss(es). Obviously, that puts worrying about doping in cycling in it's proper perspective...



Well, umm....without naming him directly, he basically suggests that a doped up Erik Saunders motoring past him on a climb is what led him to believe he had to dope to be competitive. I could see Saunders taking great exception to that, since he's long had the reputation as a loud-mouthed, annoying, talented and clean bike racer. He's a better racer than he's given credit according to some who've raced with him. My coach described him as an incredibly strong guy who unfortunately wasn't really great at anything, and wasn't willing to "play ball", either politically or with a needle.

A perfectly valid point 131313....and I understand that if what you have heard said about ES is true, that he maybe didn't articulate his rebuttal clearly. So I hope he takes the time to do so in the future. Maybe even talk to Joe about it? I just hope the insults and "you're going to prison" stuff gets edited next time, because I honestly don't think it is helping him or reflecting well on him.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

Well, umm....without naming him directly, he basically suggests that a doped up Erik Saunders motoring past him on a climb is what led him to believe he had to dope to be competitive. I could see Saunders taking great exception to that...

Except Joe doesn't mention him by name. Nor by team. Nor by specific event. No one really knew who he was talking about, nor could have really guessed with accuracy, nor ever even tried, until Erik alluded to it, and you pointed it out.

I'm not going to try to read too much between the lines on what Erik is writing, but when I do come across him, I will certainly ask him that. Why with all of cycling's problems in recent years, concentrate on Joe? I'd like to know where his focus lies, today, and his reasoning. If it upset him that much, I'm surprised he didn't talk to Joe directly about it. Or after I posted the interview make his own direct claims about doping and his beliefs. He doesn't need anyone to interview him for that.

As an aside, while Erik was using blanket language, I think it's a mistake for anyone to refer to Joe as being "stupid". He graduated summa cum laude from the University of Pittsburgh in the top 1% of his class, was granted a fellowship only offered to a few dozen people per year nationwide, is fluent in Spanish, very well cultured and knowledgeable about world affairs and history. Even the argument that he doped wouldn't make him stupid, unless one wishes to apply that same blanket rule to the other 90% of professional cyclists/athletes in the world (and many others in history). You might meet him and find him to be a complicated person with a difficult past, but you won't conclude that he's "stupid".

 

[131313]

maybe didn't articulate his rebuttal clearly. So I hope he takes the time to do so in the future. Maybe even talk to Joe about it? I just hope the insults and "you're going to prison" stuff gets edited next time, because I honestly don't think it is helping him or reflecting well on him.

I don't know ES well at all. I was just starting doing senior racing when he was at the end of his career. I ran into him on a few training rides and did a couple of local races with him. That said, even I know him well enough to find a lot of humor in your response. This is how this guy articulates things! In a 90 minute crit he spent 60 minutes of it telling various people "you're stupid" and "you really, really suck at bike racing", etc. I think the only words he said to me were "put your training wheels back on, Opie", or something to that effect.

For good or bad, he's one of those guys who doesn't think before he speaks. It all comes out unfiltered. I'll say this; his interview will a lot funnier than Papp's interview!

But back to the Papp thing, it's a tough situation. You see guys crushing you and you start thinking "man, these guys have to be juiced". And often times, they are. OTOH, sometimes you may be looking for an excuse, and not even realizing it. An excuse to explain your own poor performance (I've been there) or an excuse to "level the playing field" (I'm not willing to go there). The seeds of doubt planted by prevalent doping end up being almost as destructive as the doping itself, until you stop worrying about it when you're on the bike.

 

[fatandfast]

Except Joe doesn't mention him by name. Nor by team. Nor by specific event. No one really knew who he was talking about, nor could have really guessed with accuracy, nor ever even tried, until Erik alluded to it, and you pointed it out.

I'm not going to try to read too much between the lines on what Erik is writing, but when I do come across him, I will certainly ask him that. Why with all of cycling's problems in recent years, concentrate on Joe? I'd like to know where his focus lies, today, and his reasoning. If it upset him that much, I'm surprised he didn't talk to Joe directly about it. Or after I posted the interview make his own direct claims about doping and his beliefs. He doesn't need anyone to interview him for that.

As an aside, while Erik was using blanket language, I think it's a mistake for anyone to refer to Joe as being "stupid". He graduated summa cum laude from the University of Pittsburgh in the top 1% of his class, was granted a fellowship only offered to a few dozen people per year nationwide, is fluent in Spanish, very well cultured and knowledgeable about world affairs and history. Even the argument that he doped wouldn't make him stupid, unless one wishes to apply that same blanket rule to the other 90% of professional cyclists/athletes in the world (and many others in history). You might meet him and find him to be a complicated person with a difficult past, but you won't conclude that he's "stupid".

I conclude he is stupid for beating women. Never an excuse doped or not doped. 100's of guys have ridden at his level in the US..his name remains not for wins but as a doper and snitch. Beating women is enough to toss the rest of anything else. He should have taken Zen studies at U of P

 

[131313]

Except Joe doesn't mention him by name. Nor by team. Nor by specific event. No one really knew who he was talking about, nor could have really guessed with accuracy, nor ever even tried, until Erik alluded to it, and you pointed it out.

You're kidding me, right?

"an American sprinter, on a Swiss team, who's the same age as me (sic) in the Tour of Ireland around 2001"

really??

p.s. he just shoulda said "the black dude"

 

[straydog]

I don't know ES well at all. I was just starting doing senior racing when he was at the end of his career. I ran into him on a few training rides and did a couple of local races with him. That said, even I know him well enough to find a lot of humor in your response. This is how this guy articulates things! In a 90 minute crit he spent 60 minutes of it telling various people "you're stupid" and "you really, really suck at bike racing", etc. I think the only words he said to me were "put your training wheels back on, Opie", or something to that effect.

For good or bad, he's one of those guys who doesn't think before he speaks. It all comes out unfiltered. I'll say this; his interview will a lot funnier than Papp's interview!

But back to the Papp thing, it's a tough situation. You see guys crushing you and you start thinking "man, these guys have to be juiced". And often times, they are. OTOH, sometimes you may be looking for an excuse, and not even realizing it. An excuse to explain your own poor performance (I've been there) or an excuse to "level the playing field" (I'm not willing to go there). The seeds of doubt planted by prevalent doping end up being almost as destructive as the doping itself, until you stop worrying about it when you're on the bike.

these are also good points 131313...(is there a way I can abbreviate that nick?)

I am a particular fan of Chad G....there is something in his attitude and his unwillingness to go further than "you guys suck as much as you did 20 years ago" that I really really enjoy. It is refreshing, funny and honest.

As to seeing others outperform you...and the questions it raises...I admire your personal stance...kind of like Brad Wiggins who basically says "I can't worry about what the other guy is doing"....you can actually never argue with that mentality....just to add from my own experience...and I raced prior to the really efficacious juice becoming more widely available...doping in europe then wasn't cloak and dagger at all...and didn't carry the stigma it does today. I never wondered what guys were on...ever...I knew cos I saw them taking it from the day I arrived....and not doing it kind of felt like being the uncool kid who wouldn't inhale the J at school. I don't think guys really spent any real time pondering what worked or didn't...they just did it because everyone else was.

of course I am sure it wasn't everyone...but that was definitely the perception.

 

[131313]

You're kidding me, right?

"an American sprinter, on a Swiss team, who's the same age as me (sic) in the Tour of Ireland around 2001"

really??

I'm sorry to reply to myself, but it took me less than 30 seconds to piece it together given Papp's description:

http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/results/2001/may01/fbdmilkras01.shtml

I only see one American on a Swiss team, with a Canadian and an Australian teammate...

 

[Race Radio]

I know Joe from the forum and from e-mails. He seems like a nice guy who, understandably, has had a lot of time for introspection and reflection. He is in a very challenging position and has dealt with it as well as possible. I see little value in attacking a guy who is trying hard to clean up a very messed up life.

I have not talked with Eric for years, maybe 10. I used to ride with him and others quite a bit. I can say that the guy trains very hard. 30 hour weeks were not unusual. 7 hours in the pouring rain were not unusual. The guy really put the time in and laid it all out for the sport. He raced for one of the top amateur teams in France, if not THE top. Vendee U. I gave up on the sport before I went through the stuff Eric went through.

I might be wrong but I think he was living in Doug's garage, then with his brother in the desert. While it is possible that he doped I really don't know how he would afford it. If I was Eric, and I trained insanely hard, lived in crap places in France, traveled all around the US in a van chasing primes, achieved success through hard work, and did not dope I would be ****ed at the insinuation. I likely would have have been much less understanding with my response.

It is perfectly possible that the improvement that Joe saw from Eric's junior years to his Pro years came from a needle. It is also likely that this "Sudden" Improvement came from a ridiculous amount of work, a few years racing at a very high level, and the need to earn a very meager living.

 

[straydog]

I conclude he is stupid for beating women. Never an excuse doped or not doped. 100's of guys have ridden at his level in the US..his name remains not for wins but as a doper and snitch. Beating women is enough to toss the rest of anything else. He should have taken Zen studies at U of P

and here comes the first bedsit hitman...do you know what I conclude stupid is?

Anonymously spewing hate and gossip at someone brave enough to put their head above the parapet in a public forum....without noticing that it seems kind of cowardly...and er....stupid.

Well done for coming first in that race though.