Joe Papp on the BBC

[JRTinMA]

You think so? I find that in nearly all Clinic subject matter, the motivation isn't in question, it's the actions that are.


Did I say "highly beneficial"? No.

I don't really get why you want argue against things that you just made up. We're all different I suppose.

Motivation is behind a lot of it. Nationalism, jealousy, love and hate all play a part. You did not say highly beneficial, I did. You said beneficial, so to your point I don't see how putting Joe in jail is beneficial. He cooperated with USDOJ and USADA and his sentence should reflect that cooperation IMO.

 

[cleverhans]

Libertine's avatar

Dude, where'd the ladies go? One of my favorite features of the clinic!

 

[python]

unlike them, joe's contrition seems genuine to me.

mark, i know you speak your mind but look at a bigger pic - effectiveness of fighting drugs...will sending joe behind bars for a long time help the cause ?

 

[JRTinMA]

fakes always get what they deserve. they want to gloat over others getting it wrong when their infatuation is threatened with prison whilst pretending defending joe from essentially the same outcome.

It takes a big man to admit that Python but I always knew this about you.

 

[python]

jees can we get on topic about joe ?

no one is interested about who is whose domain or if one poster imagines other posters are his fans.

or you just interested in derailing threads ?

 

[JRTinMA]

jees can we get on topic about joe ?

no one is interested about who is whose domain or if one poster imagines other posters are his fans.

or you just interested in derailing threads ?

You came in and commented on me and started the derailing.

 

[python]

get over yourself, or who's your fan, post about joe.

 

[MarkvW]

unlike them, joe's contrition seems genuine to me.

mark, i know you speak your mind but look at a bigger pic - effectiveness of fighting drugs...will sending joe behind bars for a long time help the cause ?

I think you misread me. If Papp really helped nail his suppliers, then he should get a big break. A deal is a deal. I see no point in pounding a first time offender with minimal chance of reoffending.

 

[python]

I think you misread me. If Papp really helped nail his suppliers, then he should get a big break. A deal is a deal.

i agree. if i missed your point, my apologies. from what we know so far, joe cooperated extensively. obviously, the details are not known.

 

[JRTinMA]

get over yourself, or who's your fan, post about joe.

Again I was posting in this thread about Joe. YOU came in and trolled me.

 

[python]

Hearing something new sometimes requires listening to it.

Dave.

dave, i think as his previews post shows, mark is ready to listen.

 

[JRTinMA]

If somebody wants to know something specific why don't you send Joe a PM. He may answer you with information he is able to discuss and it will leave little room for speculation. He does not intend to post in the thread, and based on the varied opinions I can't really blame him.

 

[Epicycle]

Judges know that if they don't reward the snitches, then the cops will never be able to work their way up the supply chain. I doubt that Papp's very long sentencing continuances relate to burning his customers (or at least I hope they don't). I expect the continuances relate to the feds' attempts to go upstream. If Papp burned a major supplier, I hope he gets a big break.

Joe's supplier was no secret, Shandong Kexing Bioproducts. He made that clear on his website he used to sell EPO and the Department of Justice has confirmed it. Maybe he helped the Feds put pressure on the Chinese company but I kind of doubt it. The US government already had a major amount of leverage against Chinese pharma in the run-up to the Olympics and I know they were already taking advantage of it before they found out about Joe's dealing.

I feel for Joe to a certain extent but at the same time he's not being made an example because he was doping. He aggressively marketed EPO, which is a potentially lethal drug, we all know how dangerous it is. No dealer has ever used the internet to market EPO directly to athletes the way Joe did. His goal was to provide the best customer service and grow his business. And he did this while he was ostensibly helping USADA. He even provided extensive info in the Eposino forum about beating the tests. He didn't do the same for the health risks. Joe's actions were incredibly reckless, I don't think I can overstate that. And I don't think any reasonable person can deny that the government has very good reason for levying charges against him, which he pleaded guilty to, that carry serious jail time.

 

[python]

i appreciate mark's open-mindless and dave's concern for the same.

 

[D-Queued]

dave, i think as his previews post shows, mark is ready to listen.

Thanks python.

I guess my own filters need cleaning.

Dave.

 

[python]

Joe's supplier was no secret, Shandong Kexing Bioproducts. He made that clear on his website he used to sell EPO and the Department of Justice has confirmed it. Maybe he helped the Feds put pressure on the Chinese company but I kind of doubt it. The US government already had a major amount of leverage against Chinese pharma in the run-up to the Olympics and I know they were already taking advantage of it before they found out about Joe's dealing.

I feel for Joe to a certain extent but at the same time he's not being made an example because he was doping. He aggressively marketed EPO, which is a potentially lethal drug, we all know how dangerous it is. No dealer has ever used the internet to market EPO directly to athletes the way Joe did. His goal was to provide the best customer service and grow his business. And he did this while he was ostensibly helping USADA. He even provided extensive info in the Eposino forum about beating the tests. He didn't do the same for the health risks. Joe's actions were incredibly reckless, I don't think I can overstate that. And I don't think any reasonable person can deny that the government has very good reason for levying charges against him, which he pleaded guilty to, that carry serious jail time.

to the bolded...i agree with you. your posts are usually, well argued.

there is no challenging that joe's drug dealing actions were reckless if not crazy considering he was usada witness at the same time.

my only point is that he is down. he was defeated by his own recklessness and he does not hide that he deeply and sincerely regrets his actions and he's terrified.

what's the point in publicly kicking a man who shows remorse, cooperates and is a fellow poster ? you didn't but some did.

i say, let the process take it's turn and hope that drug dealing was delivered a punch whatever happens.

 

[MarkvW]

[ignoring the unhealthy obsession with self and the persistent attempt at derailing of the good thread]
dave, i think as his previews post shows, mark is ready to listen.

Papp will be free to talk after his sentencing. I'll listen then.

I can forgive Floyd everything except his taking money from people who loved and trusted him under false pretenses (and his treatment of LeMond). I can't forgive that yet. I think Floyd is a good person who is seriously adrift right now. I believe Floyd's dope tales are the truth. Floyd still has a place in cycling, at some level, if he wants it.

Papp has no place in cycling. He dealt in dangerous doping products and he corrupted Floyd's drug hearing (fortunately not in a material way). I believe what he says about doping, because it would be against his self interest to lie with his sentencing still pending. Papp is entirely about self-interest--and his continuing self-promotion as a cyclist is in very poor taste.

The empathy, hurt, and betrayal that Floyd causes do not dilute my acceptance of the doping history he has recently related. The disgust that Papp causes does not cause me to disbelieve him.

The problem with Floyd and Papp, though, is that if you want to make a rational argument (rather than an emotional or intuitive one) defending their credibility, you have to support that argument with ample corroboration, because each man's character for truthfulness is bad. Most of that corroboration, in both cases, is presently behind a federal veil. Time will hopefully tell.

 

[JRTinMA]

troll babble

You continue to comment on the poster not the post.

 

[python]

mark, i was with you untill you started to bring floyd into the picture.

i think i understand where you are coming from, but i did not see floyd mentioned in this thread, let alone i personally very seldom mention him, endorse him or criticize him. his story is way more complicated and honestly has no place here.

 

[patricknd]

to the bolded...i agree with you. your posts are usually, well argued.

there is no challenging that joe's drug dealing actions were reckless if not crazy considering he was usada witness at the same time.

my only point is that he is down. he was defeated by his own recklessness and he does not hide that he deeply and sincerely regrets his actions and he's terrified.

what's the point in publicly kicking a man who shows remorse, cooperates and is a fellow poster ? you didn't but some did.

i say, let the process take it's turn and hope that drug dealing was delivered a punch whatever happens.

Reckless? How about criminal, does that ring a bell? Rationalize much?

 

[I Watch Cycling In July]

'...'Papp is entirely about self-interest'...'

Thing is, amongst ex dopers that spit in the soup, there will be some who are truly reformed characters, others who are acting purely in self interest and others whose actions are a combination of both. If external observers were any good at identifying which was which, there would be a list of people revered as selfless soup-spitting anti-doping heroes, as well as a shit list.

After careful research, I've compile the following comprehensive list of soup-spitters who are revered as heroes and have never been accused of acting in self interest:
























Get it?

 

[TexPat]

Wholeheartedly agree except I posit that we always act in our own self-interest whether good or bad.

 

[Benotti69]

the pro peloton is full of reckless and criminal people who make Joe look like someone stealing candy from children.

But easy to kick Joe and try and divert the attention from other much much bigger fish.

Joe comes on here regularly as himself, not another name and offers his honest opinions, a whole lot more than most of us are doing. For that i applaud him. He is trying to give something back again more than most who rode a bike for money while taking illegal substances.

As far as we know none of Joe's clients died while using what he supplied but riders have died on pro teams while using what their DS supplied and continue to supply today.

 

[andy1234]

the pro peloton is full of reckless and criminal people who make Joe look like someone stealing candy from children.But easy to kick Joe and try and divert the attention from other much much bigger fish.

Joe comes on here regularly as himself, not another name and offers his honest opinions, a whole lot more than most of us are doing. For that i applaud him. He is trying to give something back again more than most who rode a bike for money while taking illegal substances.

As far as we know none of Joe's clients died while using what he supplied but riders have died on pro teams while using what their DS supplied and continue to supply today.

No it Isn't Benotti, Yet again, you are full of s**t.

How much time have you spent around the pro peleton? Any? at all?

Reckless - If you spend most of your days on Internet forums, then walking the dog probably seems reckless.
Criminal - Some, but no more than normal society.

You have a contempt for professional cycling that has grown with each post you make in here. Guess what, this is not real life. Its like a cult. If you say it enough times and everyone in the room agrees with you, it must be true?

From your posts I believe you live in Italy?
Where you cant walk the streets for gangland killings, politicians sleeping with minors and corruption everywhere you look.

Except I have been there many times, and all I have found is warm and friendly people, colleagues who are honest and hardworking, beautiful countryside and great food.

Tell me, how could that possibly be?

 

[Berzin]

The pro peloton is full of reckless and criminal people who make Joe look like someone stealing candy from children.

But easy to kick Joe and try and divert the attention from other much much bigger fish.

Joe comes on here regularly as himself, not another name and offers his honest opinions, a whole lot more than most of us are doing. For that i applaud him. He is trying to give something back again more than most who rode a bike for money while taking illegal substances.

Joe Papp did what he did and did so knowing it was wrong. He is an educated man who had other avenues to pursue to make a living, but chose to pedal PEDs on the internet.

Society feels no pity towards street dealers who peddle crack, crystal meth and heroin. But this suburban middle-class kid selling steroids online should get a break why?

Because it's easier for many on this forum to emphasize with Papp. He is not a character that is demonized by society. He is the prototypical suburban kid-next-door, smart enough to articulate his circumstances as "punishment enough".

I'm of two minds about this. I feel he found religion not from some genuine sense of remorse but as an attempt to keep himself out of jail.

If the judge gets a sense he was just a dumb kid who strayed from the straight and narrow, he'll get off with no jail time. All the judge has to do is take one look at him and if he feels that Papp could be his own son, he's home free.

I feel that society being how it is, PED use has become de rigueur amongst those for whom vanity and insecurity have taken over their lives. In the coming years PED use will become no big deal, the more aging yuppies consume HgH and testosterone in search of that elusive fountain of youth. Eventually we will look upon this time in sport and consider it no big deal.

But what Papp engaged in was different. For those who want to see guys like Armstrong do jail time for playing a dominant role in procuring PEDs and fostering an environment within his team that drug use was not only mandatory for Tour selection but essential for their success, then I don't see why Papp should get off just because of his recently-found state of contrition.